A question for ALL

[Roseeurekacross]

God intentionally lied to Abraham as a a test. He was right in lying to him as a brilliant test to see how faithful he was. If you guys are to closed minded to realize that, then I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

Read the bible!

Here are the passages. Genesis

The Testing of Abraham.
1
Some time afterward, God put Abraham to the test and said to him: Abraham! “Here I am!” he replied
2
Then God said: Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There offer him up as a burnt offering on one of the heights that I will point out to you.
3
Early the next morning Abraham saddled his donkey, took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac, and after cutting the wood for the burnt offering, set out for the place of which God had told him.

4
On the third day Abraham caught sight of the place from a distance.
5
Abraham said to his servants: “Stay here with the donkey, while the boy and I go on over there. We will worship and then come back to you.”
6
So Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and laid it on his son Isaac, while he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two walked on together,
7
Isaac spoke to his father Abraham. “Father!” he said. “Here I am,” he replied. Isaac continued, “Here are the fire and the wood, but where is the sheep for the burnt offering?”
8
“My son,” Abraham answered, “God will provide the sheep for the burnt offering.” Then the two walked on together.
9
When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. Next he bound his son Isaac, and put him on top of the wood on the altar.
10
Then Abraham reached out and took the knife to slaughter his son.
11
But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven, “Abraham, Abraham!” “Here I am,” he answered.
12
“Do not lay your hand on the boy,” said the angel. “Do not do the least thing to him. For now I know that you fear God, since you did not withhold from me your son, your only one.”

Now, there is a crucial word in this passage that you deny, thus slandering the Lord your God.

Then God said: Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There offer him up as a burnt offering on one of the heights that I will point out to you.

What is the crucial word?

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

What is your authority for that statement?

If I command you to do A, as long as I intend you to do A when I said it, it is TRUE, even if I later tell you to do the opposite of A. This is a basic principle of logic. The truth of the statement is determined not solely by its content, but also by the speaker’s intent.

CCC 2482 “A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving.”

God never intended for Abraham to kill Isaac. It was a Test.! This is basic interpretation of scripture we are talking about!

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Read the bible!

Here are the passages. Genesis

The **Testing **of Abraham.
1
Some time afterward, God put Abraham to the test and said to him: Abraham! “Here I am!” he replied
2
Then God said: Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There offer him up as a burnt offering on one of the heights that I will point out to you.
3
Early the next morning Abraham saddled his donkey, took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac, and after cutting the wood for the burnt offering, set out for the place of which God had told him.

4
On the third day Abraham caught sight of the place from a distance.
5
Abraham said to his servants: “Stay here with the donkey, while the boy and I go on over there. We will worship and then come back to you.”
6
So Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and laid it on his son Isaac, while he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two walked on together,
7
Isaac spoke to his father Abraham. “Father!” he said. “Here I am,” he replied. Isaac continued, “Here are the fire and the wood, but where is the sheep for the burnt offering?”
8
“My son,” Abraham answered, “God will provide the sheep for the burnt offering.” Then the two walked on together.
9
When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. Next he bound his son Isaac, and put him on top of the wood on the altar.
10
Then Abraham reached out and took the knife to slaughter his son.
11
But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven, “Abraham, Abraham!” “Here I am,” he answered.
12
“Do not lay your hand on the boy,” said the angel. “Do not do the least thing to him.** For now I know that you fear God,** since you did not withhold from me your son, your only one.”

Now, there is a crucial word in this passage that you deny, thus slandering the Lord your God.

Then God said: Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There offer him up as a burnt offering on one of the heights that I will point out to you.

What is the crucial word?

God was testing Abrahams love for him, Why cannot you have a civil conversation with me instead of attacking me with blasphemous attacks. I do not slander the lord simply because I disagree with your interpretation of scripture. How dare you levy that accusation against me!

 

[casslean]

God never intended for Abraham to kill Isaac. It was a Test.! This is basic interpretation of scripture we are talking about!

God never instructed Abraham to kill Isaac. He instructed him to “offer his son up as a burnt offering” and Abraham did just that - he offered his son up as a burnt offering and then just before sacrificing him, God instructed Abraham that all he had done was now sufficient. He had fulfilled his instructions.

