A question for some Protestants who feel it is necessary to proselytize Catholics

[Tantum_ergo]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Mercy_Sunday

The devotion was celebrated unofficially in many places for some years. On April 30, 2000 (Divine Mercy Sunday of that year), Pope John Paul II canonized St. Faustina and designated the Sunday after Easter as the Second Sunday of Easter or the Sunday of the Divine Mercy (Dominica II Paschae seu de divina misericordia) in the General Roman Calendar, with effect from the following year. He also decreed a plenary indulgence associated with this devotion. Pope John Paul II said he felt a closeness to St. Faustina when he was writing Dives in misericordia [1]. He died during the vigil of the Divine Mercy Sunday 2005.

I read the same article, sugar. ‘Some years’ before 2000. That’s why I said that if you say you attended them because your church was celebrating them way back in the 1980s (late) because otherwise since you left the church no later than June of 1991 in order to be '18 plus years out of the Church" and in order to attend ‘many’ i.e. more than one, you’d have to attend in 1991, 1990, 1989 (at the very LEAST), and 1989 is 11 years ‘before’ 2000 and 4 years before St. Faustina’s beatification. . .

It is STILL a pity that if you did attend them you did not understand them.

 

[eucharisteo]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Mercy_Sunday

The devotion was celebrated unofficially in many places for some years. On April 30, 2000 (Divine Mercy Sunday of that year), Pope John Paul II canonized St. Faustina and designated the Sunday after Easter as the Second Sunday of Easter or the Sunday of the Divine Mercy (Dominica II Paschae seu de divina misericordia) in the General Roman Calendar, with effect from the following year. He also decreed a plenary indulgence associated with this devotion. Pope John Paul II said he felt a closeness to St. Faustina when he was writing Dives in misericordia [1]. He died during the vigil of the Divine Mercy Sunday 2005.

tantum ergo,
Hisalone is right on this [but maybe I missed something]. I have a Divine Mercy Card that dates back to the 50’s, though unofficial, many Catholics around the world embraced it. Our pastor also participated in Divine Mercy way back before it was embraced entirely by the Church. But I’m unclear whether or not he actually participated in a group or especially in a parish church. I’ll send him an email and ask him.

What’s interesting to me it the fact the 3 great people were either born or lived within a 50 click radius of each other. Two have been canonized as Saints and one is probably well on his way. Faustina, and JPII are the 2 most famous, but one was a Franciscan Friar, who’s name escapes me at the moment [age induced or taking care of my 5 year old listening to cartoons in the background while I neglect her ], that gave his life in exchange for a Jewish man who had a family as a prisoner of NAZI Germany. Someone please, what’s the name. I can’t seem to recall at the moment.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

tantum ergo,
Hisalone is right on this. I have a Divine Mercy Card that dates back to the 50’s, though unofficial, many Catholics around the world embraced it. Our pastor also participated in Divine Mercy way back before it was embraced entirely by the Church. What’s interesting to me it the fact the 3 great people were either born or lived within a 50 click radius of each other. Two have been canonized as Saints and one is probably well on his way. Faustina, and JPII are the 2 most famous, but one was a Franciscan Friar, who’s name escapes me at the moment [age induced or taking care of my 5 year old listening to cartoons in the background while I neglect her ], that gave his life in exchange for a Jewish man who had a family as a prisoner of NAZI Germany. Someone please, what’s the name. I can’t seem to recall at the moment.

Oh, I agreed that Hisalone may have been at services before they were official. I’m glad he clarified. I happen to have lived in a diocese where Divine Mercy was pretty well unknown prior to 2000. Probably more did not know about it than actually did, but undoubtedly where it was known it was loved.

No, I’m sad that Hisalone may have participated in these devotions but obviously never understood them at all.

 

[eucharisteo]

Oh, I agreed that Hisalone may have been at services before they were official. I’m glad he clarified. I happen to have lived in a diocese where Divine Mercy was pretty well unknown prior to 2000. Probably more did not know about it than actually did, but undoubtedly where it was known it was loved.

No, I’m sad that Hisalone may have participated in these devotions but obviously never understood them at all.

I’m not sure what he doesn’t understand about God’s infinite divine mercy. I must have missed something.

I reformatted my original post. But the content is not really different.

