A Historical Dare to Protestants

[catholic_daddy]

Hi CD,

Thank you for what you said above! Now I understand why you say what you say…you assume things other than what you read or hear.

And here is a perfect example of you coming to a conclusion different from what was said by me.

I said **"I also know that if I do not watch and pray, that I will find myself in the situation **described so accurately in 2 Peter 2:22.

Watching and praying daily for God’s grace to guide and lead and protect, is part of the Christian life!! By being in prayer and communion with God daily, and making choices for God, we are protected from that situation described in 2 Peter 2:22…and that is not only Blessed Assurance, that is Blessed Living!!!

I never once said that I had FEAR of falling into that situation…but you weren’t listening to what I said, you were hearing what I did not say, or reading what I did not write. You should be aware of that tendency you have when reading the Holy Scriptures.

And while I do not fear falling into that situation because of the Blessed Assurance I have from watching and praying…the possibility is always there for a person, for me and you, to let down their guard and fall into that situation. There are more than a few examples of that in the Bible.

And yet God’s love and mercy is so great, so much greater than our pea brains can comprehend, that if a person falls into that situation, God will lovingly take them back and give them a new beginning again!!! He is the God of New Beginnings!!! And there are many examples of that in the Bible!!!

And because of that I love to sing that beautiful hymn “Blessed Assurance” in thanksgiving and praise to Our Loving God and Father!!!

God bless all!!!

Do you really think you’re that strong? You have no guarantee that you are, my friend, and therefor no blessed Assurance. How good do you think you have to be? I’m trying to help. Sometimes I think Roman Catholics just settle for…"Oh well, I’ll just spend a few thousand years in purgatory and then go to heaven. How sad and misguided if that is the case. Do you know for sure you’re born again?

 

[Ross09]

Do you really think you’re that strong? You have no guarantee that you are, my friend, and therefor no blessed Assurance. How good do you think you have to be? I’m trying to help. Sometimes I think Roman Catholics just settle for…"Oh well, I’ll just spend a few thousand years in purgatory and then go to heaven. How sad and misguided if that is the case. Do you know for sure you’re born again?

All Catholics are born again through baptism!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

All Catholics are born again through baptism!

And we are continually reborn through the sacraments as we abide in Jesus’ love by obeying his commandments.

 

[jblake]

elvisman;:

ridiculously ignorant claim that the Church deemed it a sin to read Scripture… This is an unsubstantiated lie that is unsupported by history.

One has to read that Creed in question, in its original language, to understand how much of its meaning has literally been lost in translation.

The English translation of that Creed does support that interpretation. To call the claim an unsubstantiated lie, is to admit that one knows not the Creeds of Christendom.

The other datapoint is that both Orthodox Christianity, and Catholic Christianity have gone through periods of time when it was acceptable for laity to either read, or study the Bible, and when it was unacceptable for the laity to either read, or study the Bible. During periods of the latter, it becomes very easy for non-clergy to conclude that it is a sin for the laity to read the Bible.

jonathon

 

[catholic_daddy]

Wow that’s awefully judgemental.

Protestantism is just a collection of splintering, divided squabbling sects, and no one can definitively know anything, and are taught to trust their own interpretation of what the Scriptures mean. This has lead to all kinds of heresies.

I was raised Nazarene, then Wesleyan, then independent Protestant, and there was no means of certainty on what was the correct interpretation of the Bible. Fortunately, I’m converting to the holy 2,000-year-old Catholic Church and God promised to always sustain it. So I need no longer rely on the conflicting opinions of men and divided man-made sects.

I am so incredibly happy with my salvation and the Evangelical body of Christ, it is beyond words. But I was having a conversation at the dinner table tonight and we were talking about this: Jesus said FEW would find the way that leads to life. And I said this–in evry church, whether RCC, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Anglican…there are the “many” who think they have to be good enough to get to heaven, and hope they will find out that one day God will let them into heaven…(Emphasis on “hope so”)…and then there are the “few”. who know they don’t deserve it but have been born again through faith in the FINISHED work of the cross. That’s what it’s all about.

 

[jblake]

catholic daddy;:

With all due respect, you have no concept of what it means to be “in Christ”. None.

