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CaptainPrudeman
Guest
Common sense and their own discretion should lead one to follow government guidance on this issue as things wind down with the vaccine. Civil disobedience will get you nowhere and only make things worse.
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CaptainPrudeman
Guest
This vaccine actually works by injecting mRNA code into the body, which the cells take up and use to produce a copy of a part of the Covid Spike protein. That protein is then recognized and destroyed. There’s no virus there, so there’s no issues with re-infection or weakening viruses.
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Socrates92
Guest
That depends on the volume of people doing it.
Worse in terms of what? Worse in terms of viral spread, or government overreach? If you’re talking about the former, there’s still zero statistical evidence that government policies have had any affect on the normal infection and death rates. The Gomertz curve (look it up) has been unaffected.
If you are talking about the latter, historically, the way you get a tyrrant under control is not by appeasing him. There is actual power, at least in terms of slowing the overreach, in actively resisting and defying the overreach.
yeah… no. The government has zero credibility. A substantial number of government officials don’t believe even believe the script themselves, as can be seen their own blatant contravention of their own rules in many cases.
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Beryllos
Guest
Got Agenda?
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Socrates92
Guest
Only if you consider a return to normal an “agenda”. May be more aptly called a “counter-agenda” but you can spin things any way you want if you don’t want to argue the actual points.
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Beryllos
Guest
Well, it looks like willful defiance, call it civil disobedience if you like, has made things much worse. As people grasp for normalcy, deluded by wishful thinking spun by a lifelong con man, they have missed the opportunity to beat COVID-19. By insisting on liberty, they have lost freedom.
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CaptainPrudeman
Guest
You may blast me for this, but why go through the trouble? Just play along until the vaccine comes out and everything goes back to normal. Then nobody gets hurt or arrested and you don’t take the risk of infecting others or being infected if you’re wrong.
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Peeps
Guest
I don’t plan on any civil disobedience. My husband is on his 14th day in the hospital, and although the doctor says he is doing better, he still isn’t out of the woods yet–COVID has really ravaged his lungs and he is still receiving a high amount of oxygen constantly. He can’t even talk to us, he’s so weak. He can text, but not for very long at a time before he has to rest.
All the things I enjoy doing involve people who aren’t likely to commit civil disobedience. The people in my parish, including my priests, are law-abiding, and unless the government commands us to do something contrary to God’s will, it’s not likely we’re going to disobey their recommendations.
And my musician friends are willing to stay home, wear masks, etc. because we don’t want to get sick–like my poor husband!
As for going to restaurants–the fun part about going to a restaurant is that we can relax and just eat and talk. We can’t relax in a restaurant when we are breaking the law and constantly looking out for “the cops”! Besides, we have to take our masks off to eat–and is it really worth it to go through what my husband is struggling to survive?
I think what’s so weird about this virus is that it can manifest itself in so many ways–some people just have annoying symptoms (like a bad cold), but others suffer (and I do mean suffer) life-threatening symptoms (my husband!) The only risk factor he has is high blood pressure–which is a fairly major risk factor. But he’s not that old, he doesn’t smoke (never has), and has no hint of diabetes or pre-diabetes. Why did he get attacked by a monster, while I was picked at by a tiny bug?
No, I see no reason for civil disobedience, especially now that the vaccine is here!
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F_Marturana
Guest
Praying for your husband to make a full recovery. 
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CaptainPrudeman
Guest
It isn’t. There’s absolutely no risk of harm to the person. I don’t even know how there could be, since all you’re doing is going into a factory, making a toy car, then showing it to someone so the next time they see it they’ll know what it is. The only parts of the cell the mRNA interact with are ribosomes to make the protein and the intracellular transport mechanisms to get the protein out. I challenge anyone who is scared of vaccines to explain what could go wrong in the process, with at least some specificity. If you can’t, perhaps don’t be so afraid of something you can’t explain, and trust those who do understand it that it’s safe?
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po18guy
Well-known member
No risk? Well, let’s see: from the FDA instructions to providers:
“SUMMARY OF INSTRUCTIONS FOR COVID-19 VACCINATION PROVIDERSVaccination providers enrolled in the federal COVID-19 Vaccination Program must report all vaccine administration errors, all serious adverse events, cases of Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome (MIS) in adults and children, and cases of C O VID-19 that result in hospitalization or death following administration of Pfizer-BioNTech C O VID-19 Vaccine.”
Do you know something that neither Phizer nor the FDA know?
In my case, I have a hyper-vigilant immune system transplanted into my marrow. I am therefore on immune suppression to a degree which likely prevents that same system from developing antibodies or responding to the vaccine.
We’ll see…
“SUMMARY OF INSTRUCTIONS FOR COVID-19 VACCINATION PROVIDERSVaccination providers enrolled in the federal COVID-19 Vaccination Program must report all vaccine administration errors, all serious adverse events, cases of Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome (MIS) in adults and children, and cases of C O VID-19 that result in hospitalization or death following administration of Pfizer-BioNTech C O VID-19 Vaccine.”