My guess you were up in PA or that part of the world if in the U.S. That’s where our Pastor is from. I left the Church in 1989 and never heard of Divine Mercy or at least don’t remember it. I had joined the Army 4 years prior and was drifting through life hurt for about 5 years after I left the seminary. I’m one of those clergy victims that left and came back home. This time I intend to be a catalyst for evangelicalism within the ranks of Catholics [hopefully as a deacon one day], teach them what I was never taught. I left at the age of 28 and thought I knew the teachings of the Church back then. That’s why I know without a doubt that Hisalone does not know or understand what he was supposed to have learned. It’s most likely not his own fault. But if he doesn’t meet God half way how is he ever going to learn? Growing in the Lord can be very painful. It is easier to say I know the truth so I don’t have to do anything than to actually be ready to change as God deepens our love for Him.

It took a lot to drop my anti-Catholic thinking even after I came back home to the Catholic Church. It was very difficult to swallow some of these beliefs that go all the way back to the beginning. The limitation given to Christians by finite pages in scripture makes is convenient and the sin we don’t understand justified by the fact that we can lean on “it isn’t in the bible” as our reason for continuing it. Yet all of us at one point in time did not realize that the Jews also have a Sacred Tradition. One of the convinces to me about contraception is a sin was not just intuition, but the fact that for the Jews it is also sinful.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

So what is the truth you have come to?
What is the heresy of yesterday? Manichaeism, Arianism, many others. Many of them taught what you preach. Yesterday’s truth is the truth of the Catholic Church. Yesterday’s heresy is the five sola’s (to a point), and disregard for Sacred Tradition.
As for CS Lewis --been there done that. Have U? Absolutely. Still doing it in fact.
Who was John addressing in 1 John 27? From what I understand the epsiopos and presbyters of the Church. Priests and Bishops.
I have not forgoten the promises to Cephas or any of the apostles.
All of them are a far cry from “Pope” lol, read up on what it means to be given the keys to the kingdom, what it means to be given the authority to forgive or withhold sins, and what it means to be the Rock upon which Christ shall build his [earthly] Kingdom

I gave an honest answer to the OP.
I gave an honest answer when I said Im at CAF to defend my beliefs from false allegations made by Catholics.
I am not here at CAF to evangelize Catholics. I do that in my daily walk.
You evangelize Catholics in your daily walk? Interesting that that is part of your daily life.

Why would you say that?
How many Protestants are familiar with Lecitio Divina and spell it right? ← Definition of Irony
How many are familiar with first friday and first saturday devotions?
How many are familiar with Sister Faustina and Divine Mercy?
How many Protestants have read Thomas Merton?

It has been 18+ since I was a practicing Catholic but I know these things because** I LIVED them.**If I could say one thing on this board that Catholics would hear it would be this.

Catholics put aside all your other devotions and practice Lecitio Divina and Contempletive prayer.

I will if you will. for you that means no more Worship services, no more praise music, no more listening to any preacher, etc. Actually, I take that back, I wont give up my devotions for the entire world.

Kathleen

Im not here at CAF to evangelize. Yeah, you do that in your daily walk
Do you get that.
Im here to defend my faith from false allegations.
Ok.
Do I think Im evangelizing Kathleen Gee?
No Im not trying to evangelize Kathleen Gee.

And yet, every word you write sounds like you are attempting, albeit in vain, to evangelize.

Nobody is attacking you on this forum, noone is attacking your faith. With a faith as vacuous as “Non-denominational Christian” it is like trying to fight the wind. And “non-denom”'s in general are as unpredictable as the wind, with ever changing doctrine, ever changing fundamental truths, and adherence to nothing. Completely unlike the example set by Christ

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[Dokimas]

Yup! Boring and old hearing 40,000 different opinions…:yawn:

I’d love it if you’d share those 40,000 different opinions. I won’t hold my breath but I’ll wait.

I suppose the best argument against non-catholic Christians is to mention 40,000. That being most likely true, I understand why you keep bringing it up. Well played.

 

[Metamorphoo]

No, the Orthodox were never labeled as heretics, nor were the Eastern Rites. The documents are specifically directed toward Roman Catholics who were in danger of abandoning the faith to embrace heretical teachings.

The reason no one can get to heaven outside the Church is because there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved but that of Christ. He only has One Body, and all those who are joined to Him as Head are members of the One Body.

The documents were not addressed to Catholics (or Orthodox) but to Protestants, and those in danger of falling into Protestant heresies

Your statement that all the bulls I mentioned were directed to Protestants is untrue. The dates of a number of the bulls (Unam Sanctum, for example) pre-dated the Protestant Reformation. The historical background behind the Boniface VIII’s bull was nothing more or less than a power struggle between himself and the king of France. It had nothing to do with heretical teachings.

