A question about the covid vaccines

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Capta(name removed by moderator)rudeman said:
mRNA vaccines have been under study since the Ebola crisis. We know that they’re safe long-term and there’s theoretically no long-term consequences that could happen.
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How when these are the first mRNA vaccines?
ValleyCatholic said:
This is aside from the serious moral questions of taking a vaccine that builds on knowledge from studies built on the backs of aborted children.
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Some current medical knowledge is based on unethical experiments done on Jews during World War 2, if aborted baby cells aren’t used in the development (by which I mean manufacture, testing, and research specifically for developing this vaccine) - I don’t think that’s an issue.
ValleyCatholic said:
Two of the three largest vaccines were not tested or created using aborted embryonic material, however, their foundations are based on such.
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Which ones? If there is an ethical candidate coming up I would love to know about it.
 
I would suggest those struggling with the concept of the covid vaccine educate themselves by reading medical journal articles. Reputable ones. They are available on-line, often, and really aren’t that difficult to understand, even if you don’t have a background in science or medicine.
 
Elf01 said:
Some current medical knowledge is based on unethical experiments done on Jews during World War 2,
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I’m glad you mentioned this. I understand the laser focus Catholics have regarding abortion but the ethics behind vaccine development isn’t the only area where innocent lives furthered our understanding in medicine. Deep sea fisherman wear outfits designed to allow them a longer survival rate if they go into the frigid cold waters of the North Sea. Designed and developed from data collected from Nazi experiments on Jews and Roma in the concentration camps where they froze people to develop thermal curves still used today. There were countless other experiments, one where they amputated limbs to test various clotting drugs and discovered sulfonamides as an antibacterial agent…still used today. There are many more…

What about information obtained from a terrorist by torture to discover where the bombs are? Are we to ignore the information due to the method of extraction?

It’s hard to define lines to cross. The legal abortion of two babies and the permission of their mothers for allowing the research for the kidney cells that constitute the “aborted cells” used in research ever since and which are clones of clones of clones of those original cells…which can never become a baby again, not even a kidney…can’t be undone. But, to ignore any good that has come from this travesty is also a bit hypocritical if you ignore the other medical miracles that came from Nazi experiments. I just can’t consider using a sulfonamide as participating in Jewish genocide nor do I consider using a vaccine that may have been in the same room as fetal cells during its development as outright declaring I agree with abortion. If nothing else, I consider it as an evil that happened but that we have done much good with in spite of its original means of procurement. Perhaps it’s a way to honor their sacrifice. Most Jews feel that way about medical advancements from Nazi torture chambers.
 
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If your conscience allows one to ignore the role of abortion that had gone into these vaccines, then that’s your business.
 
ValleyCatholic said:
. Further, have you seen the studies on the long term effects of the vaccine? Nope, because there aren’t any. What we do know is that 6 people have died in the vaccine trials. We also know that one must follow their conscience. If many here felt their conscience allowed them to vote for pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, and anti-nuclear family Biden, then they should not judge those of use who see the vaccine as a moral wrong.
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Have you seen the studies on the long term effects of Covid? There aren’t any. People are making “warp speed” conclusions about supposed safety figures of 99 percent.

That famous 99 percent safe figure includes as “safe” people who went through agonizing treatment in hospitals and afterwards. It also includes family members who went through Hell, isolated from loved ones, living in fear they or their children contracted it too.

The nurses who worked far more overtime than they wanted under incredibly bad conditions will be interested you consider them safe too. They likely would be willing to do this for several more years.

As a prolifer, pro family, activist, I’m asking you please don’t identify Vaccine with pro choice.
 
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You are free to to hold your opinion, but identifying the science behind the vaccine and its very real foundation in aborted fetus material is VERY MUCH tied to the pro choice issue. If you feel that way, so be it. However, denying its correlation is neither ethical nor in keeping with Reason, which is one of the major foundations of the Church.

Moreover, you wrote “It also includes family members who went through Hell, isolated from loved ones, living in fear they or their children contracted it too.” which is an appeal to emotion. This holds little bearing on this discussion. It relies on the premise that their actions were both reasonable and justified. This has not been proven to be the case. Isolating oneself from ones family, Church, and other important things in life based on very spotty science is neither heroic or intelligent. It is sheepish, and places one’s fear of death over the supremacy of God, His plans, and His will. Take precautions such as masks, washing hands, etc, . . . Close Churches?..sure! Close bars, strip clubs, political rallies?..Never! The amount of stupidity behind many such restrictions leave it impossible to believe that there are anything other than ulterior motives behind the actions of the “elite”.
 
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I don’t like to reject a message only because of the messenger. But when a message depends on interpretation of data, I need to look at the messenger s track record.

The priest in the video you cited seems to have had controversy as his chief ministry, even before Covid, constant disagreement with bishops.

One fellow prolifer forward to me a video from a physician, “proving” the vaccine was not just ineffective, but inherently evil. So I looked up what she was doing before Covid, and found she is heavily into New Age practices, with beliefs bordering on the bizarre; controversy for the sake of controversy, like Fr Nix.

This is what I find troubling about the anti Covid vaccine side.
 
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People should use their own brains and not be blindly obedient to anyone -Government or otherwise.
It is individuals responsibilities to make informed decisions about what to/what not to put in their bodies.

Various Covid vaccines may be effective, but the public shouldn’t be blind to that all of this push for urgent vaccinations is at least partly driven by desire to calm public fears, stabilise stock markets, & improve economies.

