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NonCatholic
Guest
Wow we have the history of denominations! So now what? Do you suppose God is a respecter of denominations in His will to save whom He chooses?
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Bill_Pick
Guest
he does not have to prove the bible does, read matt 16-18;19
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seekdatruth
Guest
Personally, I’m not too big on the “one true church” claims by anyone. That being said, I believe that staying in the Catholic Church, despite any personal disagreements, is the only way it’s ever going to change, IF IT NEEDS TO. <–Key phrase there. If everyone keeps breaking off and doing their own thing, what good does it do? People get so lost in doubt and confusion about WHICH denomination is the RIGHT denomination, which one is best suited to their personal preferences and comforts. It becomes a focus on “ME, ME, ME”
The differences and arguments between the myriad Christian denominations in itself can instill the type of doubt, which satan loves to foster and exploit. What one should really focus on is the path to their salvation. No church can do all the work for you. Membership of ANY church is not going to necessarily get you to Heaven, based on following the rules alone. You must be an active participant in your own salvation.
Also, if you believe that salvation is pre-destined by God, then why should anyone try to do right? How do you know you’re a “chosen one”? Why are we so obviously expected to take some responsibility for our own salvation throughout Scripture, if it doesn’t matter what we do when some of us are saved and some aren’t? Why should I bother? I was led to the Catholic Church, and if it’s wrong, and I have no control over my own salvation, then I guess I’ll burn because it’s God’s will I burn so YOU can be saved. I just don’t see how this is congruent with the general message of the Gospels or anything in Scripture.
The differences and arguments between the myriad Christian denominations in itself can instill the type of doubt, which satan loves to foster and exploit. What one should really focus on is the path to their salvation. No church can do all the work for you. Membership of ANY church is not going to necessarily get you to Heaven, based on following the rules alone. You must be an active participant in your own salvation.
Also, if you believe that salvation is pre-destined by God, then why should anyone try to do right? How do you know you’re a “chosen one”? Why are we so obviously expected to take some responsibility for our own salvation throughout Scripture, if it doesn’t matter what we do when some of us are saved and some aren’t? Why should I bother? I was led to the Catholic Church, and if it’s wrong, and I have no control over my own salvation, then I guess I’ll burn because it’s God’s will I burn so YOU can be saved. I just don’t see how this is congruent with the general message of the Gospels or anything in Scripture.
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With_Questions
Guest
Just did.
Funny thing though. My translation did not say that the church of Jesus Christ exists today in one and only one denomination, let alone identify which denomination that is.
But who knows. I don’t know Greek, maybe that is what it says in the Greek.
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nsper7
Guest
Wouldn’t the Catholic Church say one is Saved by ‘following the rules’ (i.e. not committing mortal sin)?
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stbruderklaus
Guest
The Greek term translated into Church in the New Testament is “ekklesia,” which means something like “a group called out together.” A gathering of those called is what the Greek term means… or, as Luther put it, the gathering together of people of faith in Christ around the Scrptures (The Word of God, specifically the Gospel of salvation in Christ) and the Sacraments.
That term grew an awful lot over the last two milleniums… and not always in helpful ways.
Peace.
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NonCatholic
Guest
Do you get that revelation from God or man?
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NonCatholic
Guest
I sincerely hope you are able to see now. God bless.Personally, I’m not too big on the “one true church” claims by anyone. That being said, I believe that staying in the Catholic Church, despite any personal disagreements, is the only way it’s ever going to change, IF IT NEEDS TO. <–Key phrase there. If everyone keeps breaking off and doing their own thing, what good does it do? People get so lost in doubt and confusion about WHICH denomination is the RIGHT denomination, which one is best suited to their personal preferences and comforts. It becomes a focus on “ME, ME, ME”
The differences and arguments between the myriad Christian denominations in itself can instill the type of doubt, which satan loves to foster and exploit. **This is very true, which is probably why Christians focus on Christ.**What one should really focus on is the path to their salvation. No church can do all the work for you. Membership of ANY church is not going to necessarily get you to Heaven, based on following the rules alone. You must be an active participant in your own salvation.