You are putting your own interpretation on this Scripture. It is not any official interpretation of which I am aware. If you have any authority that supports your interpretation, please feel freee to point me to it.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

God gave man the gift of free will. To obey Him and choose to listen to Him, or to be disobedient and choose not to listen to Him. God was testing Abraham to see if he would obey His command and listen to Him and follow what He told him to do. Or, to see if Abraham would disobey Him and do as he [Abraham] pleased. God knowing that Abraham was a good and righteous person, stopped Abraham from sacrificing Issac, and instead offered an animal in Issac’s place to be sacrificed. And when sacrificing the animal, God knew He had an obedient and righteous person in Abraham. And because Abraham was obedient to God, willing to give his only biological son, he [Abraham] would be made the ‘‘father of many nations’’. I hope I have explained it so that you understand it.

God’s promise and the prayer of Faith

2570 When God calls him, Abraham goes forth “as the Lord had told him”;8 Abraham’s heart is entirely submissive to the Word and so he obeys. Such attentiveness of the heart, whose decisions are made according to God’s will, is essential to prayer, while the words used count only in relation to it. Abraham’s prayer is expressed first by deeds: a man of silence, he constructs an altar to the Lord at each stage of his journey. Only later does Abraham’s first prayer in words appear: a veiled complaint reminding God of his promises which seem unfulfilled.9 Thus one aspect of the drama of prayer appears from the beginning: the test of faith in the fidelity of God.

2571 Because Abraham believed in God and walked in his presence and in covenant with him,10 the patriarch is ready to welcome a mysterious Guest into his tent. Abraham’s remarkable hospitality at Mamre foreshadows the annunciation of the true Son of the promise.11 After that, once God had confided his plan, Abraham’s heart is attuned to his Lord’s compassion for men and he dares to intercede for them with bold confidence.12

2572 As a final stage in the purification of his faith, Abraham, "who had received the promises,"13 is asked to sacrifice the son God had given him. Abraham’s faith does not weaken (“God himself will provide the lamb for a burnt offering.”), for he "considered that God was able to raise men even from the dead."14 And so the father of believers is conformed to the likeness of the Father who will not spare his own Son but will deliver him up for us all.15 Prayer restores man to God’s likeness and enables him to share in the power of God’s love that saves the multitude.16

2573 God renews his promise to Jacob, the ancestor of the twelve tribes of Israel.17 Before confronting his elder brother Esau, Jacob wrestles all night with a mysterious figure who refuses to reveal his name, but he blesses him before leaving him at dawn. From this account, the spiritual tradition of the Church has retained the symbol of prayer as a battle of faith and as the triumph of perseverance.18
Peace be with you!

P.S You and Roseacross seem determined to loft personal insults and condemnations against those in the thread that disagree with you. I would advise for you to halt that behavior.

 

[casslean]

God gave man the gift of free will. To obey Him and choose to listen to Him, or to be disobedient and choose not to listen to Him. God was testing Abraham to see if he would obey His command and listen to Him and follow what He told him to do. Or, to see if Abraham would disobey Him and do as he [Abraham] pleased. God knowing that Abraham was a good and righteous person, stopped Abraham from sacrificing Issac, and instead offered an animal in Issac’s place to be sacrificed. And when sacrificing the animal, God knew He had an obedient and righteous person in Abraham. And because Abraham was obedient to God, willing to give his only biological son, he [Abraham] would be made the ‘‘father of many nations’’. I hope I have explained it so that you understand it.

God’s promise and the prayer of Faith

2570 When God calls him, Abraham goes forth “as the Lord had told him”;8 Abraham’s heart is entirely submissive to the Word and so he obeys. Such attentiveness of the heart, whose decisions are made according to God’s will, is essential to prayer, while the words used count only in relation to it. Abraham’s prayer is expressed first by deeds: a man of silence, he constructs an altar to the Lord at each stage of his journey. Only later does Abraham’s first prayer in words appear: a veiled complaint reminding God of his promises which seem unfulfilled.9 Thus one aspect of the drama of prayer appears from the beginning: the test of faith in the fidelity of God.

