A Historical Dare to Protestants

[allhers]

You can see the documentation in an adjacent post here. I am “Catholic Daddy” because my daddy was raised Roman Catholic.

Care to say which post that was? They are numbered, if it is a different thread, care to name it?
Thank you for telling me why you call yourself catholic daddy. At least that part is cleared up. But please, in the future, when you make a claim, such as that the Church said we couldn’t read the Bible for 900 years or something, provide your source, we all know that isn’t true but I would like to know why you believe it is.

 

[NDfan]

By “We Protestants” are you saying all Protestants or some Protestants. It is an historical fact that within Protestantism agreement on essentials and non-essentials cannot be found.

Where is the Holy Spirit within this tower of Babel?

Tomster sorry to barge in here but the same can be said for the RCC. Look through the history of the councils and show me one place where the rulings were 100% in favor of something they were addressing. You just won’t find it.

Point of fact Roman Catholic Theologians interpreted the Lord’s supper in a different way in the early 20th century and saw it as more symbolic. They wanted the church to stress the meaning of the Lord’s Supper rather than focus on the change of the elements. The Pope decided to maintain the doctrine of transubstantiation as defined by trent.

So not only do church leaders within the RCC not agree on essentials and non-essentials but the laity don’t as well. Stating outwardly that you are united in all beliefs doesn’t mean a hill of beans.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

You have your answer. You can’t see it there and you won’t recognize it anywhere else.

But I have news for you. The penence you perform is both unbiblical and powerless to provide atonement for your sin. And it comes from an unauthorized source.

Help me understand what you are saying here.

Are you saying?:

1. That penance is unbiblical; or,
2. That the penance Tomster does is unbiblical and powerless; or,
3. That only penance performed by Catholics is unbiblical and powerless; or, which I really hope isn’t the case,
4. You believe that penance is Biblical, and you are just able to see inside Tomster’s heart and know that what he is doing is false. But if this is the case at least you’ve narrowed your judgements and pronouncements down to 1 person, instead of most of 1,000,000,000 Catholics in the world.

To be clear about what you mean will determine my next response to you.

Because if you believe that penance is unbiblical…I’ve got some news for you.

God bless all!!!

 

[NDfan]

**Provide proof **for the ridiculously ignorant claim that the Church deemed it a sin to read Scripture.

This is an unsubstantiated lie that is unsupported by history.

I’m waiting . . .

Elvis I don’t recall the church defining it as a sin. However if you read through the transcripts of I believe the council of trent the church gave very specific criteria for who was allowed to read scripture and in what language they could read it. You will find that scripture was off limits to the laity. I have some good information on that I can pass along.

If you really study the dialogue it appears the church was trying to prevent exactly what we have today. Private interpretation leading to countless denominations. Not saying I agree or disagree with the council’s decisions but it is a fact that scripture was off limits to the laity. I can remember learning this while in Catholic school.

 

[elvisman]

Elvis I don’t recall the church defining it as a sin. However if you read through the transcripts of I believe the council of trent the church gave very specific criteria for who was allowed to read scripture and in what language they could read it. You will find that scripture was off limits to the laity. I have some good information on that I can pass along.

If you really study the dialogue it appears the church was trying to prevent exactly what we have today. Private interpretation leading to countless denominations. Not saying I agree or disagree with the council’s decisions but it is a fact that scripture was off limits to the laity. I can remember learning this while in Catholic school.

Hey ND!

I pointed this out to another (less charitable) poster on another thread.

**The penalties or anathemas related to self-interpretation were aimed at stopping further heresies from spreading because this had become widespread by the Protestant Rebels of the 16th Century. New forms of old heresies such as Manichaenism and Albigensian heresies were rearing their ugly heads because of flawed hermeneutics. Most people at the time were illiterate.

Those in the so-called educated class were the very ones spreading the heresies. This is who these anathemas are aimed at.

 

[NDfan]

Hey ND!

I pointed this out to another (less charitable) poster on another thread.

The penalties or anathemas related to self-interpretation were aimed at stopping further heresies from spreading because this had become widespread by the Protestant Rebels of the 16th Century. New forms of old heresies such as Manichaenism and Albigensian heresies were rearing their ugly heads because of flawed hermeneutics. *Most *people at the time were illiterate.

**Those in the so-called educated class were the very **ones spreading the heresies. This is who these anathemas are aimed at.

Elvis right on brotha

 

[rinnie]

It is more important to find God.
Does your church teach you to hear Gods voice?
Do not look for a church Look for God.

Where could you find God if not in the Church. God and his church are one. You cannot separate them.

 

[catholic_daddy]

Can you be more specific about exactly which verse or verses you believe gives us this assurance?

