A question for ALL

[PJM]

OK

**WHAT “Such a thing?”

SORRY:blush: I’m on multiple STRINGS and have not the slighest idea off what has you so up set.

You share it & God willing, Ill explain it a bit better for you

As a FYI, My questions are NOT for ME, but to engage others in discussions

God Bless you**

Patrick

 

[PJM]

God intentionally lied to Abraham as a a test. He was right in lying to him as a brilliant test to see how faithful he was. If you guys are to closed minded to realize that, then I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

Thanks, I know the story, but HOW did God “lie” to Abraham?

I see where God TESTED Abraham’s Faith, but I don’t recall a lie?

Can I help you with your frustrations?

I’m a trained, tested and experienced Catholic Catechist [teacher]. Send me a Private message if you wish to talk about your concerns?

God Bless you,
PRAY MUCH and hang in there!

Patrick [PJM] here on CAF

 

[PJM]

God gave man the gift of free will. To obey Him and choose to listen to Him, or to be disobedient and choose not to listen to Him. God was testing Abraham to see if he would obey His command and listen to Him and follow what He told him to do. Or, to see if Abraham would disobey Him and do as he [Abraham] pleased. God knowing that Abraham was a good and righteous person, stopped Abraham from sacrificing Issac, and instead offered an animal in Issac’s place to be sacrificed. And when sacrificing the animal, God knew He had an obedient and righteous person in Abraham. And because Abraham was obedient to God, willing to give his only biological son, he [Abraham] would be made the ‘‘father of many nations’’. I hope I have explained it so that you understand it;/QUOTE]

OK, I see here a God=TEST, but not a lie

God’s promise and the prayer of Faith

 

[PJM]

No, I’m not. Read the posts more carefully before making accusations, please.

Also, in case you needed further persuading.

From the Catechism:

CCC 215 “The sum of your word is truth; and every one of your righteous ordinances endures forever.” “And now, O LORD God, you are God, and your words are true”; this is why God’s promises always come true. God is Truth itself, whose words cannot deceive. This is why one can abandon oneself in full trust to the truth and faithfulness of his word in all things. The beginning of sin and of man’s fall was due to a lie of the tempter who induced doubt of God’s word, kindness and faithfulness.

NICELY done!

Thanks

 

[PJM]

Maybe lied is not the best word, but I think god has tested me in the same way he tested Abraham.

I posted the above in my first post if that helps clarify my position.

AGREED!

Thanks

GBY!

 

[PJM]

That post was to PJM.

And yes , anyone degrading the Holiness of God is slandering.

OK, I CAN agree in part with that; BUT HOW dear friend, did I do that?

GBY

Patrick [the OP] PJM

 

[PJM]

How am I committing a strawman fallacy? I am directly addressing the core of your argument - namely, that you haven’t proven (which you need to do for your argument to work, that simply because two statements given suibsequent to each other providing conflicting instructions, one must be false.

I will put this in terms of a logic test for you though:

Fact A: God is truth itself, whose words cannot deceive. (CCC 215)
Fact B: A lie consists of speaking a falsehood with** the intention to deceive**. (CCC 2482)
If God spoke the words, those words cannot deceive.
Therefore, God did not speak a lie.

NOT TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT; BUT WHAT IS “A STRAWMAN FALlICY?” If you don’t explaining it to me:shrug:

GBY

 

[casslean]

NOT TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT; BUT WHAT IS “A STRAWMAN FALlICY?” If you don’t explaining it to me:shrug:

GBY

A strawman fallacy is where the opposing party refuses to engage with their opponent’s argument, and instead present a different argument altogether (and often one that is a misrepresented, distorted or exaggerated version of the actual argument) and attack that argument. In doing so, they attempt to give the impression that they have actually addressed their opponent’s position.

The popular pro-abortion criticism of the pro-life movement is a classic example of a straw man fallacy.

They present the argument as:
People who oppose abortion want to take rights away from women.
Taking rights away from women is bad/unfair/a violation of human rights/etc
Ergo, people who oppose abortion are bad.

It ignores the true argument, which is that an unborn child is a life too, and as such is worthy of protection, because that’s a much stronger argument to refute.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

To both The Trinity Saves and PJM.

Because I havent mastered the multiple quote thing.

