A question for ALL

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TheTrinitySaves said:
How is that not a lie
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If I tell you I want you to drive to point X, then when you are halfway there, I tell you I now want you to turn around and go home, my first instruction to you was not a lie. Both conditions were true at the time that I said them.
 
According to logic two contradictory statements cannot both be true, In this case god made two contradictory statements (Sacrafice Isaac to prove your faithfulness) vs (I was testing if you were faithful) One of them must be false. The 1st statement is false. God was intentionally testing him my friend, it was not a misinterpretation by Abraham, if Abraham had not taken Isaac and prepared him for sacrificed God would have seen Abraham as unfaithful.
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
According to logic two contradictory statements cannot both be true, In this case god made two contradictory statements (Sacrafice Isaac to prove your faithfulness) vs (I was testing if you were faithful) One of them must be false. The 1st statement is false. God was intentionally testing him my friend, it was not a misinterpretation by Abraham, if Abraham had not taken Isaac and prepared him for sacrificed God would have seen Abraham as unfaithful.
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These are not statements, they are commands.
You are misunderstanding the situation. As Casslean said,
if I command you to go somewhere, then later tell you to stop and retrace your steps, there is no lie involved. There is only a change in plans.

.
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
According to logic two contradictory statements cannot both be true, In this case god made two contradictory statements (Sacrafice Isaac to prove your faithfulness) vs (I was testing if you were faithful) One of them must be false. The 1st statement is false. God was intentionally testing him my friend, it was not a misinterpretation by Abraham, if Abraham had not taken Isaac and prepared him for sacrificed God would have seen Abraham as unfaithful.
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God did not make statements. He gave commands for actions to be completed. A command is true or false based on the intention of the speaker at the time the command is given.

If God had said, “You must sacrifice Isaac to prove your faithfulness to me” and Abraham had said “No, I will not,” and then God had accepted (without any interceding event) that Abraham was faithful, then the first statement would have been false.

Have you taken any classes in philosophy or logic? This topic gets covered in most intro-level university courses.
 
casslean said:
God did not make statements. He gave commands for actions to be completed. A command is true or false based on the intention of the speaker at the time the command is given.

If God had said, “You must sacrifice Isaac to prove your faithfulness to me” and Abraham had said “No, I will not,” and then God had accepted (without any interceding event) that Abraham was faithful, then the first statement would have been false.

Have you taken any classes in philosophy or logic? This topic gets covered in most intro-level university courses.
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Yes, However God never intended for Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, it was a ultimate test to see how faithful Abraham was. God lied to Abraham by telling him he had to sacrafice his son, when in reality God never wanted him to sacrifice Isaac as God had great plans for Isaac. It was a test to see if he was faithful. I am not calling God wrong, it was a brilliant test. But it does not change the fact that he told Abraham wrong information as a test of his faithfulness. Do you understand my argument?

Peace, and Glory to God.
-trinity
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
Yes, However God never intended for Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, it was a ultimate test to see how faithful Abraham was. God lied to Abraham by telling him he had to sacrafice his son, when in reality God never wanted him to sacrifice Isaac as God had great plans for Isaac. It was a test to see if he was faithful. I am not calling God wrong, it was a brilliant test. But it does not change the fact that he told Abraham wrong information as a test of his faithfulness. Do you understand my argument?

Peace, and Glory to God.
-trinity
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I see where your argument is flawed. You don’t know what God’s intent was when He gave the command. None of us knows what is in another’s heart, and certainly not God’s. You are assuming that because God gave a command that contradicted His earlier command, He didn’t intend his earlier command.

Given that we know God cannot lie (as He is perfect and without Sin), and that such an action would be a lie, it’s a logical fallacy to conclude God acted in this way.
 
casslean said:
I see where your argument is flawed. You don’t know what God’s intent was when He gave the command. None of us knows what is in another’s heart, and certainly not God’s. You are assuming that because God gave a command that contradicted His earlier command, He didn’t intend his earlier command.

Given that we know God cannot lie (as He is perfect and without Sin), and that such an action would be a lie, it’s a logical fallacy to conclude God acted in this way.
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A lie is not always a sin my friend. And you assume god is incapable of lying, where did you get that assumption?
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
A lie is not always a sin my friend. And you assume god is incapable of lying, where did you get that assumption?
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God is capable of anything; He cannot or does not lie because to do so would be to go against His own nature - “God is infinitely good and all his works are good.” (CCC 382)

Lying is most certainly a sin - it may not always be a mortal sin, but it is a sin, a moral imperfection. The Catechism states that “The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil” (CCC 2482) and “By its very nature, lying is to be condemned… The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are left astray.”

Lying to someone to have them sacrifice their child when there was no intent to have them sacrifice that child would be a grave lie indeed.

God is perfect and good, He does not have moral imperfection such as those that lead us as humans to lie. Ergo, God does not lie.
 
Read the Bible on Abraham. God tested Abraham, our adopted earthly father, in many ways. God was testing him and forging him as lesser metal into precious metals. God says this several times to Abraham.

