A question for some non-catholic,,,The Catholic Church Baptizes infants.

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If you can’t remember being an infant then how do you know you had faith.
It doesn’t matter whether I know I had faith. I also don’t remember having faith last night for about seven hours when I was sleeping. Did my faith cease to exist at that point? If God knows I have faith due to His action of granting faith, then that’s all that matters.
 
I didn’t say from the Bible any infant anywhere. So your saying that God will not allow a child/infant into heaven if they don’t have faith.
So, let me understand your position, then, working through the debates. Evidence was provided to you that at least one infant in Scripture had faith - John the Baptizer. For this, you ignore it and then demand that a second infant with faith be brought forth, or you won’t accept it… Yet Scripture over and over again says without the gift of faith, it’s impossible to be united to Christ and receive justification, and NO WHERE says it’s possible to enter heaven without having been regenerated by the Spirit; yet you’re willing to accept that someone without faith can go to heaven?
What kind of God do you think he is. He is a God of mercy and if they are uncapable of knowing faith then his mercy takes over.
A just God, who MUST punish sin. He cannot overlook sin because of arbitrary issues such as mental ability, or infancy. His justice requires that those in Adam be punished for their sinfulness. His mercy is found only in Christ. If not having faith is being outside of Christ, that applies to infants and the disabled, as they do not possess Christ’s imputed righteousness. Are they sinners, rev? If yes, then they must receive the verdict that is due sinners; which is why we baptize them. If they are not sinners, then why do they die?
I disagree with you on the reguardless of their mental state. If they don’t have the mental ability to understand faith then they can’t have faith in something they would not understand.
Salvation by intelligence quotient. Stop placing your reason in a magisterial role over the fuctions of the Holy Spirit.
Did Jeremiah leap in his mothers womb like John did? I never said the Holy Spirit didn’t dwell in infant’s. I said they can’t have faith because they don’t know what it is.
No one knows what faith is, rev. It is not some hidden potential within man that is unlocked when he or she reaches some arbitary intelligence marker. It is sovereignly dispensed by the Holy Spirit, through Christ in Word and Sacrament; and it is not dependent upon any condition within man.
 
Also, remember that those who repented and baptised (those mentioned in the bible) had heard the word and believed, yet they mentioned all of these people’s household being baptised. Not the whole of these people’s households had heard the word of Christ yet but they were baptised all the same. The grace was given these “unbelievers” so that they could grow in faith if they chose to.

Another point, back then you have to remember that there wasn’t much in the form of birth control, and often whole extended families lived together, reason would tell you that there must have been at least 1 or 2 very young ones in that “Household”. Common sense!
Where does it say that not all believed in the households?

Acts 16:
30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
32 Then they** spoke the word of the Lord to **him and to all who were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.​

The implications was that all believed.​

Why does reason tell me there had to be infants in the household? Actually reason tells me differently: According to a catholic here on CAF, 5 households are mentioned in the Bible to have gotten baptized. The odds are good that of all those that were baptized (many thousands) there were 5 households that the youngest were old enough to hear the Gospel and respond correctly such that they were baptized. Now if the Bible said hundreds of households all got baptized, the odds would be in your favor.
 
It cracks me up when anti-Catholics who try to prove Sola Scriptura make the challenge:
Show me a tradition that isn’t explicitly in Scripture.
Then, when we show you guys things like infant baptism, you reject it.

Isn’t it time you face the fact that you are simply anti-Catholic and not Pro-Adult Baptism?

You have not proven infant baptism from the Bible.​

Your anti-catholic stuff is getting to the point where it sounds like a cry baby. I’m sure you are better than that. Could you please stop the foolishness. Thank you.
 
It doesn’t matter whether I know I had faith. I also don’t remember having faith last night for about seven hours when I was sleeping. Did my faith cease to exist at that point? If God knows I have faith due to His action of granting faith, then that’s all that matters.
Yes it does matter if you knew you had faith. Faith is a belief, trust and a infant can’t believe because the don’t know what it is. You know what faith is even while sleeping because once you know what faith is its always active. Faith is a commitment of both mind and heart. A infant is not capable of commitment. Where does it say that God granted faith?
 
Yes it does matter if you knew you had faith. Faith is a belief, trust and a infant can’t believe because the don’t know what it is.
Where does Scripture state this?
You know what faith is even while sleeping because once you know what faith is its always active. Faith is a commitment of both mind and heart. A infant is not capable of commitment. Where does it say that God granted faith?
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” - John 6:65

looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith - Heb. 12:2

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake - Phil. 1:29

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God - Eph. 2:8
 
So, let me understand your position, then, working through the debates. Evidence was provided to you that at least one infant in Scripture had faith - John the Baptizer. For this, you ignore it and then demand that a second infant with faith be brought forth, or you won’t accept it… Yet Scripture over and over again says without the gift of faith, it’s impossible to be united to Christ and receive justification, and NO WHERE says it’s possible to enter heaven without having been regenerated by the Spirit; yet you’re willing to accept that someone without faith can go to heaven?