Also, if you believe that salvation is pre-destined by God, then why should anyone try to do right? Because God told us and enabled Christians to. How do you know you’re a “chosen one”? Romans 8:16 “The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,” Why are we so obviously expected to take some responsibility for our own salvation throughout Scripture, if it doesn’t matter what we do when some of us are saved and some aren’t? **The fact that you have to ask may be reason for concern. **Why should I bother? I was led to the Catholic Church, and if it’s wrong, and I have no control over my own salvation, then I guess I’ll burn because it’s God’s will I burn so YOU can be saved. **Romans 9:16-18 16 “So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.” ** I just don’t see how this is congruent with the general message of the Gospels or anything in Scripture.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
The Catholic Church is God’s revelation to man.
Jesus only started one Church. He gave his authority to his apostles and told us to listen to them.
The Church has always listened and preserved the truth they taught.
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stbruderklaus
Guest
The search of each Christian for a communal home-- at the parish / congregation level, or the greater assembly at the confessional level-- should never be a pursuit of comfort. It should always be a pursuit of Truth.
When honest and open minded Lutherans and Romans dialogue about why they are convinced that their communion’s expression is more correct, what they are really discussing is which expression of the Church is more True. Romans and Lutherans, if they are genuinely seeking Truth, will come as close as their frail humanity will allow them to embracing it. This is why so many Lutherans and Romans look at each other in charity these days, recognizing each other as Christian brethren, rather than the hyperbolic vitriol that plagued us for nearly 500 years. We see similar things afoot between Romans and Anglicans, Orthodox, and other Christians as well.
In our family, we have discussed before, that it is possible that a Roman parish could be the most clear witness to Biblical Chrsitian Truth in any given location… but so long as we have access to an orthodox Lutheran expression of the faith, we are still convinced that this is the clearest in search for Truth. Doesn’t have anything to do with comfort…
Cheers.
When honest and open minded Lutherans and Romans dialogue about why they are convinced that their communion’s expression is more correct, what they are really discussing is which expression of the Church is more True. Romans and Lutherans, if they are genuinely seeking Truth, will come as close as their frail humanity will allow them to embracing it. This is why so many Lutherans and Romans look at each other in charity these days, recognizing each other as Christian brethren, rather than the hyperbolic vitriol that plagued us for nearly 500 years. We see similar things afoot between Romans and Anglicans, Orthodox, and other Christians as well.
In our family, we have discussed before, that it is possible that a Roman parish could be the most clear witness to Biblical Chrsitian Truth in any given location… but so long as we have access to an orthodox Lutheran expression of the faith, we are still convinced that this is the clearest in search for Truth. Doesn’t have anything to do with comfort…
Cheers.
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catholic_daddy
Guest
That’s right on. When you stand before God one day, the only thing that will matter is whether or not God’s Spirit lives inside you due to the new birth. The RCC won’t be able to stand next to you and say, “He’s one of us. Give him a break.”. Not gonna happen.
Also, the only thing that makes any group part of the Universal (catholic) Church is faithfulness to God’s word. You can trace your lineage back to Adam’s house cat and spend eternity in hell if you vere from His word. The jews thought their lineage back to Abraham would get them in. Jesus and had just a little bit to say about that!
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stbruderklaus
Guest
Yep, Jesus only established One Church, and sent out 11 Apostles to spread it (minus Judas.) Then they added another to fill Judas’ shoes… and Paul… hundreds others as they moved throughout the world. Funny story… you know the Church at Rome wasn’t even established by an Apostle… Peter and Paul arrived there later, after it was already established by Christians after the first persecution in Jerusalem.
And we still listen to those original Apostles today, through the Scriptures they penned and gave to the Church… and we hold in high regard those who follow in the Apostle’s footsteps by presenting the Apostolic doctrine.