Abraham and his wife Sarah became the parents of nations, the earthly ancestors of Jesus, their seed became like grains of sand across the earth.

God first asked Abraham ( Abram) to leave Ur, to be led into a land Abraham would inherit forever. Lot went with him, and their people.

Then Sarah was barren. But God promised Abraham a son who would start the inheritence, Isaac. Now Abraham and Sarah had a child by Hagar, Ishmael, thinking this was how the promise of God would be fulfilled.
Sarah did conceive in her old age and have Isaac. Ishmael did found a nation too.

There were a few wars before Isaac was born.and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham pleaded that city’s case with God’s destruction angels.

Then God’s final test of Abraham, and his formation to be the father of all nations, our adopted ancestor too, was to tell Abraham He required the first fruits sacrifice of Isaac.

I imagine this not only affected Abraham, but also Isaac.

Abraham’s obedience to this ultimate sacrifice, was unquavering.
AND the rest, as they say, is history. There was a ram found to replace the sacrifice of Isaac.

Think of this.

God went on to sacrifice His first fruit, His own Son. Jesus Christ, for our repentence and forgiveness, and for mercy.

Do you really believe God would sacrifice His Son for those intentions if God intended not taking His own commandments gravely.

Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy mind, soul, heart.
Thou shalt not bear false witness.

And one commandment about slander I am questioning your question might be doing to God !

Read and reread the chapter. Ponder the comparison of sacrificing first fruits in Sons. Ponder the formation of Souls.

Jesus said, ’ the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak’ after praying in the garden during his Passion, a sacrifice for His Father and us.

I pray for the gift of Grace to strengthening your faith and complete trust in God
 
Brassring said:
“God said ‘Let there be light, and there was light…’”

Even if God spoke something that wasn’t true, it would become true by virtue of the fact that God said it.

God doesn’t say things because they are true. Things are true because God says them.
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LOVE the LOGIC of your last line here:thumbsup:

BUT IF, if this is true & I believe it is] than why is their such a multiplicity of Christian faiths?

GBY

Patrick
 
PJM said:
“Did God ever lie to you”

Blessings

Patrick
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  1. In what way is God the truth?
God is Truth itself and as such he can neither deceive nor be deceived. He is “light, and in him there is no darkness” (1 John 1:5). The eternal Son of God, the incarnation of wisdom, was sent into the world “to bear witness to the Truth” (John 18:37).

Further reading: CCC 214-217, 231

I found this in my inbox about God and deception in the Catechism in a year program I am reading.

Just google Catechism in a year and sign up; sorry the link won’t post on my friend’s computer.
 
Thankyou , + 1
😇

To PJM why are you scandalising readers by suggesting such a thing?

Why are you slandering the Lord your God?

God bless you and may the wonderful and glorious Holy Spirit gift you strengthening faith.

And, with respect, are you yet in a position to publish books on Catholicism, while questions like this occupy you?

There is already so much confusion and conflict out there.
 
MaryT777 said:
  1. In what way is God the truth?
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From Father John A Hardon S.J., one of the most respected Theologians of the 20th century

[1] TRUTH is the condition of Grace & therefore GOD]; it is the source of Grace, it is the channel of Grace; it is the divinely ordained requirement of Grace."

[2] Our God can be defined as: “All good things perfected”

So is “TRUTH”, which can be only singular per defined issue, a “good thing?” Of course it is and therefore it is Godly
God is Truth itself and as such he can neither deceive nor be deceived. He is “light, and in him there is no darkness” (1 John 1:5). The eternal Son of God, the incarnation of wisdom, was sent into the world “to bear witness to the Truth” (John 18:37).
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Further reading: CCC 214-217, 231
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So your question was rhetorical & we agree:thumbsup:

GBY

I found this in my inbox about God and deception in the Catechism in a year program I am reading.

Just google Catechism in a year and sign up; sorry the link won’t post on my friend’s computer.
 
God intentionally lied to Abraham as a a test. He was right in lying to him as a brilliant test to see how faithful he was. If you guys are to closed minded to realize that, then I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
God intentionally lied to Abraham as a a test. He was right in lying to him as a brilliant test to see how faithful he was. If you guys are to closed minded to realize that, then I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.
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We’re not closed-minded. We’ve provided clear and concise arguments, based on current church authority, as to why that cannot be the case. You simply choose not to accept them and provide no authority to support your opinion.

But I will agree this discussion has gone as far as it can go.
 
casslean said:
We’re not closed-minded. We’ve provided clear and concise arguments, based on current church authority, as to why that cannot be the case. You simply choose not to accept them and provide no authority to support your opinion.

But I will agree this discussion has gone as far as it can go.
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You simply choose not to accept that two clearly opposite command commands means one has to be false.
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
You simply choose not to accept that two clearly opposite command commands means one has to be false.
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What is your authority for that statement?

If I command you to do A, as long as I intend you to do A when I said it, it is TRUE, even if I later tell you to do the opposite of A. This is a basic principle of logic. The truth of the statement is determined not solely by its content, but also by the speaker’s intent.

CCC 2482 “A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving.”
 
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