One of the first debates within Christianity was what it means to be “In Christ”. Most of the material we have, presents only the viewpoint of the side that won. The material from the viewpoint of those who were on the losing sides, present teachings that are radically different from contemporary Christianity.

The debate on what it means to be “in Christ” continues unabated to this day. The difference is that the different sides today are usually citing the same sources.

And you have no understanding of what God does to

A different understanding need not equate to no understanding.

jonathon

 

[Bramble]

Wow that’s awefully judgemental.

Protestantism is just a collection of splintering, divided squabbling sects, and no one can definitively know anything, and are taught to trust their own interpretation of what the Scriptures mean. This has lead to all kinds of heresies.

And that isn’t judgmental?

Matariel:

I was raised Nazarene, then Wesleyan, then independent Protestant, and there was no means of certainty on what was the correct interpretation of the Bible. Fortunately, I’m converting to the holy 2,000-year-old Catholic Church and God promised to always sustain it. So I need no longer rely on the conflicting opinions of men and divided man-made sects.

Pal, it’s still your personal opinion, and your private interpretation that the RC is the truth.

You can’t get away from your private interpretation. If it was untrustworthy in the past, why is it suddenly trustworthy in the present?

 

[Protestant101]

broski -
Here are some passages that I have in my archives. Apparently, catholic daddy has never read them

These ALL illustrate that you can, indeed lose your salvation. This is why St. Paul tells us that we should “work out our salvation with fear and trembling.”

Matt. 24:13
"He who endures to the end will be saved"

Romans 11:22
**“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided **you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

2 Peter 2:26-27
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’."

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified"

It would also follow that in the above texts; there are no proofs that support the idea that in each case, someone who actually “had salvation” was in fact “saved.” People often make that claim, that they are saved/were saved; but is it always true? Therefore, what did individuals referred to in the above texts actually lose? In some cases, nothing.

 

[catholic_daddy]

All Catholics are born again through baptism!

That is completely untrue. Baptism does not in itself confer anything. If it accompanies a genuine faith that clings to Christ ALONE for salvation, based on the finished work of the cross, abandoning any hope of meriting salvation, then the New Birth occurs. How many times do you honestly think that is what happens when Joe Roman Catholic gets baptized?

 

[ncgolf]

That is completely untrue. Baptism does not in itself confer anything. If it accompanies a genuine faith that clings to Christ ALONE for salvation, based on the finished work of the cross, abandoning any hope of meriting salvation, then the New Birth occurs. How many times do you honestly think that is what happens when Joe Roman Catholic gets baptized?

I will say it again for I think you are hard of reading, We are born again in Baptism.

 

[catholic_daddy]

It would also follow that in the above texts; there are no proofs that support the idea that in each case, someone who actually “had salvation” was in fact “saved.” People often make that claim, that they are saved/were saved; but is it always true? Therefore, what did individuals referred to in the above texts actually lose? In some cases, nothing.

I agree in that those passages sited do not necessarily describe people who were regenerated. But I don’t think it is accurate to use the words “saved” or “salvation” to describe anyone who is not regenerated.

 

[elvisman]

I have addressed virtually all those vss already. But you don’t care. I feel sorry for you. You’re in for a rough road! Just don’t let us catch you singing that g hymn, “Blessed Assurance”. You have none! Get your scissors out and remove those vss from your Bible. They are not for you!

It would also follow that in the above texts; there are no proofs that support the idea that in each case, someone who actually “had salvation” was in fact “saved.” People often make that claim, that they are saved/were saved; but is it always true? Therefore, what did individuals referred to in the above texts actually lose? In some cases, nothing.

**Nobody - let me repeat - Nobody is saved until they leave this world. **Salvation is a process. Protestants confuse Redemption with Salvation.

We are redeemed because redemption gives us the opportunity and the hope of going to heaven. This is what gives us moral assurance of heaven - but we still need to “endure to the end”, as Jesus said.
Salvation on the other hand, isn’t finished until we die. It is a lifelong process - as these passages illustrate so clearly.

To say that you are saved without a doubt goes against Scripture. St. Paul was not as certain as the Protestants I hear today. There IS no such thing as OSAS - it doesn’t wash with Scripture.