And I never said that the Catholic Church labeled the Orthodox as heretics. They were–and continue to be–considered schismatics. My previous post included both terms to cover both types of groups. Let me requote what I stated previously in a post:

Pope Eugene IV–from “Cantate Domino”–“It [the Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics ***and schismatics ***cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

This was written in 1441–after the Great Schism of 1054 and prior to the Protestant Reformation begun by Luther in 1517. Note that the pope states that heretic and schismatics suffer the same punishment: damnation. Since Eastern Orthodox are regarded as schismatics by the RCC, do not the Eastern Orthodox suffer the fate described in Eugene IV’s bull?

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I’d love it if you’d share those 40,000 different opinions. I won’t hold my breath but I’ll wait.

I suppose the best argument against non-catholic Christians is to mention 40,000. That being most likely true, I understand why you keep bringing it up. Well played.

lol, Personally, I hate that “40,000” thing. It seems to just keep going up and up. 5 years ago it was 20k, now its 40k? Wow, thats a lot of new churches in 5 years.

Personally, I think it is a good example of the chaos that can flow from sola scriptura’s mandatory private interpretation doctrine, but I wish people would stop bringing it up. I does nothing to strengthen an argument since it is so old and played out. Its like when non catholics bring up their displeasure with Marian doctrine… We already know you dont like it, so state WHY instead of “Look how evil it is”.

But thas just one man’s opinion.

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[KathleenGee]

I have gone through the thread on how someone is debating on whether or not to join the Roman Catholic Church vs the Orthodox Church. I was surprised to read that the Orthodox do not accept our sacraments in good faith that we do theirs.

Very educational thread and vast in its coverage for just 29 pages or so.

 

[Dokimas]

Unfortunately, that sheds no light whatsoever on your beliefs. :sad_yes:

If one wants to know what a Catholic believes, one can know exactly what the CC teaches.

However, sadly, saying one is nondenominational can mean tens of thousands of different things.

We don’t know what you believe regarding:
-Abortion - Against.
-Must your congregation attend weekly services or do you preach they don’t have to go to Church? Each believer stands or falls before his/her Judge. Romans 14. However Heb 10:25 is very important.
-Do you preach Baptism—in Jesus’ name only, or Trinitarian? The Bible uses both so God may not care which one is used. In a river? That’s a good place. Sprinkling? Can’t find it in the Bible but I’m sure it’s okay. Immersion? Seems that’s the way Jesus was baptized. Is it aSacrament or ordinance? I’m not into big words. Adult or infant? There’s far more Bible evidence for adult baptism. NO real evidence for infant. -Can men and women sit together during services?
-Do you preach Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help themselves?) Why one should ask if anyone believe is loving one’s neighbor as one’s self is beyond me. -Is there Church leadership, or no leadership? Yes to church leadership. The Bible teaches it.
-Do you believe in Death vs Soul Sleep?
-Will you marry a divorcee? I hope I never have to answer that in real life. However, it depends upon why the divorce.
-Is drinking alcohol allowed? ** I don’t touch the suff, myself. I see no good reason to do so.** -Can women wear pants? Must they wear head coverings or no head coverings? ** I don’t think the Bible directly answers that question. IMO, it’s cultural. Women should be modest, though (not hanging out of her clothes).**
-Do you preach the Health and wealth gospel? It’s not in the Bible. Jesus didn’t have a place to call His own.
-What about Hell, or no hell? ** I hope no one rejects Jesus and goes there. IMO, hell is what a person makes for themselves: the worse the person, the worse the self impossed suffering.** -What does your interpretation of the Bible say about Homosexuality?
-Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah Amongst others. Or Yaweh. -Is it permissible for women to teach Scripture? To women and children, IMO. -Is music played at your services? I hope so. David worshiped God through music.
-Do you believe in Once saved, always saved? Yes, unless you give it back.
-Do you profess to being ordained? ** I don’t understand the question. -What about Predestination?
-What about the Rapture? The Bible teaches it. Sola scriptura/private interpretation
-Do you celebrate the Lord’s Supper? ** Yes; and it’s quite a time of remembrance.** If so, do you use grape juice or wine? Grape juice; wouldn’t want a recovering alchoholic to stumble. Drink out of one cup or many little cups? Either way. Doesn’t seem the Bible makes a big deal out of that issue. -Must your congregants speak in Tongues? Not according to the Bible.
-What is original sin and its effects on humanity? ** It’s origin is Adam and it’s passed on to all humans except Jesus who was virgin born.** *
]*

How many of my answers are different from yours? I’ll bet theres NOT 40,000 different answers to each of the above questions. I’ll go so far as to say, I’ll bet there’s only a few different understanding on most of the above and some there really isn’t any differences at all.