I did not say that John while in the womb did not have faith, as a matter of fact I agreed with that if you would re-read my post on that. Now one special person does not mean that all have faith as infants. Don’t dodge the question can you or can you not give me another example of a infant having faith? Answer this, do you think God will not allow someone with a mental disability or a infant that is incapable of having faith be damned? Do you think that low of God that you would say that he would do this to someone like that? I don’t believe our God is that kind of God.

A just God, who MUST punish sin. He cannot overlook sin because of arbitrary issues such as mental ability, or infancy. His justice requires that those in Adam be punished for their sinfulness. His mercy is found only in Christ. If not having faith is being outside of Christ, that applies to infants and the disabled, as they do not possess Christ’s imputed righteousness. Are they sinners, rev? If yes, then they must receive the verdict that is due sinners; which is why we baptize them. If they are not sinners, then why do they die?

Once again do you think that low of God that he would damn them because of their diability? How sad to think that way. :bighanky:

Salvation by intelligence quotient. Stop placing your reason in a magisterial role over the fuctions of the Holy Spirit.

I’m not you are to blind to see.

No one knows what faith is, rev. It is not some hidden potential within man that is unlocked when he or she reaches some arbitary intelligence marker. It is sovereignly dispensed by the Holy Spirit, through Christ in Word and Sacrament; and it is not dependent upon any condition within man.

If as you say “No one knows what faith is, rev.” Then how in the very next line you say what faith is. 🤷
 
Where does Scripture state this?

Not everything is in Scripture. Isn’t that what you have been taught.

And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” - John 6:65

looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith - Heb. 12:2

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake - Phil. 1:29

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God - Eph. 2:8
I don’t see where it says faith is granted by God.
 
If as you say “No one knows what faith is, rev.” Then how in the very next line you say what faith is. 🤷

I said how it is given, not what it is.
I did not say that John while in the womb did not have faith, as a matter of fact I agreed with that if you would re-read my post on that. Now one special person does not mean that all have faith as infants. Don’t dodge the question can you or can you not give me another example of a infant having faith? Answer this, do you think God will not allow someone with a mental disability or a infant that is incapable of having faith be damned? Do you think that low of God that you would say that he would do this to someone like that? I don’t believe our God is that kind of God.
 
I don’t see where it says faith is granted by God.
What do you think John 6:65 is saying, rev? What is Ephesians 2:8 saying? it is a GIFT of God. How else do you define being granted something? If it is not granted by God, then you have turned faith into a work.
 
I said how it is given, not what it is.
Read your second line of that paragraph where you say, “It is…”

What would be the reasons that God would not condemn an infant who does not have faith, rev? You keep insisting one being provided more than one infant with faith, yet you haven’t provided a single example of someone being saved outside of faith. Is God not going to condemn infants because we think they shouldn’t be, or because they’re cute, or because we see them as innocent? God doesn’t see them as innocent, rev. His standards are a bit higher than yours. Here is how God sees every human, regardless of their age, physical, or mental condition, if they are separated from Christ: “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.”
Sorry you feel that way about God that he has no mercy. I’ll be praying for you.

How did God view the infant sinners among the firstborn of the Egyptians? How did God view the children of the Canaanites? How did God view Esau when he was still in the womb?
Lets see, these are before the New Covenant, it is in the OT and before Jesus came to save us. We are talking NT not OT.

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. - Ps. 51:5

Did I say the were without sin? No I did not.

Who said He will damn them because of their disability? He will condemn them because they are sinners. Unless you believe that Christ was not the only sinless human ever to walk the earth. He will not give them a free pass over His judgment because of any reason OTHER than the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, received through faith.
You are saying that. How is he going to condemn them? If according to you they will have not free pass then where will they go?
 
What do you think John 6:65 is saying, rev? What is Ephesians 2:8 saying? it is a GIFT of God. How else do you define being granted something? If it is not granted by God, then you have turned faith into a work.
John 6:65 says, “…That is what I meant when I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father brings them to me.” Where do you see faith is a gift from God in this?

Ephesians 2:8 says, “God saved you by is special favor when you believed, And you can’t take credit for this, it is a gift from God.” I don’t see where faith is a gift from here, it says you are saved by his special favor but nothing about faith.
 
You are saying that. How is he going to condemn them? If according to you they will have not free pass then where will they go?
He is going to condemn them the same way and for the same reasons He condemns anyone else. Sin.
Sorry you feel that way about God that he has no mercy. I’ll be praying for you.
His mercy is only found in Christ. Otherwise, we are subject to the Law, which every man, woman, and child, has transgressed.
Lets see, these are before the New Covenant, it is in the OT and before Jesus came to save us. We are talking NT not OT.
So the God of the Old Testament is not the same as the God of the New Testament? Funny, I thought He was the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Did I say the were without sin? No I did not.
Then why do you think infants will not be condemned for their sin, if they cannot have faith in Christ?
 