 

[elvisman]

I agree in that those passages sited do not necessarily describe people who were regenerated. But I don’t think it is accurate to use the words “saved” or “salvation” to describe anyone who is not regenerated.

It’s not even accurate to describe them as “saved” until they die and have been judged.

 

[Ross09]

That is completely untrue. Baptism does not in itself confer anything. If it accompanies a genuine faith that clings to Christ ALONE for salvation, based on the finished work of the cross, abandoning any hope of meriting salvation, then the New Birth occurs. How many times do you honestly think that is what happens when Joe Roman Catholic gets baptized?

You are a judge of each Catholic’s personal faith? Baptism confers plenty. It is a physical and spiritual sign of joining into the Christian community. If it confers nothing, why must every Christian do it? Why does Jesus tell us we must be born of the water and the spirit if Baptism confers nothing?

For more reading on how Catholics are born again through Baptism, visit catholic.com/library/are_catholics_born_again.asp

 

[catholic_daddy]

One of the first debates within Christianity was what it means to be “In Christ”. Most of the material we have, presents only the viewpoint of the side that won. The material from the viewpoint of those who were on the losing sides, present teachings that are radically different from contemporary Christianity.

The debate on what it means to be “in Christ” continues unabated to this day. The difference is that the different sides today are usually citing the same sources.

A different understanding need not equate to no understanding.

jonathon

One of the best works I’ve ever read on it is D. Martyn-Lloyd Jones’ six volume commentary on Romans 5-8. Also, Needham’s book, Birthright. The awesome thing is to simply study and meditate on the relevant passages from Paul and John

 

[Bramble]

Nobody - let me repeat - Nobody is saved until they leave this world. Salvation is a process. Protestants confuse Redemption with Salvation.

We are redeemed because redemption gives us the opportunity and the hope of going to heaven. This is what gives us moral assurance of heaven - but we still need to “endure to the end”, as Jesus said.
Salvation on the other hand, isn’t finished until we die. It is a lifelong process - as these passages illustrate so clearly.

**To say that you are saved without a doubt goes against **Scripture. St. Paul was not as certain as the Protestants I hear today. There IS no such thing as OSAS - it doesn’t wash with Scripture.

Elvisman has spoken (that ol’ hound dog), and the case is closed.

 

[catholic_daddy]

You are a judge of each Catholic’s personal faith? Baptism confers plenty. It is a physical and spiritual sign of joining into the Christian community. If it confers nothing, why must every Christian do it? Why does Jesus tell us we must be born of the water and the spirit if Baptism confers nothing?

For more reading on how Catholics are born again through Baptism, visit catholic.com/library/are_catholics_born_again.asp

I don’t think you get it at all. Please reread what I wrote.

 

[Ross09]

I don’t think you get it at all. Please reread what I wrote.

What don’t I “get”? That you believe Catholics aren’t born again through baptism? Please enlighten us

 

[catholic_daddy]

**It’s not **even accurate to describe them as “saved” until they die and have been judged.

You make it easy, Elvis. Tell Paul and Peter all these past perfect and past tenses support what you are saying. OR…you could feast on them and enter into what they offer you!

II Cor 1
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Eph 1- (All past tense—DONE!)
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 2—(notice past tense—DONE)
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Titus 3:5-- He saved us, (past tense) not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration (done) and renewing (done) by the Holy Spirit,
*
I Peter 1—
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade— kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
*
22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

 

[benedictus2]

There were and are many population groups who by Bible definition can be counted as “God’s children.” Many of them have nothing to do with “Rome has spoken.” This is enough history for me.

Everyone is a child of God.

But that is not the question here. The question is whether the denomination one belongs to is the Church that Christ founded upon Peter.

Not belonging to the Catholic Church does not make one any less a child of God. But one is able to avail of so many avenues of grace in the His Church.

The fact remains that Christ established one Church and He wants us all to be in that Church. If Church does not matter he would not have established one. If several churches is what is required, he would have founded one one each of the apostles or each of his discipels. But he did not. He singled out Peter and built His church upon him.

He says that there will be one flock, one shepherd. It has not happened yet, but it will happen because that is God’s will. And it will happen in God’s time.