A month After Emergency Declaration, Trump's Promises Largely Unfulfilled

[Ridgerunner]

If Trump somehow cured cancer, I would give him props for it and be very happy for the deaths that would be prevented.

However, that has nothing to do with what I posted.

You said what you said. I think if people look at Post 99, the conclusion is inescapable.

Conversely, if Trump attempts to adjourn Congress, something no other President has done, will you call him on it?

I’m not a constitutional scholar. If he has the power to do it, then I wouldn’t. If he doesn’t, then I would.

 

[Jeanne_S]

I really believed t he news sources that those opposed to Trump avail themselves to is the biggest problem re access to the actual facts

 

[LeafByNiggle]

So you agree with her that seeds and garden supplies are not an essential commodity?

It is false news that Michigan has banned the sale of seeds and garden supplies. They are still available on-line. Only in-store sales in stores of more than 50,000 square feet are banned, because those areas of he store must be closed off to limit the number of people in the store.

 

[HarryStotle]

They are still available on-line. Only in-store sales in stores of more than 50,000 square feet are banned, because those areas of he store must be closed off to limit the number of people in the store.

Why would areas of the store need to be “closed off” to limit the numbers of people? Wouldn’t spacing be better served by opening up areas of the store that are available and restricting numbers accordingly?

Why is she targeting garden centers at large retail stores when many of these incorporate outside areas? Especially at a time when gardeners are requiring supplies for their scheduled planting?

It appears, according to the Detroit News, that it is ALL garden centers that are affected, not just those in large retail stores.

The new order requires stores to cordon off nonessential sales areas, such as gardening supplies, maintains a prohibition on golf, and shutters landscape and nursery businesses.

Why are liquor stores considered “essential” but gardening supplies are not? It appears there is a degree of ideological presupposition coming into play here.

 

[Maximus1]

I agree that it is a reasonable observation. Thing is it doesn’t have to be 100% to by essentially true.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

They are still available on-line. Only in-store sales in stores of more than 50,000 square feet are banned, because those areas of he store must be closed off to limit the number of people in the store.

Why would areas of the store need to be “closed off” to limit the numbers of people?

Because if people come into the store to buy seeds and garden supplies that’s more people than if they stayed home and ordered their seeds and supplies on-line.

Why is she targeting garden centers at large retail stores when many of these incorporate outside areas?

Are you sure outdoor sales areas are banned?

It appears, according to the Detroit News, that it is ALL garden centers that are affected, not just those in large retail stores.

The new order requires stores to cordon off nonessential sales areas, such as gardening supplies, maintains a prohibition on golf, and shutters landscape and nursery businesses.

I would not assume that this incidental reference (which was not the main subject of the article) is going to get the exact legal wording of the regulation. What does the actual text of the regulation say?

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

Trump couldn’t have imposed wide-ranging and uniform measures even if he wanted to.

The borders are controlled by the Federal government. And Trump has been absolute on that. Have you really missed that?

I wasn’t speaking of the borders.

What do you suppose “wide-ranging and uniform measures” mean other than “borders?” I was speaking of all those measures which are in the control of each state, thus: “… couldn’t have imposed wide-ranging and uniform measures even if he wanted to.”

The governing authorities in Hong Kong and Taiwan have the kind of “wide-ranging” authority to determine all the measures that are not part of the federal system in the US.

The point is that those jurisdictions had unilateral authority to impose all measures, whereas in the US, the “wide-ranging” measures fall under various jurisdictions.

 

[Maximus1]

Conservatives forgot the 10th Amendment exists in 2020?

 

[Jeanne_S]

More to the point the Dems suddenly recall it exists.This after denying the Constitution for years…you know it’s irrelevent,not a living document all that nonesense

 

[sallybutler]

Sorry Leaf, don’t you know that as soon as a publication allows a criticism of Trump to show up in their media, they are no longer qualified as having a good reputation.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

That doesn’t exist. Trump is running this crisis like he’s run his businesses and how he’s run his presidency - pitting people against each other, having no long term strategy, always looking to make himself the center of attention.

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[Maximus1]

Christy was punished by his own party for that handshake.

 

[HarryStotle]

I would not assume that this incidental reference (which was not the main subject of the article) is going to get the exact legal wording of the regulation. What does the actual text of the regulation say?

So your assumption is that The Detroit News got it wrong?