2571 Because Abraham believed in God and walked in his presence and in covenant with him,10 the patriarch is ready to welcome a mysterious Guest into his tent. Abraham’s remarkable hospitality at Mamre foreshadows the annunciation of the true Son of the promise.11 After that, once God had confided his plan, Abraham’s heart is attuned to his Lord’s compassion for men and he dares to intercede for them with bold confidence.12

2572 As a final stage in the purification of his faith, Abraham, "who had received the promises,"13 is asked to sacrifice the son God had given him. Abraham’s faith does not weaken (“God himself will provide the lamb for a burnt offering.”), for he "considered that God was able to raise men even from the dead."14 And so the father of believers is conformed to the likeness of the Father who will not spare his own Son but will deliver him up for us all.15 Prayer restores man to God’s likeness and enables him to share in the power of God’s love that saves the multitude.16

2573 God renews his promise to Jacob, the ancestor of the twelve tribes of Israel.17 Before confronting his elder brother Esau, Jacob wrestles all night with a mysterious figure who refuses to reveal his name, but he blesses him before leaving him at dawn. From this account, the spiritual tradition of the Church has retained the symbol of prayer as a battle of faith and as the triumph of perseverance.18
Peace be with you!

P.S You and Roseacross seem determined to loft personal insults and condemnations against those in the thread that disagree with you. I would advise for you to halt that behavior.

I haven’t been “lofting” any personal insults or condemnations - though I will remind you that you were the one who called me closed-minded for not agreeing with you. I am pointing out the flaws in your arguments, which you are repeating over and over rather than responding to my statements. The passages you’ve quoted (I assume from the Catechism) do not support your assertion that God “lied”, or in fact, that God would even lie (as Church teaching asserts that God would not lie).

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Hello Cassean,

You’re the one accusing me of “slandering” the lord. An offensive and extremely insulting remark.

 

[casslean]

Hello Cassean,

You’re the one accusing me of “slandering” the lord. An offensive and extremely insulting remark.

No, I’m not. Read the posts more carefully before making accusations, please.

Also, in case you needed further persuading.

From the Catechism:

CCC 215 “The sum of your word is truth; and every one of your righteous ordinances endures forever.” “And now, O LORD God, you are God, and your words are true”; this is why God’s promises always come true. God is Truth itself, whose words cannot deceive. This is why one can abandon oneself in full trust to the truth and faithfulness of his word in all things. The beginning of sin and of man’s fall was due to a lie of the tempter who induced doubt of God’s word, kindness and faithfulness.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

I haven’t been “lofting” any personal insults or condemnations - though I will remind you that you were the one who called me closed-minded for not agreeing with you. I am pointing out the flaws in your arguments, which you are repeating over and over rather than responding to my statements. The passages you’ve quoted (I assume from the Catechism) do not support your assertion that God “lied”, or in fact, that God would even lie (as Church teaching asserts that God would not lie).

I will refute your counter argument with an analogy.

God Commands X
Abraham is about to do X
Abraham passes the test and therefore God does not command Abraham to do X
God Commands Y (The animal offered instead)

Y is different then X

Therefore making X a lie.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Thankyou , + 1


To PJM why are you scandalising readers by suggesting such a thing?
**
Why are you slandering the Lord your God?

God bless you and may the wonderful and glorious Holy Spirit gift you strengthening faith.**

And, with respect, are you yet in a position to publish books on Catholicism, while questions like this occupy you?

There is already so much confusion and conflict out there.

You and roseacross did.
Yes you did, here is proof.

 

[casslean]

You and roseacross did.
Yes you did, here is proof.

That isn’t me speaking. I am not responsible for what another person chooses to write.

God Commands X
Abraham is about to do X
Abraham passes the test and therefore God does not command Abraham to do X
God Commands Y (The animal offered instead)

Y is different then X

Therefore making X a lie.

Your analogy is a logical fallacy called begging the question. It assumes your conclusion (that if Y and X are different, then it must have been a lie) without proving it.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

That isn’t me speaking. I am not responsible for what another person chooses to write.

Your analogy is a logical fallacy called begging the question. It assumes your conclusion (that if Y and X are different, then it must have been a lie) without proving it.

Yet you are seemingly unwilling to distance yourself from that rhetoric.
You are committing the strawman fallacy my friend, and committing a major violation.

God was TESTING Abraham. God never wanted Abraham to KILL ISAAC. It was a TEST. I cannot stress this enough.

 

[casslean]

You are committing the strawman fallacy my friend, and committing a major violation.