The reality is that with such an urgent roll out, any potential long-term side effects will not be known. The benefits may outweigh the negatives, but it is still important to keep this in mind.

I have friend of friends scientists who believe it is all driven by the above factors, and that truly effective covid vaccines will not available for years as the virus mutates to different strains. So “for show” so to speak.

This is their opinion but not being a scientist I cannot confirm or not:)

I do know though that the more devastating effects of Covid are not actually caused by the virus itself but are caused the bodies response to it of hyper inflammation leading to sepsis, blood clotting… cumulating in multiple organ failure, stroke, respiratory failure.

There needs to be urgent focused placed not only on creation of vaccines, but also on treatments that keep inflammation in check, blood thinning to lower d dimer levels, etc.

I know many many people who have received flu vaccinations and have still subsequently received flu’s later. I can"t imagine why it would be any different with covid vaccines.

Putting all hopes solely on a vaccine/all one basket could cause tragic future problems.


 
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The priest in question is one of a growing number of clergy and laymen who desire a return to a more conservative Church that takes a more active role in seeking to spread the Christian message of old, as opposed to the more liberal and “Cafeteria Catholic” message being advanced by the USCCB and some clergy in the Vatican. You post is revealing in that you automatically equate a questioning of some Bishops as problematic. Remember that the Church is infallible, eternal, and in favor with God. That does not mean that the men who run it are infallible. One only has to look at those Bishops who hid the abuse scandal and took sides with the abusers against the abused. One’s fealty to the Church should be unquestionable, but that should not extend itself to the men in it.
 
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ValleyCatholic said:
You post is revealing in that you automatically equate a questioning of some Bishops as problematic.
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I grew up watching “Father Knows Best” in the 1950s, when authority was rarely questioned: the parents, the teacher, the police, the bishop.

This is not the world we live in today. Today the father is either a fool or abusive. The students are shown as wiser than teachers. The police officer, well…as you know. And how are bishops depicted in the media?

Yes, it did take courage to point out all of those authority figures are imperfect, sometimes very much so, if you were saying it in the 1950s. People didn’t want to hear it then.

But a genuine prophet is not the person who rejects the dominant error of the previous generation, he is she rejects the dominant error of right now.
 
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What does this have to do with anything I wrote? This is an anecdote not an argument. 😐 Questioning authority, when just and reasonable, is a good and necessary thing.
 
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ValleyCatholic said:
Questioning authority, when just and reasonable, is a good and necessary thing.
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True.

But it helps to look around, which way is the crowd moving at this moment. The crowd is not always wrong, but it often is, and we all have a natural tendency to follow it even when it is wrong.

In the 1950s the crowd was moving one way (defend authority at all costs). The natural tendency to follow that crowd was sometimes not good.

That’s not the crowd that’s likely to lead us astray in this decade.
 
Support your contention, please. That’s a large claim, that " That’s not the crowd that’s likely to lead us astray in this decade." Otherwise, it is merely an opinion.
 
It sounds from the article, like this may a matter of he said/she said. In any event, my argument does not rest on the character of one priest. If my argument is unsound, please feel free to address it at each point.
 
ValleyCatholic said:
Support your contention, please. That’s a large claim, that " That’s not the crowd that’s likely to lead us astray in this decade." Otherwise, it is merely an opinion.
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Well, you might watch some TV shows. How do they depict religious authorities, such as the father in the family? (This week only, you may see some old movies on turning up, where the father, or the priest is wise, respected by all, and he further is obedient to still higher religious authority). But that’s from yesterday.

How are fathers (priests, or dads) depicted in sitcoms? In news coverage? Where I live, local news tends to honor priests only when they speak out against the bishop.

When our prolife group holds a major rally, we can’t get any coverage before, or after, no matter how many we get. But if any laity, even if they have very few people, protest against the bishop, there’s film at 11.
 
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That’s not what I am referring to. I would like you to explain why “the group” that chooses NOT to question clergy that may not be acting in the Church’s best interest or according to the accepted Historical doctrine is “not the crowd that’s likely to lead us astray in this decade.”
 
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ValleyCatholic said:
That’s not what I am referring to. I would like you to explain why “the group” that chooses NOT to question clergy that may not be acting in the Church’s best interest or according to the accepted Historical doctrine is “not the crowd that’s likely to lead us astray in this decade.”
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On occasion, following the crowd happens to be right, at one point. By exception. Ok.

In any decade, the current culture urges us to over emphasize certain truths, and underemphasize others.
On occasion, undermining the authority of the father of the family is tragically necessary in a particular case, by exception. But the current crowd isn’t reluctant at all to do that, they welcome the opportunity to depict fathers as weak, abusive, or silly.

The same with pastor or bishop. The secular culture doesn’t mobilize crowds with lies, but by emphasis on certain truths, suppressing others (like the ordinary authority of fathers in families, or bishops). The crowd makes the exception the rule, and the rule is forgotten.
 
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Rozellelily said:
I know many many people who have received flu vaccinations and have still subsequently received flu’s later. I can"t imagine why it would be any different with covid vaccines.
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You can’t imagine that because you don’t know how the vaccine works. The flu and COVID vaccines work differently and those differences completely eliminate the chance of the virus being able to replicate once injected via vaccine. There’s no COVID in the COVID vaccine.

Regardless, you can’t get the flu from a flu vaccine, as far as I’m aware. Never seen a documented case of it.
 
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