There are so many great ones and I have posted them here before, but let’s start with Jesus’ words:
“Truly truly I say to you, he who hears my words and believes him who sent Me has ETERNAL life, and WILL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION, but HAS PASSED from death unto life.”. That one itself should be enough, but it’s just the beginning.
How about this from Rom 8–
“There is therefor now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jeusu.”
How can you believe that verse and not know that you are saved and secure? If there remains zero condemnation for one of God’s saved children, how could they ever again be lost. Lastly, just look at the last part of Rom 8, from vs 28 to the end of the chapter. It is ridiculous to think that Paul is not celebrating the eternal security of the believer there.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

There are so many great ones and I have posted them here before, but let’s start with Jesus’ words:

“Truly truly I say to you, he who hears my words and believes him who sent Me has ETERNAL life, and WILL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION, but HAS PASSED from death unto life.”. That one itself should be enough, but it’s just the beginning.
How about this from Rom 8–
“There is therefor now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jeusu.”

 

[catholic_daddy]

I have been reading your posts on this thread for the past few days and must say that the more you say the bigger the hole you are digging for yourself.

Are you aware that it is a fundamental dogma of Christianity that Christ founded a Church for the sanctification of men? (emphasis on “a Church,” not many) That Christ might have perpetually available the salutary work of redemption, the Eternal Shepherd and Bishop of our souls determined to build the holy Church wherein, as in the house of the living God, all the faithful may dwell united by the bond of one faith and charity? That upon the foundations of Israel Jesus erected a new religious society to be the perfect flowering of Israel, as the true religion and as God’s final arrangement with wayfaring man?

Are you aware that what Jesus did to save us and the merits He won for us are, in theological terms, the objective redemption? Are you aware that the individual, however, does not automatically share in these benefits? Are you aware that it is not enough that the price of sin be paid for the race? Are you aware that in addition every man must be purified of the effects which sin has upon him and be made over supernaturally? Are you aware that a human being must be reborn to God through union with Christ, be healed of the wounds of sin and be made fit for the vision of God? Are you aware that this PROCESS is his sanctification, or, again in theological terms, the subjective redemption?

From what you have been saying on this thread, I do not think that you are fully aware of any of the above.

I have studied and taught that for years. Are you aware that Scripture emphatically proclaims “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved!”? All who believe are born into Christ’s universal Church. And that Paul teaches that while we grow the rest of our lives, the new birth is a moment in time, just like your physical birth? My church nurtures those new babes after they repent and believe.

 

[broski234]

There are so many great ones and I have posted them here before, but let’s start with Jesus’ words:
“Truly truly I say to you, he who hears my words and believes him who sent Me has ETERNAL life, and WILL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION, but HAS PASSED from death unto life.”. That one itself should be enough, but it’s just the beginning.
How about this from Rom 8–
“There is therefor now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jeusu.”
How can you believe that verse and not know that you are saved and secure? If there remains zero condemnation for one of God’s saved children, how could they ever again be lost. Lastly, just look at the last part of Rom 8, from vs 28 to the end of the chapter. It is ridiculous to think that Paul is not celebrating the eternal security of the believer there.

Amen! I believe Romans 8:1 100%. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. But nowhere in that passage does it say that I can’t at some point in the future reject Christ Jesus or fall away from Christ Jesus. It doesn’t say that I have lost my free will or at anytime go back and choose to live in sin. In Romans 6:15-16 says “What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience which leads to righteousness.” They are now under the law of grace. Does it say that since they are under grace, there is no sin. NO! If you yield to sin, you will be a slave to sin. There is no condemnation for those are in Christ Jesus as long as they stay there. But that’s the problem. Staying in Christ Jesus. IF we sin, we are no longer in Christ Jesus.

 

[broski234]

There are so many great ones and I have posted them here before, but let’s start with Jesus’ words:
“Truly truly I say to you, he who hears my words and believes him who sent Me has ETERNAL life, and WILL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION, but HAS PASSED from death unto life.”. That one itself should be enough, but it’s just the beginning.
How about this from Rom 8–
“There is therefor now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jeusu.”
How can you believe that verse and not know that you are saved and secure? If there remains zero condemnation for one of God’s saved children, how could they ever again be lost. Lastly, just look at the last part of Rom 8, from vs 28 to the end of the chapter. It is ridiculous to think that Paul is not celebrating the eternal security of the believer there.

There are so many passages that refute this OSAS notion that you hold. You can most definitely lose your salvation. I don’t have time to list because I have to get back to work. However, if you would like me to list those verses, I will gladly do so

 

[elvisman]

There are so many passages that refute this OSAS notion that you hold. You can most definitely lose your salvation. I don’t have time to list because I have to get back to work. However, if you would like me to list those verses, I will gladly do so

broski -
Here are some passages that I have in my archives. Apparently, catholic daddy has never read them

These ALL illustrate that you can, indeed lose your salvation. This is why St. Paul tells us that we should "work out our salvation with fear and trembling."

Matt. 24:13
**“He who endures to the end will be saved” **

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

2 Peter 2:26-27
**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
**For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. **

Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’."