John 6:65 says, “…That is what I meant when I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father brings them to me.” Where do you see faith is a gift from God in this?
What is coming to Christ, rev?
Ephesians 2:8 says, “God saved you by is special favor when you believed, And you can’t take credit for this, it is a gift from God.” I don’t see where faith is a gift from here, it says you are saved by his special favor but nothing about faith.
What translation is that, rev? It says the same thing but the wording is completely taking liberty with the Greek. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and **that not **of yourselves, it is the **gift **of God.
 
Where does it say that not all believed in the households?

Acts 16:
30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
32 Then they** spoke the word of the Lord to **him and to all who were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.​

The implications was that all believed.​

Why does reason tell me there had to be infants in the household? Actually reason tells me differently: According to a catholic here on CAF, 5 households are mentioned in the Bible to have gotten baptized. The odds are good that of all those that were baptized (many thousands) there were 5 households that the youngest were old enough to hear the Gospel and respond correctly such that they were baptized. Now if the Bible said hundreds of households all got baptized, the odds would be in your favor.
So tell me were the jewish babies that were circumcised agreeing to the covenant of God? Oh my goodness, they should have waited until the age of reason for these children to agree to a covenant because according to you the covenant doesn’t apply unless people know what they’re getting into. The jews had no problem entering their babies into a covenant, why would the converted jews have a problem with entering their babies into the new covenant?

What you are doing is playing mind games with yourself, you’re not using common sense and applying it to the times. That’s the trouble with relying on the bible alone, everything has to be written down word for word so that it could be understood.

On top of everything else, the early church fathers are not even studied! Why do you even deny history?

Irenaeus: For he came to save all by means of himself – all, I say, who by him are born again to God – infants, children, adolescents, young men, and old men. (Against Heresies II.22.4)

Hippolytus:* And they shall baptize the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family.* And next they shall baptism the grown men; and last the women. (Apostolic Tradition 21.3-5)

Origen: I take this occasion to discuss something which our brothers often inquire about. Infants are baptized for the remission of sins. Of what kinds? Or when did they sin? But since “No one is exempt from stain,” one removes the stain by the mystery of baptism. For this reason infants are baptized. For “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Homily on Luke 14:5).
[After quoting Psalm 51:5 and Job 14:4] These verses may be adduced when it is asked why, since the baptism of the church is given for the remission of sins, baptism according to the practice of the church is given even to infants; since indeed if there is in infants nothing which ought to pertain to forgiveness and mercy, the grace of baptism would be superfluous. (Homily on Leviticus 8:3).
[After quoting Leviticus 12:8 and Psalm 51:5] For this also the church had a tradition from the apostles, to give baptism even to infants. For they to whom the secrets of the divine mysteries were given knew that there is in all persons the natural stains of sin which must be washed away by the water and the Spirit. On account of these stains the body itself is called the body of sin. (Commentary on Romans 5:9)

Cyprian: In respect of the case of infants, which you say ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after birth, and that the law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think that one who is just born should not be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day, we all thought very differently in our council. For in this course which you thought was to be taken, no one agreed; but we all rather judge that the mercy and grace of God is not to be refused to any one born of man… Spiritual circumcision ought not to be hindered by carnal circumcision… we ought to shrink from hindering an infant, who, being lately born, has not sinned, except in that, being born after the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of the ancient death at its earliest birth, who approaches the more easily on this very account to the reception of the forgiveness of sins - that to him are remitted, not his own sins, but the sins of another" (Letter 58 to Fidus).

Augustine: For from the infant newly born to the old man bent with age, as there is none shut out from baptism, so there is none who in baptism does not die to sin. (Enchiridion; ch. 43)

Do you not remember that Jesus started the new COVENANT ? That means that instead of circumcision, we were now entered into the covenant through baptism.
 
He is going to condemn them the same way and for the same reasons He condemns anyone else. Sin.
Where will they go? You failed to answer that part.

His mercy is only found in Christ. Otherwise, we are subject to the Law, which every man, woman, and child, has transgressed.
So you are saying that God can’t have mercy if he wants too. 🤷

So the God of the Old Testament is not the same as the God of the New Testament? Funny, I thought He was the same yesterday, today, and forever.
It is a New Covenant. Do you know what that means?

Then why do you think infants will not be condemned for their sin, if they cannot have faith in Christ?
 
He will not have mercy on them because they do not have faith in Christ, rev. Again, provide a single text of Scripture that says God will have mercy on unbelievers. The rest is your appeal to sentimental emotions.
 
Where will they go? You failed to answer that part.
Hell.
So you are saying that God can’t have mercy if he wants too.
No, He can’t. Can a courtroom judge have mercy on a murderer and set him free “because he wants to?” What would you call a judge who let a killer go free, even though he was convicted? God is a judge who will by no means aquit the guilty.
It is a New Covenant. Do you know what that means?
His character of justice still remains, rev. He is still perfectly holy, just, and righteous. The New Covenant doesn’t “soften” His justice against sinners.
 
First of all I am not anti-Catholic so lets get that straight right now. The answer about if there were infants in the household is you don’t know its possible that there were and its possible that there weren’t. Just say you don’t know there is no shame in that.
Rev If you don’t agree with some you are anti Catholic and much worse like me. But I consider it a blessing Love ya Rev
 
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