A question for some non-catholic,,,The Catholic Church Baptizes infants.

[rev_kevin]

My point w/ the “instruction manuel” comment, my smart aallecness aside, was that I don’t believe that the Bible is a “do it yourself” manual; neither does it read like one IMO.

It is not unreasonable to believe that the writer of Hebrews would have been aware that the Apostles baptised infants (if it wasn’t written by an Apostle.)

So the Bible don’t give you instructions on who to live a life with God? It don’t instruct you with the 10 commandments? It don’t instruct you on how to treat your neighbor?

 

[rev_kevin]

So, you can’t answer my challenge either.
This is VERY telling of the Protestant posters on this thread.
Not ONE of you has been able to answer the challenge.

In your origional post did you use the word “you” yes or no?
This is very telling on how you change your wording when we answered your question. You never used the word you.

 

[elvisman]

We are not talking about the Jewish faith. Where in the bible does it say that parents can make these decissions for them? Can a infant make those decissions?
What does your last statement have to do with infant baptism?

You don’t see any parallels from the OT to the NT?
**How can you even claim to be able to interpret Scripture if you can’t identify OT Types with NT fulfillments? **You can’t see the meaning of my last comment about NT Fulfillments versus OT types?

You are a walking, talking, living, breathing contradiction.

 

[elvisman]

In your origional post did you use the word “you” yes or no?

What are you talking about?
Please explain.

 

[rev_kevin]

**You don’t see any **parallels from the OT to the NT?
How can you even claim to be able to interpret Scripture if you can’t identify OT Types with NT fulfillments? You can’t see the meaning of my last comment about NT Fulfillments versus OT types?

You are a walking, talking, living, breathing contradiction.

Tell me what does the last comment have to do with infant baptism? You are good at critizing others but you won’t answer a direct question.

 

[elvisman]

Tell me what does the last comment have to do with infant baptism? You are good at critizing others but you won’t answer a direct question.

**Kevin - you REALLY need to read the posts and stop shooting from the hip.

I was answering your charge that infants cannot make decisions to repent or believe. I was illustrating to you that infants in the OT couldn’t make a **covenant with God or ****make the decision to be circumcised or ****perform any of the rituals prescribed by the Mosaic Law. ****This is why their PARENTS did it for them **and raised them in their Jewish faith – just as the parents of the Catholic child do so on their behalf when it comes to Baptism.

My statement was that Baptism is the NT fulfillment of the OT type that was Circumcision. This isn’t brain surgery and it doesn’t take a PhD to read the Bible to find these things out.

 

[rev_kevin]

What are you talking about?
Please explain.

Post 241 "Can you please give me a clear and comprehensive response to what the Fathers taught about infant baptism and how they not only supported it but practiced it?

Then in
Post 281 you say, "Why do “you” think about what they taught and practiced about infant baptism?
You didn’t ask us what we think until we answered your origional question and said then you said we didn’t answer it and you changed it to Why do you…

 

[elvisman]

Post 241 "Can you please give me a clear and comprehensive response to what the Fathers taught about infant baptism and how they not only supported it but practiced it?

Then in
Post 281 you say, "Why do “you” think about what they taught and practiced about infant baptism?
You didn’t ask us what we think until we answered your origional question and said then you said we didn’t answer it and you changed it to Why do you…

So, now you’re playing semantic games and that is what is making you angry?

If you don’t like the way I worded it the second time - then go by my first challenge.
Either way - you have failed - you ALL have - to answer it.

 

[rev_kevin]

**Kevin - you *REALLY ***need to read the posts and stop shooting from the hip.

**I was answering your **charge that infants cannot make decisions to repent or believe. I was illustrating to you that infants in the OT couldn’t make a **covenant with God or ****make the decision to be circumcised or ****perform any of the rituals prescribed by the Mosaic Law. **This is why their PARENTS did it for them and raised them in their Jewish faith – just as the parents of the Catholic child do so on their behalf when it comes to Baptism.

My statement was that Baptism is the NT fulfillment of the OT type that was Circumcision. This isn’t brain surgery and it doesn’t take a PhD to read the Bible to find these things out.

Not shooting from the him. Can a infant repent or believe? yes or no?
I don’t ask you about the parents making the decission for the infant. It don’t take a brain surgen to answer as simple yes or no question.
You never answered the other question you gave me a bunch of criticizm, like you normally do. So once again what does your last statement have to do with infant baptism? Not a hard question if you know the answer then give it, but your putting down is really getting old. Just answer the questions.

 

[elvisman]

Not shooting from the him. Can a infant repent or believe? yes or no?
I don’t ask you about the parents making the decission for the infant. It don’t take a brain surgen to answer as simple yes or no question.
You never answered the other question you gave me a bunch of criticizm, like you normally do. So once again what does your last statement have to do with infant baptism? Not a hard question if you know the answer then give it, but your putting down is really getting old. Just answer the questions.

I will be happy to answer your question as soon as you answer mine.
I will give you a clear and concise answer.

 

[rev_kevin]

So, now you’re playing semantic games and that is what is making you angry?

If you don’t like the way I worded it the second time - then go by my first challenge.
Either way - you have failed - you ALL have - to answer it.

