A Historical Dare to Protestants

[elvisman]

Which explains why Catholic Christianity also admits to the assertion that the fullness of the Gospel is found in Orthodox Christianity.

jonathon

Please provide proof that this has been declared by the Church.
**If I spoke out of line, I will admit it. **

 

[jblake]

Sounds to me like he was referring to the Rebels

Such as the pope who was excommunicated by a Church Council, but for political reasons not excommunicated by his successor.

Or maybe the Pope that wilfully chose not to submit to those in authority over him.

Or maybe the Pope that practised and endorsed simony.

jonathon

 

[catholic_daddy]

Not very charitable, are we, stbruderklaus? It also happens to be against the forum rules to use these sorts of derogatory remarks.

All I ask is that you show some courtesy - before you get reported to the mods.

Come on, Elvis. Get a grip on yourself! That was just some tough love he was dealin’. I don’t see him trying to be uncharitable; I see him trying to call it as best he sees it. And he’s pretty insightful!

 

[mmplps7783]

Belong to the Church established by Jesus himself. There is only one (Matt. 16:15-19, Matt. 18:15-18).
As I pointed out in an earlier post, Paul calls this Church (there was only one):
"…the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

In John 16:13-15, Jesus tells his Apostles:
"But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.
Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you."

He didn’t say this to any other Church but the one he established.
Finally, Jesus thought that his Church was important enough to identify his very self with it (Acts 9:4-5):
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?"
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

Do you notice that Jesus didn’t say, “Why are you persecuting my Church”? That’s what Saul was doing.
Jesus said, "Why are you persecuting ME."

If it’s that important to Jesus - it should be that important to you and me.

God Bless.

?
I don’t doubt that Jesus is the church. And I know that as Christians we must assemble. Where I have the problem is the legalism of organized religion (not just the Catholic religion). What gives you the understanding that the verses you quoted were saying that this is the only true religion. I don’t debate those scriptures. What I debate is the translation and the context with which you use it:confused. I still don’t see it.

 

[elvisman]

Come on, Elvis. Get a grip on yourself! That was just some tough love he was dealin’. I don’t see him trying to be uncharitable; I see him trying to call it as best he sees it. And he’s pretty insightful!

**Ummmm . . . right. **

**Anyway, it’s a derogatory term and he used it for that purpose. **That is not only uncharitable - it’s against the forum rules.

It would be the same if I went around referring to Protestants as “infidels” becuase they reject certain teachings of Christ. That would be uncharitable and immature. It would also get me kicked off this forum.

**PS - You never answered my question. **
Why do you call yourself Catholic Daddy if you’re clearly not Catholic.

 

[elvisman]

Such as the pope who was excommunicated by a Church Council, but for political reasons not excommunicated by his successor.

Or maybe the Pope that wilfully chose not to submit to those in authority over him.

Or maybe the Pope that practised and endorsed simony.

jonathon

**Apparently you haven’t been reading the last few pages of posts. **Evil acts from individuals do not nullify the Church.

As for St. Paul - and Jesus condemning the traditions of men, why don’t we address:
Altar calls, rejection of regenerative baptism, rejection of the Real Presense in the Eucharist, accepting Jesus as personal Lord and savior, etc.

These are traditions of men.

 

[catholic_daddy]

**And there is not one **Protestant Church that is true to his heart and his word. If there was one, they would adhere to everything he taught - not just the buffet-style faith that is present in so many of them. “I’ll believe this, but the Real Presence? That’s weird!” Some of this - none of that.

No, my confused friend, o****nly the Catholic Church contains the fullness of the Gospel.

PS - Why do you identify yourself as Catholic Daddy?

Well we will see what Jesus has to say about that one day. Meanwhile we will stay busy evangelizing the lost and discipling the saved in the power of His Spirit.
PS-My Dad was a Roman Catholic.

 

[Matariel]

… Roman Catholics are most defined by their Roman dogmas and canons… it seems a reasonable title for them.

Um, no… you really shouldn’t use the slang term “Roman” or “Roman Catholic” because the Catholic Church has 22 rites other than the Roman-based Latin Rite and it leaves out the Eastern Rites, such as the Melkite Catholics and Chaldean Catholics. So you shouldn’t use that slangname since it isn’t really representative of our Church…

 

[Katrina5]

I understand.

---

The problem with changing churches every time you disagree with something is that your search for the truth will never end.
Jesus established ONE Church with ONE authority (Matt. 16:15-10, Matt. 18:15-18) and he felt so strongly about it that he identified his very self with it (Acts 9:7).

---

As for the scripture reference - it was only to show that pure and undefiled religion is good. Some people are offended by that word because they don’t really understand what it means.