1 Cor. 9:27
**“I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” **

 

[catholic_daddy]

Help me understand what you are saying here.

Are you saying?:

1. That penance is unbiblical; or,
2. That the penance Tomster does is unbiblical and powerless; or,
3. That only penance performed by Catholics is unbiblical and powerless; or, which I really hope isn’t the case,
4. You believe that penance is Biblical, and you are just able to see inside Tomster’s heart and know that what he is doing is false. But if this is the case at least you’ve narrowed your judgements and pronouncements down to 1 person, instead of most of 1,000,000,000 Catholics in the world.

To be clear about what you mean will determine my next response to you.

Because if you believe that penance is unbiblical…I’ve got some news for you.

God bless all!!!

Clever. You have way too much time on your hands. I only read a third of your post, but enough to give you the answer you crave. I talked to a friend of min two days ago who was a Catholic for years. He described how at confession the priest would perscribe three Hail Mary’s for this and four for that. Then he’d rattle them off. That’s actually beside the point. It was free color for you.
BUT…Penance is perscribed and absolution comes once the penance is done. That system undermines not only Scripture, which says “If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALl unrighteosness.” (PERIOD!)…but it also undermines the doctrine of the atonement, because I guarantee you the average Roman Catholic feels HE is atoning for his own sin.

 

[catholic_daddy]

broski -
Here are some passages that I have in my archives. Apparently, catholic daddy has never read them

These ALL illustrate that you can, indeed lose your salvation. This is why St. Paul tells us that we should “work out our salvation with fear and trembling.”

Matt. 24:13
"He who endures to the end will be saved"

Romans 11:22
**“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided **you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

2 Peter 2:26-27
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’."

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified"

I have addressed virtually all those vss already. But you don’t care. I feel sorry for you. You’re in for a rough road! Just don’t let us catch you singing that g hymn, “Blessed Assurance”. You have none! Get your scissors out and remove those vss from your Bible. They are not for you!

 

[Matariel]

Clever. You have way too much time on your hands. I only read a third of your post, but enough to give you the answer you crave. I talked to a friend of min two days ago who was a Catholic for years. He described how at confession the priest would … doctrine of the atonement, because I guarantee you the average Roman Catholic feels HE is atoning for his own sin.

Have you even tried to understand things from a Catholic weltanschauung before attacking it? Or do you like to think you know what the Catholic viewpoint is?

And also, what authority do you appeal to?

 

[catholic_daddy]

Amen! I believe Romans 8:1 100%. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. But nowhere in that passage does it say that I can’t at some point in the future reject Christ Jesus or fall away from Christ Jesus. It doesn’t say that I have lost my free will or at anytime go back and choose to live in sin. In Romans 6:15-16 says “What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience which leads to righteousness.” They are now under the law of grace. Does it say that since they are under grace, there is no sin. NO! If you yield to sin, you will be a slave to sin. There is no condemnation for those are in Christ Jesus as long as they stay there. But that’s the problem. Staying in Christ Jesus. IF we sin, we are no longer in Christ Jesus.

With all due respect, you have no concept of what it means to be “in Christ”. None. And you have no inderstanding of what God does to someone when He saves them and brings them literally into His family. Do you know why?

 

[Matariel]

With all due respect, you have no concept of what it means to be “in Christ”. None. And you have no inderstanding of what God does to someone when He saves them and brings them literally into His family. Do you know why?

Wow that’s awefully judgemental.

Protestantism is just a collection of splintering, divided squabbling sects, and no one can definitively know anything, and are taught to trust their own interpretation of what the Scriptures mean. This has lead to all kinds of heresies.

I was raised Nazarene, then Wesleyan, then independent Protestant, and there was no means of certainty on what was the correct interpretation of the Bible. Fortunately, I’m converting to the holy 2,000-year-old Catholic Church and God promised to always sustain it. So I need no longer rely on the conflicting opinions of men and divided man-made sects.

 

[catholic_daddy]

catholic daddy;4799503:

There are so many great ones and I have posted them here before, but let’s start with Jesus’ words:

In Christ Jesus. What if you are in Jesus, but then leave?

John 15
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me,

he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Now remain in my love. **10If you obey **my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Paul makes it clear that he is confident, but that without endurance he might not finish the race.

Phil 3

10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I** do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it.** But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us”.

I have addressed virtually all those vss already. But you don’t care. I feel sorry for you. You’re in for a rough road! Just don’t let us catch you singing that g hymn, “Blessed Assurance”. You have none! Get your scissors out and remove those vss from your Bible. They are not for you!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;4799565:

I have addressed virtually all those vss already. But you don’t care. I feel sorry for you. You’re in for a rough road! Just don’t let us catch you singing that g hymn, “Blessed Assurance”. You have none! Get your scissors out and remove those vss from your Bible. They are not for you!

The TRUTH will set you free.

Denial will bind you.