I’m not angry and not playing semantic games. These were your words. You changed what you wanted.
Irenaeus- Heresies 2:22:4
Hippolytus- The apostolic tradition 21:16
Origen- Homilies of Leviticus 8:3 Commentaries on Romans 5:9
Cyprian of Carthage- Letters 64:2 ibid 64:5
Gregory of Nazianz- Oration onHoly Baptism 40:7 ibid 40:28
John Chrysostom- Baptismal catecheses in augustine, against Julian 1:6:21
Augustine- On baptism, against the donatists 4:24:31 The literal interperetation of Genesis 10:23:39 Letters 166:8:23 Forgiveness and the just deserts of sin and the baptism of infants 1:9:10, 1:24:34, 2:27:43
Council of carthageV Canon 7
Council of mileum II Canon 3

 

[elvisman]

I’m not angry and not playing semantic games. These were your words. You changed what you wanted.
Irenaeus- Heresies 2:22:4
Hippolytus- The apostolic tradition 21:16
Origen- Homilies of Leviticus 8:3 Commentaries on Romans 5:9
Cyprian of Carthage- Letters 64:2 ibid 64:5
Gregory of Nazianz- Oration onHoly Baptism 40:7 ibid 40:28
John Chrysostom- Baptismal catecheses in augustine, against Julian 1:6:21
Augustine- On baptism, against the donatists 4:24:31 The literal interperetation of Genesis 10:23:39 Letters 166:8:23 Forgiveness and the just deserts of sin and the baptism of infants 1:9:10, 1:24:34, 2:27:43
Council of carthageV Canon 7
Council of mileum II Canon 3

Uhhhh . . . now, how about answering the challenge:
Can you please give me a clear and comprehensive response to what the Fathers taught about infant Baptism and how they not only supported it but practiced it?

I issue this challenge to ALL Protestants who deny infant Baptism.**

 

[rev_kevin]

Uhhhh . . . now, how about answering the challenge:
Can you please give me a clear and comprehensive response to what the Fathers taught about infant Baptism and how they not only supported* it but practiced it?*

I issue this challenge to ALL Protestants who deny infant Baptism.

See page 1 of the Catholic answers on “Early Teachings on Infant Baptism.”

 

[adrift]

Do you mean Peter (see highlighted above)?

How do babies choose to remit their sins?

We disagree that babies receive the Holy Spirit.

I believe in original sin and that Jesus loves the little children so much they don’t need to be baptized until they can choose for themselves that they have sinned and want to repent.

When Jesus was speaking with Nicodemus, where did He say that repentance was a prerequisite? Where does Jesus say you must be baptizes but only if you are old enough? Jesus said in order to enter into heaven you must be baptizes. Where does He say but if you are a child you don’t need to be?

 

[adrift]

See page 1 of the Catholic answers on “Early Teachings on Infant Baptism.”

A link

Can a infant repent or believe? yes or no?

This question is not germane to baptizing.

Jesus clearly stated unless you are baptized you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. The question then is who can be baptized? Since God has demanded all be baptizes than the obvious answer is all can be baptizes. Jesus came to fulfill. Baptism is the fulfillment of circumcision.

We see baptism differently. We understand it differently. We talk pass each other because of that fundamental difference in understanding. If Baptism was only a sign of repentance than you would be right. But it is not. It is the entrance like circumcision into the family of God. .It so alters who we are that it forever leaves and indelible mark upon us.

 

[adrift]

See page 1 of the Catholic answers on “Early Teachings on Infant Baptism.”

from that article

Consider, too, that Fathers raised in Christian homes (such as Irenaeus) would hardly have upheld infant baptism as apostolic if their own baptisms had been deferred until the age of reason.

 

[rev_kevin]

A link

This question is not germane to baptizing.

Jesus clearly stated unless you are baptized you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. The question then is who can be baptized? Since God has demanded all be baptizes than the obvious answer is all can be baptizes. Jesus came to fulfill. Baptism is the fulfillment of circumcision.

We see baptism differently. We understand it differently. We talk pass each other because of that fundamental difference in understanding. If Baptism was only a sign of repentance than you would be right. But it is not. It is the entrance like circumcision into the family of God. .It so alters who we are that it forever leaves and indelible mark upon us.

www.catholic.com/library Early Teachings of Infant Baptism

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The Bible is a title, It is not mentioned in the Bible because at that time there was no Bible.

Not true the bible in Jesus time was called either scripture.
John 5:39 (King James Version)
39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

or the law and the prophets

Luke 24:44 (King James Version)
44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

 

[Bill_Pick]

I have no clue what your church father taught about infant baptism except what you and other have said. I know what the Bible teaches and there in NO evidence it teaches infant baptism; there’s tons of logical reasons to believe infants were not baptized.

DoKimas, Did you answer the chellenge,I may have missed it,can you post it again

 

[Bill_Pick]

Well yeah, as a male I wouldn’t go get “sacramentally circumcised” in a jewish synagogue if I didn’t believe. But jews everyday go to have their babies circumcised by the faith of their parents. Christians go into churches to get their babies baptised on the faith of the parents.

The “type” of baptism in the Old Testament was circumcision, which made a man a Jew,
Gen 17:10-14.
Circumcision had to be done early in life, on the eighth day of birth.
“He that is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male throughout your generations…”
Gen 17:12
Eight days old and every male, certainly does include infants, does it not?
I must ask: Since circumcision of infants was so important for the GOD of the Old Testament, why then are children excluded from Baptism by some in the New Testament?

“When his son Isaac was eight days old, Abraham circumcised him as GOD had commanded him.”
Gen 21:4

“And when eight days were fulfilled for his circumcision, his name was called Jesus…”
Luke 2:21

Where in the Old Testament does it say not to circumcise infants?

Once again, where does it say in the New Testament not to baptize infants?