That’s a good point-- Church shopping, picking and choosing until you find the “Perfect Fit”-- never fails to disappoint.
When my sister left the Catholic Church after being “saved”, she bounced around at least twenty times in about 30 years altogether. Part of the time, she had no church. This bouncing was usually related to who the Preacher was, or something that he said that didn’t line up with her Personal Revelation, or someone else starting up a new church that looked better.
It is tempting to do this, when someone hurts my feelings at my church, or something happens that I don’t like. In fact it happened recently, and I thought about finding a different (but still Catholic) church to go to where I could be anonymous. (Sit in the back and rush out at the end of mass…?)
I went to Eucharistic Adoration this afternoon, and as usual, I am so GLAD I didn’t do something as stupid as leaving this wonderful parish family!
Being in the presence of Christ, in the quiet serene church, I just knew things would be ok again. And they already are.
The people make up the church, and we are all human.
We can’t let humans determine our relationship with God. They can determine our relationships with each other, but not with God.
This is one of those things I have to keep learning over and over again.

 

[elvisman]

?
I don’t doubt that Jesus is the church. And I know that as Christians we must assemble. Where I have the problem is the legalism of organized religion (not just the Catholic religion). What gives you the understanding that the verses you quoted were saying that this is the only true religion. I don’t debate those scriptures. What I debate is the translation and the context with which you use it:confused. I still don’t see it.

What do you mean by “legalism of organized religion”?
Wold you prefer disorganized religion? (kidding)

When I hear that phrase, I think of people who want their cake and eat it, too. It’s called “Cafeteria Christianity”. You take what you like and throw away the rest.

Whether you like it or not, Jesus set up a Church with Authority to bind and loose in earth and in heaven. He didn’t take that lightly and neither should we.

Consider the Early Church Fathers - some of whom knew the Apostles. At any rate, they were so very close to the time of Jesus - and they were transparently and unashamedly Catholic.

One of the earlies documented fathers, St. Ignatius of Antioch, on the way to his death, wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans. In it, he said:
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

 

[catholic_daddy]

Apparently you haven’t been reading the last few pages of posts. **Evil acts from individuals do not **nullify the Church.

As for St. Paul - and Jesus condemning the traditions of men, why don’t we address:
Altar calls, rejection of regenerative baptism, rejection of the Real Presense in the Eucharist, accepting Jesus as personal Lord and savior, etc.

These are traditions of men.

You are talking about nuances of churches that are seeing millions of ADULTS born from above and baptized each year worldwide. They are an ARMY out there battling Satan for the souls of men. They don’t do it perfectly, but they do it big time! If I were you I would worry more about what you are doing to fulfill the Great Commission.
God Bless

 

[elvisman]

Well we will see what Jesus has to say about that one day. Meanwhile we will stay busy evangelizing the lost and discipling the saved in the power of His Spirit.
PS-My Dad was a Roman Catholic.

We already KNOW what Jesus said about that:

Matt 18:17-18
If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Luke 10:16
*The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me. *

John 20:22-23:
***And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. ***
Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

 

[Katrina5]

?
I don’t doubt that Jesus is the church. And I know that as Christians we must assemble. Where I have the problem is the legalism of organized religion (not just the Catholic religion). What gives you the understanding that the verses you quoted were saying that this is the only true religion. I don’t debate those scriptures. What I debate is the translation and the context with which you use it:confused. I still don’t see it.

Did you take DEBATE in College? The first rule, since the teams can be assigned to either side of an issue even if they disagree, is “Never question the motive of your opponent.”
If we want to debate and dialogue, and share here, we have to keep that in mind.
Some posters on here are unclear where they are coming from, like in which faith they were raised. I guess that helps keep it all in perspective.

This is the second time you have used the term “legalism” or “legalistic”. What do you mean by that, and why do you find it so repulsive? Does it seem like the pharisees and their letter of the law?
Even if that is the case, I don’t think you can completely get away from some legalism in any organization.
If you want absolutely no legal foundation, you have chaos.
Maybe Order would be a better word?

 

[Matariel]

You are talking about nuances of churches that are seeing millions of ADULTS born from above and baptized each year worldwide. They are an ARMY out there battling Satan for the souls of men. They don’t do it perfectly, but they do it big time! If I were you I would worry more about what you are doing to fulfill the Great Commission.
God Bless

I would never want to be a part of a sect that would not teach the whole, complete, 100% truth. If they teach some error, how can I trust them? How do I know what teaching is right? How could they ever teach me about moral issues not covered in the Bible? It’s way to risky to go to splintered, divided (and you know St. Paul condemns division among Christians) man-made sects that are a sea of contradictions of doctrines and private interpretations.

It’s much safer to stick with the 2,000-year-old Church founded by Christ which He promised would not fail-- the Catholic Church, founded upon St. Peter and the Apostles. That’s why I am joining the Catholic Church this Easter.

 

[elvisman]

You are talking about nuances of churches that are seeing millions of ADULTS born from above and baptized each year worldwide. They are an ARMY out there battling Satan for the souls of men. They don’t do it perfectly, but they do it big time! If I were you I would worry more about what you are doing to fulfill the Great Commission.
God Bless

That’s why I’m here, friend.
Because Jesus said:
Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Matt 7:21

That’s why I accept the fullness of the gospel and not just a part of it like so many Protestants.

 

[mmplps7783]

**And there is not one **Protestant Church that is true to his heart and his word. If there was one, they would adhere to everything he taught - not just the buffet-style faith that is present in so many of them. “I’ll believe this, but the Real Presence? That’s weird!” Some of this - none of that.