Here is the specific “text of the regulation:”

https://www.michigan.gov/whitmer/0,9309,7-387-90499_90705-525182--,00.html

The businesses which may continue “in-person” operations are those that correspond to “critical infrastructure” operations according to…

Any suppliers, distribution centers, or service providers whose continued operation is necessary to enable, support, or facilitate another business’s or operation’s critical infrastructure work may designate their workers as critical infrastructure workers, provided that only those workers whose in-person presence is necessary to enable, support, or facilitate such work may be so designated.

Clearly, if stores are required by law to close these “non-essential” areas, then these non-essential areas cannot fit the above designation of “critical infrastructure.” Therefore, they must be closed by law — since stores that are nursery and garden centres (no matter the size) are NOT critical infrastructure.

1. Close areas of the store—by cordoning them off, placing signs in aisles, posting prominent signs, removing goods from shelves, or other appropriate means—that are dedicated to the following classes of goods:

• Carpet or flooring.
• Furniture.
• Garden centers and plant nurseries.
• Paint.

That stands to reason, no?

 

[HarryStotle]

Sorry Leaf, don’t you know that as soon as a publication allows a criticism of Trump to show up in their media, they are no longer qualified as having a good reputation.

Actually, my own warrant for a “less than reliable reputation” of a publication would be if they engage in more than 65% criticism or mindless fawning regarding any unresolved political issue. Between 50 and 65% of either would indicate “reasonable reliability.”

I tend not to use the term “good reputation,” since that assumes the basis for assessment is generalized opinion and not reliability.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Closing off areas of the store that you quoted only applies to stores of more than 50,000 square feet.

 

[HarryStotle]

Closing off areas of the store that you quoted only applies to stores of more than 50,000 square feet.

You are missing the point. Only those businesses that engage in “critical infrastructure” types of commerce are permitted to stay open AT ALL. Therefore, if garden center and nursery areas of stores over 50,000 sq ft are designated “non-essential” then any store (of any size) that is specifically a garden centre or nursery is by default “non-essential.”

In this case logic is an essential requirement to comprehend the point.

Let this sink in…

1. For purposes of this order, critical infrastructure workers also include:
   …

1. Any suppliers, distribution centers, or service providers whose continued operation is necessary to enable, support, or facilitate another business’s or operation’s critical infrastructure work may designate their workers as critical infrastructure workers, provided that only those workers whose in-person presence is necessary to enable, support, or facilitate such work may be so designated.

1. Any suppliers, distribution centers, or service providers whose continued operation is necessary to enable, support, or facilitate the necessary work of suppliers, distribution centers, or service providers described in subprovision (1) of this subsection may designate their workers as critical infrastructure workers, provided that only those workers whose in-person presence is necessary to enable, support, or facilitate such work may be so designated.
2. Consistent with the scope of work permitted under subprovision (2) of this subsection, any suppliers, distribution centers, or service providers further down the supply chain whose continued operation is necessary to enable, support, or facilitate the necessary work of other suppliers, distribution centers, or service providers may likewise designate their workers as critical infrastructure workers, provided that only those workers whose in-person presence is necessary to enable, support, or facilitate such work may be so designated.

4. Suppliers, distribution centers, and service providers that abuse their designation authority under this subsection shall be subject to sanctions to the fullest extent of the law.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

The word “Garden” appears exactly once in the text, and that is in relation to large retail stores closing off their garden section. But you are right that small specifically garden centers that do not provide any critical infrastructure may not operate as they have with in-person shopping. But they can still take orders over the phone and provide either delivery or curbside pickup, it seems to me. And this order only is in effect for another 12 days. I bet this debate will last longer than the order the debate is about.

 

[HarryStotle]

The word “Garden” appears exactly once in the text, and that is in relation to large retail stores closing off their garden section. But you are right that small specifically garden centers that do not provide any critical infrastructure may not operate as they have with in-person shopping. But they can still take orders over the phone and provide either delivery or curbside pickup, it seems to me. And this order only is in effect for another 12 days. I bet this debate will last longer than the order the debate is about.

That [bolded statement] is likely not true because suppliers have to designate their workers as “critical infrastructure workers” in order for those workers “whose in-person presence is necessary to enable, support, or facilitate such work may be so designated.”

Employees at businesses cannot even be at work in any capacity (not to take orders over the phone or provide curbside pickup) unless the business is designated as “critical infrastructure.”

Certainly other US states and provinces in Canada have taken a less stringent approach, but the over-the-top restrictions in Michigan are why Whitmer is being protested as overly authoritarian.