How am I committing a strawman fallacy? I am directly addressing the core of your argument - namely, that you haven’t proven (which you need to do for your argument to work, that simply because two statements given suibsequent to each other providing conflicting instructions, one must be false.

I will put this in terms of a logic test for you though:

Fact A: God is truth itself, whose words cannot deceive. (CCC 215)
Fact B: A lie consists of speaking a falsehood with** the intention to deceive**. (CCC 2482)
If God spoke the words, those words cannot deceive.
Therefore, God did not speak a lie.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

How am I committing a strawman fallacy? I am directly addressing the core of your argument - namely, that you haven’t proven (which you need to do for your argument to work, that simply because two statements given suibsequent to each other providing conflicting instructions, one must be false.

I will put this in terms of a logic test for you though:

Fact A: God is truth itself, whose words cannot deceive. (CCC 215)
Fact B: A lie consists of speaking a falsehood with** the intention to deceive**. (CCC 2482)
If God spoke the words, those words cannot deceive.
Therefore, God did not speak a lie.

My apologies I should have clarified, You are committing the strawman through refusing to disagree with roseacross accusations of slander against me.
I am not talking about deceiving, I am talking about a test. God was asking for Abraham’s son as a sacrafice proving his faithfulness. (Not required). God later tells Abraham not to sacrafice his son (Truth).

Truth- The sacrafice of Isaac was not required, only the fact that Abraham was willing to do it.
False- The sacrafice was required.

Do you understand my argument my friend?

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Maybe lied is not the best word, but I think god has tested me in the same way he tested Abraham.

I posted the above in my first post if that helps clarify my position.

 

[casslean]

Maybe lied is not the best word, but I think god has tested me in the same way he tested Abraham.

I posted the above in my first post if that helps clarify my position.

I understand your point.
God may have tested you by asking you to do things which you found difficult or which you believed impossible, but those tests did not amount to a lie.

My apologies I should have clarified, You are committing the strawman through refusing to disagree with roseacross accusations of slander against me.

That is not a strawman fallacy. A strawman fallacy is where one refuses to engage with the argument being put forth and instead attempts to respond to another argument that has not been put forth.

I neither agreed nor disagreed with the statement that saying God can and does lie is slanderous (again, because as a lawyer, I know slander requires intent, and I have no way of knowing your intent in saying these words). Further, I am under no obligation to agree or disagree or even address the statement as I did not make it and was not asked to comment. I was only commenting on the assertion that I had made personal insults or attacks. I have not, and silence in the face of another’s comment cannot be taken as implied agreement with that comment.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

God was testing Abrahams love for him, Why cannot you have a civil conversation with me instead of attacking me with blasphemous attacks. I do not slander the lord simply because I disagree with your interpretation of scripture. How dare you levy that accusation against me!

I am not attacking you. However, you are in error , and slandering the Lord , when you use the word ’ lying’

And that, my friend, is the work of satan. Fight the attempt at misquoting God’s word

Did you work out where you are in error?

Its pretty easy, it is in God’s request to Abraham.

Read the passage and show me which word/sentence/ paragraph is a lie.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

You and roseacross did.
Yes you did, here is proof.

That post was to PJM.

And yes , anyone degrading the Holiness of God is slandering.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

I am not attacking you. However, you are in error , and slandering the Lord , when you use the word ’ lying’

And that, my friend, is the work of satan. Fight the attempt at misquoting God’s word

Did you work out where you are in error?

Its pretty easy, it is in God’s request to Abraham.

Read the passage and show me which word/sentence/ paragraph is a lie.

I have done so multiple times, please read my responses more clearly honey. While you seem intent on being “God”, I have much more important matters to attend to my dear. I cannot have a conversation with someone accusing me of Satan’s work and slander against my friend. Have a nice week.

 

[PJM]

Thankyou , + 1


To PJM why are you scandalising readers by suggesting such a thing?

Why are you slandering the Lord your God?

God bless you and may the wonderful and glorious Holy Spirit gift you strengthening faith.

And, with respect, are you yet in a position to publish books on Catholicism, while questions like this occupy you?

There is already so much confusion and conflict out there.

OK

**WHAT “Such a thing?”

SORRY:blush: I’m on multiple STRINGS and have not the slighest idea off what has you so up set.

You share it & God willing, Ill explain it a bit better for you

God Bless you**

Patick