Do you know something that neither Phizer nor the FDA know?
In my case, I have a hyper-vigilant immune system transplanted into my marrow. I am therefore on immune suppression to a degree which likely prevents that same system from developing antibodies or responding to the vaccine.
We’ll see…
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CaptainPrudeman
Guest
You do realize that’s a required label, right? That’s not indicative of any risk in and of itself. Governments and scientists worldwide have determined it is safe enough for distribution and that we don’t need to worry about severe side-effects that make the vaccine not worth it.
You still haven’t explained anything about how the vaccine could actually cause harm.
You still haven’t explained anything about how the vaccine could actually cause harm.
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po18guy
Well-known member
There are deaths in the trials. And substantially increased adverse events in teens and below. Percentage-wise, those deaths and serious adverse events may not be all that far below the virus itself. MIS includes cytokine storms, as seen in some cases of CAR-T cell therapy. Angioimmunoblastic T-Cell Lymphoma can also cause it, as can Graft-versus-Host-Disease.
We’ll see when it hits the streets. Let us know how it goes.
We’ll see when it hits the streets. Let us know how it goes.
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CaptainPrudeman
Guest
Deaths must be reported even if there’s absolutely no link to the vaccine. It’s standard procedure. Please educate yourself on these things instead of taking every bit of antivax propoganda you see as fact.
Again, governments and scientists who know what they’re talking about have approved it for public use. It’s safe. Do not buy into the fear-mongering.
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Beryllos
Guest
You have an incomplete view of the process and the risks. I’ll explain how there can be harmful side effects:
As the RNA vaccine takes command of the cellular protein factory, it diverts cellular resources (ribosome and amino acids) needed by the cell. Resources used for manufacturing the viral protein are not available to manufacture native proteins, and the cell is less able to perform its normal life functions.
The cell generates foreign (viral) proteins that are not only useless to the cell, but get in the way of normal cellular operations. For example, viral spike proteins transported to the cell membrane will take up space in the membrane and interfere with native membrane proteins.
If these diverting and interfering effects alone do not kill the cell, the immune response surely will. Antibodies and T-cells produced in response to the vaccine will seek out and kill any cells bearing the viral proteins.
So, at a minimum, the cells involved in the RNA-directed production will die. They are sacrificed. This is no worse than what happens with the live virus. It’s better actually, because the RNA vaccine is not self-replicating like the virus. But a few cells are necessarily killed in the process. (By few, I mean millions, which is a small fraction of the billions of cells in the human body.)
I do not know which cell types are taken over by the RNA vaccine. If they are muscle cells or another type which is easily replaced, I would not be too worried. But what if the RNA vaccine has a high affinity for cells in a vital organ? That organ would become inflamed and compromised. This possibility worries me.
Finally there is concern over the immune response itself. If the vaccine triggers a prolonged inflammatory response in some individuals, or an auto-immune response, that can be life-changing and life-threatening.
I applaud your wish to encourage people to take the vaccine, but in so doing, you must not gloss over real and significant risks.
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CaptainPrudeman
Guest
It would take hundreds of amino acid molecules, an infinitesimal fraction of those you actually have. The effect will be utterly unnoticable.
Interfere? No. It’s a part of a linking protein, and as you said later, the body will pretty much instantly kill these cells with the spike protein. Don’t see risk there.
Any cell. The purpose of the fatty coating is, for one, storage, and two, to allow the RNA to enter into the cell via linking with the cell membrane. Cells in the local area would be the ones to take up the mRNA. No vital cells would be affected.
Risks which rely on a series of very unlikely events, the severity of which is much lower than the severity of the far more common COVID. What I’m trying to do is show people that if they don’t understand something well, they shouldn’t be afraid if people who do aren’t afraid, like the scientists that created and reviewed the vaccine. You seem to understand your stuff, so your worries can be rational.
Unfortunately, I missed the conspiracy theorist that said the vaccine has aborted baby parts and kills people.
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commenter
Guest
Well, on issues with various ethical implications, coming to a Catholic forum is reasonable.
In terms of development, the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines have been identified by US Catholic ethicists as non objectionable. Others may be, as well.
The Astra Zeneca vaccine is identified as problematic, in prolife terms. Others may be as well.
In terms of whether it is consistent with Catholic ethics to get the vaccine, or for government to mandate the vaccine, that is a separate question. But also applicable to ask on a Catholic forum.
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1ke
Guest
Actually, history is posting says otherwise. Much misinformation abounds on CAF. I go to Vatican, USCCB, NCBC, and other sources.
po18guy
Well-known member
Good post. Commendable. I am thinking of obtaining my research hematologist’s assessment of risks. My transplanted hyper-vigilant immune system and its affinity to produce Graft-versus-Host-Disease is my primary concern, as it is capable of flaring at unknown provocation, and with CoViD-19 caliber inflammation a distinct possibility.
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