I have done so multiple times, please read my responses more clearly honey. While you seem intent on being “God”, I have much more important matters to attend to my dear. I cannot have a conversation with someone accusing me of Satan’s work and slander against my friend. Have a nice week.

Nope, you dont pick up your bat and ball and run off. Nice try though!

Ok now the word you need from the passage is OFFER.

God Asked ( asked, not ordered) Abraham to OFFER his son up as a burnt sacrifice OFFERING.

There is absolutely NO LIE here.

For example,
I can OFFER you a piece of cake. You are not required to accept it.

All God asked for was an OFFERING. God did not say kill and burn your son, Isaac.

God said, OFFER your son as a burnt OFFERING.

See the difference.

To both PJM and TheTrinitySaves, if we can agree God has not, never has, never will, would never even contemplate lying,

Then we can agree we are truly for The Lord Our God.

OFFER

 

[PJM]

A strawman fallacy is where the opposing party refuses to engage with their opponent’s argument, and instead present a different argument altogether (and often one that is a misrepresented, distorted or exaggerated version of the actual argument) and attack that argument. In doing so, they attempt to give the impression that they have actually addressed their opponent’s position.

The popular pro-abortion criticism of the pro-life movement is a classic example of a straw man fallacy.

They present the argument as:
People who oppose abortion want to take rights away from women.
Taking rights away from women is bad/unfair/a violation of human rights/etc
Ergo, people who oppose abortion are bad.

It ignores the true argument, which is that an unborn child is a life too, and as such is worthy of protection, because that’s a much stronger argument to refute.

Thank you so very much! Now I get it

GBY

Patrick

 

[PJM]

To both The Trinity Saves and PJM.

Because I havent mastered the multiple quote thing.

For multiple quotes simply [in CAPS]

Start of quote [qote] and End of the quote **

Nope, you dont pick up your bat and ball and run off. Nice try though!

Ok now the word you need from the passage is OFFER.

God Asked ( asked, not ordered) Abraham to OFFER his son up as a burnt sacrifice OFFERING.

There is absolutely NO LIE here.

For example,
I can OFFER you a piece of cake. You are not required to accept it.

All God asked for was an OFFERING. God did not say kill and burn your son, Isaac.

God said, OFFER your son as a burnt OFFERING.

See the difference.

To both PJM and TheTrinitySaves, if we can agree God has not, never has, never will, would never even contemplate lying,

Then we can agree we are truly for The Lord Our God.

OFFER

Speaking ONLY for myself, we agree:thumbsup:

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

To both The Trinity Saves and PJM.

Because I havent mastered the multiple quote thing.

Nope, you dont pick up your bat and ball and run off. Nice try though!

Ok now the word you need from the passage is OFFER.

God Asked ( asked, not ordered) Abraham to OFFER his son up as a burnt sacrifice OFFERING.

There is absolutely NO LIE here.

For example,
I can OFFER you a piece of cake. You are not required to accept it.

All God asked for was an OFFERING. God did not say kill and burn your son, Isaac.

God said, OFFER your son as a burnt OFFERING.

See the difference.

To both PJM and TheTrinitySaves, if we can agree God has not, never has, never will, would never even contemplate lying,

Then we can agree we are truly for The Lord Our God.

OFFER

I have observed you have fallen into the sinful habit of condenming non catholics and those who dare disagree with your ideas. On this and other threads you immediately attack by claiming they our the spawn of satan or that they are colluding with satan for disagreeing with you. Like you did to me in this thread. What a shame. Thats a way to displease God my friend, by trying to take his place when judging people in a way only he can judge. I will not tolerate that behavior. I will leave God to judge you.

Their is no language in the bible that suggests God was simply asking Abraham to sacrafice his son. Please re read the bible and come back with a more substantive arguement and leave the insults and name calling and satan remarks back home.

Peace

-Trinity

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

**I am not attacking you. However, you are in error , and slandering the Lord , when you use the word ’ lying’

And that, my friend, is the work of satan.** Fight the attempt at misquoting God’s word

Did you work out where you are in error?

Its pretty easy, it is in God’s request to Abraham.

Read the passage and show me which word/sentence/ paragraph is a lie.

Unfortunately calling me the laborer of Satan is a attack. And a very insulting one.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Casslean,

Your logic is flawed.

You assumed the very thing that we were arguing about as a premise in your argument.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

We’re not closed-minded. We’ve provided clear and concise arguments, based on current church authority, as to why that cannot be the case. You simply choose not to accept them and provide no authority to support your opinion.