 

[Dokimas]

continued…

-What’s a sin,** disobeying God what is not a sin**? And how does one know? The Bible and the Holy Spirit and fellow believers.
-When to celebrate the Lord’s Day? Sunday or Saturday? Sunday but Romans 14 pretty much says all days are alike.
-Women pastors–are they allowed? Not to pastor a man, according to Paul.[sign1]
It’s obscene how many different interpretations can be represented by the term “nondenominational”[/sign1]*
/I*

 

[Metamorphoo]

Can you cite a source for this, please?

You wanted to know a source for my statement: “There were groups (such as the Eastern Orthodox) who were not Roman Catholic at the time that a number of those documents were written. Those groups/individuals were labeled as heretics and/or schismatics by the RCC–and popes stated that such people could not go to heaven, i.e., were not Christian. That is the only way that you can say that there were ‘no non-Roman Catholic Christians’ when the documents were written.”

Here’s one that I’ve already posted twice on this thread, but will do so again: Pope Eugene IV–from “Cantate Domino”–“It [the Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews ***and heretics and schismatics ***cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

The RCC considers the Eastern Orthodox to be in schism. This bull, which was written in 1441 (several centuries after The Great Schism) states that schismatics cannot be saved. Period.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

[sign1]
It’s obscene how many different interpretations can be represented by the term “nondenominational”[/sign1]

Just a question, without trying to start a fight, what IS your current denomination?

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[KathleenGee]

The context of schism needs to be further defined here.

We can receive the sacraments at an Orthodox church with the permission of the pastor…

 

[PRmerger]

How many Protestants are familiar with -]Lecitio /-]Divina and spell it right?

Wow, do I find that ironic.

 

[mark_a]

I have gone through the thread on how someone is debating on whether or not to join the Roman Catholic Church vs the Orthodox Church. I was surprised to read that the Orthodox do not accept our sacraments in good faith that we do theirs.

Very educational thread and vast in its coverage for just 29 pages or so.

The Protestants should take lessons from the Orthodox on how to be mad at Catholics.

 

[mark_a]

The RCC considers the Eastern Orthodox to be in schism. This bull, which was written in 1441 (several centuries after The Great Schism) states that schismatics cannot be saved. Period.

From the Orthodox pov, can Catholics be saved?

 

[eucharisteo]

Wow, do I find that ironic.

I never poke fun at other people’s spelling. It can easily be thrown right back into your own face. Just a bit of precautionary advice.

 

[Dokimas]

You have misunderstood, Doki. Scripture says that all disobedience is sin. Could be and maybe it is you that misunderstands.

It is not wrong to fast in order to improve one’s spiritual life. ** Of course**. Fasting is not the same as condemning eating. Correct. It is refraining from eating certain things at certain times for spiritual enrichment. Agreed. Jesus told us not to let others know we are fasting. If everyone does it on the same day, everyone knows.

Those who participate in fasting according to whatever guidelines (the Eastern Rites are quite different than the Latin) do most certainly receive all the foods from which they have fasted with great joy and thanksgiving after the fast is complete. ** I’m sure that’s true but off topic.**

are you suggesting fasting is not biblical? What do you think? ** I am saying forced fast violated 1 Timothy 4**

I agree that comparing eating meat on Friday to adultery may not be the best analogy. The fasting guidelines are spiritual disciplines that change over time and culture. Adultery is one of the seven deadlies.

Disobedience to the authority appointed by Christ is sinful. And authority should NOT go against the Bible or, IMO, they should not be followed.

 

[Dokimas]

Guidelines for the solemn fast were designed by the authority appointed by Christ. Those who disregard or disobey this authority are out of order, as “he who hears you, hears me”.

The eating of meat on Friday was never considered a sin for everyone, only those to whom the discipline of fasting applied. Those who kick against the goads are missing the mark.

It is impossible to “force” anyone to fast. Fasting is a spiritual discipline in which one consecrates oneself to God by denying the appetites of the flesh. No one can be forced into devotional practices, because they are a matter of the heart.

Thanks for your opinion.