Good stuff.
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catholic_daddy
Guest
They’re all dead. But thank God their writings aren’t. All who listen and obey are part of the one true Universal (catholic) Church.
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Bill_Pick
Guest
and lets all remember they all die as martyrs , but john
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seekdatruth
Guest
I’m able to see only that you can take snippets of Scripture to make a certain point. I equally could do the very same thing in the favor of the Catholic Church. I could do that and make it sound like Buddah is right, or Islam, or Scientology, or the cult of mashed potatoes, anything.
What is the GENERAL point of Jesus Christ’s message? What do you think THAT is? If you read the entire Bible, what do you think you would conclude if not using any type of bias toward a specific religion? Do you think God’s message would be that only some of us are saved and only because he said so? Do you think that all evil on this earth is caused by God himself then? THat some of us are set up just to fail? That’s a pretty bleak outlook on life.
I asked: “Why are we so obviously expected to take some responsibility for our own salvation throughout Scripture, if it doesn’t matter what we do when some of us are saved and some aren’t?”
You said: “The fact that you have to ask may be reason for concern”
The fact that ANYONE should ask that question is a reason for concern! THAT’S MY POINT! This is to show why this type of OSAS and pre-destiny is dangerous and faulty thinking.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Nothing personal, but I believe Luther rejected the apostles and substituted his own understanding.
He might have been sincere, and he might be forgiven, but he was not following the command to listen to those sent by Jesus.
I think he fits this description:
Acts 15
23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.
I believe Luther has caused much trouble, including wars and heresies, by his refusal to listen to the apostles.
Can you understand how I could reach this conclusion?
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catholic_daddy
Guest
I say Amen to all of that!!!
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seekdatruth
Guest
Yes, we agree on that. I hope you remember from my posts before, that I see Lutherans as brethren on the same track, more or less.
Unfortunately for most people, COMFORT is the big word when deciding on what church to attend. I’ve caught **myself **in that trap. Again, my beef isn’t with Lutherans or Methodists, however, I do see this campaign that many denoms have against us as more harm than good. Think about the differences between a Protestant pastor and a Catholic priest. A Catholic priest is expected to remain celibate and devote his entire life to God, undivided against worldly cares, such as family. I can’t even properly divide my time between this forum and MY family, how could I or my husband be a person who is a pastor, and not be divided to some degree? Think about this though: How does that hurt the soul of anyone who decides to not be a priest? If one can’t remain celibate, then it’s perfectly fine to get married and have a family. You are considered righteous in raising Christian children and being examples for our fellow men and women, and can be just as much of a saint as your priest might be. We must all find our proper calling and follow it. It’s not easy or comfortable all the time, but if we are doing God’s will, then YAY!!!
I heard too many times of pastors’ children growing up little hellions because Daddy was too busy worrying about the salvation of his congregation than that of his own family. It can happen to ANYONE, but maybe this could have been avoided if he’d picked one vocation and stuck to it? My neighbor’s kids have turned out pretty good, but then his congregation is TINY. Good for him!
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catholic_daddy
Guest
It is interesting to note why the Council had to send those messengers to that city–there were people there who were adding to the simple gospel of grace! That problem continues to this very day
Nothing personal, but I believe Luther rejected the apostles and substituted his own understanding.
He might have been sincere, and he might be forgiven, but he was not following the command to listen to those sent by Jesus.
I think he fits this description:
Acts 15
23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.
I believe Luther has caused much trouble, including wars and heresies, by his refusal to listen to the apostles.
Can you understand how I could reach this conclusion?
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Not exactly accurate.
This was a developing doctrine.
Men of good will were on both sides of the issue and they simply wanted the issue resolved.
They turned to the authority created by Jesus to answer their question.
Unfortunately, men without authority had previously attempted to make doctrinal decisions. This added to the confusion.
The decision of the Church ended the confusion.
Sound familiar?
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