But I will agree this discussion has gone as far as it can go.

I have provided plenty of authority for my argument but you refuse to acknowledge the evidence i have provided and resort to desperation name calling and insults.

 

[casslean]

Casslean,

Your logic is flawed.

You assumed the very thing that we were arguing about as a premise in your argument.

Can you show me where I’ve done that in the logic argument I’ve presented? The facts I’m presenting are directly quoted from the Catechism, and thus are the accepted teaching of the Church.

I have provided plenty of authority for my argument but you refuse to acknowledge the evidence i have provided and resort to desperation name calling and insults.

What authorities have you quoted to support your position? You’ve presented Scripture and repeatedly given your interpretation, but no Church authority (the Catechism, Doctors of the church, etc) supports your position. On the contrary, the Catechism directly contradicts what you are saying.

And again, I have not engaged in any name-calling. Please do not make unfounded accusations. If you are insulted by my arguments, that is your choice as I have said nothing that is personally insulting, only addressed your position. If you are feeling insulted, you may want to consider whether or not you are approaching this discussion with the humility the Jesus asks us to have in all things, or if you are merely feeling insulted because your pride has been hurt.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Can you show me where I’ve done that in the logic argument I’ve presented? The facts I’m presenting are directly quoted from the Catechism, and thus are the accepted teaching of the Church.

What authorities have you quoted to support your position? You’ve presented Scripture and repeatedly given your interpretation, but no Church authority (the Catechism, Doctors of the church, etc) supports your position. On the contrary, the Catechism directly contradicts what you are saying.

And again, I have not engaged in any name-calling. Please do not make unfounded accusations. If you are insulted by my arguments, that is your choice as I have said nothing that is personally insulting, only addressed your position. If you are feeling insulted, you may want to consider whether or not you are approaching this discussion with the humility the Jesus asks us to have in all things, or if you are merely feeling insulted because your pride has been hurt.

I disagree with your interpretation and all you can blurt out are personal insults and the catechism line. Well that line is the very thing were debating and for you to use it as a assumption is a logical fallacy at best. I provided you with the scripture proving that catechism and you wrong, and all you can respond with is a pretend notion that calling me satan is not a personal attack. God lies to me all the time and took everything from me, stop telling me he does not lie.

 

[casslean]

I disagree with your interpretation and all you can blurt out are personal insults and the catechism line. Well that line is the very thing were debating and for you to use it as a assumption is a logical fallacy at best. I provided you with the scripture proving that catechism and you wrong, and all you can respond with is a pretend notion that calling me satan is not a personal attack. God lies to me all the time and took everything from me, stop telling me he does not lie.

First, if you are going to refuse to accept the words of the Catechism, which is the accepted teachings of the Church, as a fact, then my discussion with you on this topic is over. If you have questions or an argument over the teachings of the church, speak to your pastor.

Second, please refrain from attacking me about comments made by other individuals on this forum. If I didn’t directly make the comment, I am not responsible for it.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

First, if you are going to refuse to accept the words of the Catechism, which is the accepted teachings of the Church, as a fact, then my discussion with you on this topic is over. If you have questions or an argument over the teachings of the church, speak to your pastor.

Second, please refrain from attacking me about comments made by other individuals on this forum. If I didn’t directly make the comment, I am not responsible for it.

1. I obey gods words, not the Catechisms. I read the bible and follow it, not power hungry individuals who are looking for a buck then when you need them for support they abandon you which is what happened to me after all the time i spent at the church.
2. If you truly believe the words you just typed, please condemn roseacross for calling me the spawn of satan. If you do not do that you are participating by being a bystander. Those who watch injustice but do not try and stop it are just as at fault at those who par take in it. This is church teaching which you so closely follow.

 

[casslean]

1. I obey gods words, not the Catechisms. I read the bible and follow it, not power hungry individuals who are looking for a buck then when you need them for support they abandon you which is what happened to me after all the time i spent at the church.
2. If you truly believe the words you just typed, please condemn roseacross for calling me the spawn of satan. If you do not do that you are participating by being a bystander. Those who watch injustice but do not try and stop it are just as at fault at those who par take in it. This is church teaching which you so closely follow.

I don’t think you know what you believe. I think you are very confused and very hurt and I pray you find some help and some peace and come to accept the truth in what we have all been saying.