No, my confused friend, o****nly the Catholic Church contains the fullness of the Gospel.

PS - Why do you identify yourself as Catholic Daddy?

I am very sorry for the tardiness of my reply but I was waiting to see if you would claim the ability to walk on water. Who are you to judge what is or is not close to Jesus’ heart? I follow the Bible AS I KNOW IT! just like you follow your Bible AS YOU KNOW IT. What amazes me is that you claim to follow the true relgion yet you forget "judge not lest you be judged!

 

[catholic_daddy]

What do you mean by "legalism of organized religion"?
Wold you prefer disorganized religion? (kidding)

When I hear that phrase, I think of people who want their cake and eat it, too. It’s called "Cafeteria Christianity". You take what you like and throw away the rest.

Whether you like it or not, Jesus set up a Church with Authority to bind and loose in earth and in heaven. He didn’t take that lightly and neither should we.

**Consider the Early Church Fathers - some of whom knew **the Apostles. At any rate, they were so very close to the time of Jesus - and they were transparently and unashamedly Catholic.

One of the earlies documented fathers, St. Ignatius of Antioch, on the way to his death, wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans. In it, he said:
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

‘Catholic’ just meant ‘universal’. The word has been hijacked. Of course they were ‘catholic’. Every saved person on and off the planet was (and still is today) part of the universal (‘catholic’) church! It is why the Apostles’ Creed says “I believe in the Holy (not ‘Roman’) Catholic Church”.

 

[Matariel]

‘Catholic’ just meant ‘universal’. The word has been hijacked. Of course they were ‘catholic’. Every saved person on and off the planet was (and still is today) part of the universal (‘catholic’) church! It is why the Apostles’ Creed says “I believe in the Holy (not ‘Roman’) Catholic Church”.

Hm… you do know that it was the Roman-based Catholic Church whose bishops wrote that Creed, and that it is the Roman-based Catholic Church they are referring to, right? Do you know who first used the term “Catholic Church”? Yes-- that’s right-- a “Roman” Catholic (gasp!) bishop and Catholic Church Father, St. Ignatius of Antioch!

The term has been hijacked by non-Catholics…

By the way, you never responded to my posts.

 

[Katrina5]

At the risk of confusing you even more, Oriental Christianity and Orthodox Christianity separated even earlier. From the outside, the Oriental/Orthodox split looks ridiculous, since the major issue revolves around what a specific phrase does, or does not mean, when translated into a third language. (They are talking about unification, but a millennia and a half about misunderstanding what a word means, has resulted in a number of other wounds, on both sides, that have to be healed.)

Anyway, both Oriental and Orthodox Christianity can claim to be the “true” Catholic Church ---- a point that is usually lost on Catholic Christianity.

jonathon

From my recent reading, I understood the Great Schizm to be a disagreement over “the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son”. At first-- then other things cropped up and they ended up wearing different hats and robes and bigger crosses…
Recent Popes have wanted to reconcile the differences with the East, the Anglican Church, and with The Disciples of Christ Church in America, since we are already so much alike.
Mormons, on the other hand, are so far away from Catholicism, that it isn’t likely. (They believe Christ and the Apostles came to the US in a big boat.)…at least not in my lifetime…God can do anything.
MY POINT being, a break-off can start out one way and morph into something quite different, as years go by.
I think that this happened with the Reformation. It started out as a good idea, but lost its way.
I also think there were some big egos, anger, and power problems.
Let’s not forget that there was a Counter-Reformation in the Catholic Church, and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, things got back on track as far as the Issues that Luther et. al. tried to correct.
And then Vatican II happened…(just kidding)

 

[mmplps7783]

Did you take DEBATE in College? The first rule, since the teams can be assigned to either side of an issue even if they disagree, is “Never question the motive of your opponent.”
If we want to debate and dialogue, and share here, we have to keep that in mind.
Some posters on here are unclear where they are coming from, like in which faith they were raised. I guess that helps keep it all in perspective.

This is the second time you have used the term “legalism” or “legalistic”. What do you mean by that, and why do you find it so repulsive? Does it seem like the pharisees and their letter of the law?
Even if that is the case, I don’t think you can completely get away from some legalism in any organization.
If you want absolutely no legal foundation, you have chaos.
Maybe Order would be a better word?

No I never took dabate anywhere but am very flattered that you think I would have been good at it. Once again you bring up a point about my choice of words. Legalism is good to a certain point. But I have gone to so many “Christian” churches looking for the real church. Instead I have found some that say bi-racial marriages are an abomination of God. That is actually contrary to the Bible. Others say no coffee,no pants for women…you get my drift. I have attended my current church for 5 yrs now. Of course he has said things that I don’t agree with or like but that is life and religion. Even when the disciples were alive there were arguments in the church. What I disagree with is being so caught up in the rules of the church and not focusing on Christ. In Matt 15:13 says it best. " But he answered and said "every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. LEAVE THEM ALONE. They are blind leaders of the blind,both will fall into a ditch.