A question to the Christian

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From the CA Library:

IS Jesus God? Early Christian writers didn’t seem to have any doubts. Just look at what they wrote:

Ignatius of Antioch

"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God (*Epistle to the Ephesians *1 [A.D. 110]).

Ignatius of Antioch

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit (Epistle to the Ephesians 18:2).

Ignatius of Antioch

". . . to the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is (Epistle to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).

Aristides

“[Christians] are they who, above every people of the Earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit” (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).

Tatian

“We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man” (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).

Melito

“It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism; of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages” (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s, The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]).

Irenaeus

"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the Earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and Earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the Resurrection from the dead, and the bodily Ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to re-establish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on Earth and under the earth . . " (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 180]).

Irenaeus

“Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that** he is himself in his own right God and Lord** . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth” (Against Heresies 3:19:1).

Tertullian

“God alone is without sin. The only man who is without sin is Christ; for Christ is also God” (*The Soul *41:3 [A.D. 208]).

Tertullian

“The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born…” (The Flesh of Christ 5:6-7 [A.D. 208]).

More here:

catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9111frs.asp
 
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Muslim:
this is sort of like a followup of me and exoflares discussion last night…but its reverse now…

the rules are similar… please NO MUSLIMS respond to this thread…you can pm me ifyou got suggestions but PLEASE do NOT respond as it would just make the thread go off topic…

also, if you are ignorant and vulgar, please do NOT respond… this is for cest, inJesus, murtad and few others who know who they are… this is for open minded discussion and this has NOTHING to do with Islam…

my question is:

"What objective proof you have that Jesus is the son of God?"
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Hi Muslim,

Thanks for the question that prompted me to think about my faith once again. Yes, it is good to ask why it must be HE - Jesus be the Son of God. To me, I would like to view it from the witnesses’ angle.
  1. There were witnesses to testify that they heard a loud sound from the sky (God) that said, “He is my beloved Son, listen to him”, while Jesus was being baptized.
  2. Many witnesses testified that Jesus resurrected from death and infact He is the only one who did it in human history. A lot of people even talked and ate with Him during his last 40 days on earth. Moreover, Jesus acended to heaven in front of their very eyes.
Think about it:
  • I agreed that we cannot take bible as total historical / scientifical correct. However, indeed a lot of Church fathers and biblical teachers confirmed the two above incidents in their studies of the Holy Land.
  • If Jesus is not as real as the Son of God, could there be so many people in the early Church period who were willing to die for Him during prosecution.
Thank you.
 
This is probably very elementary to some of the other Catholic posters here but I was blessed to find out these things recently and I’ll share them with you.

Apparently there is a study of ancient literary works by historians which basically states that manuscripts are considered historically accurate based on these things:
  1. How short is the time lapse between when original manuscript was written and the earliest known copy of the work.
  2. How many of the early copies have been found.
There is a work “Herodotus” (I never heard of it before) that historians consider accurate. The time lapse until the first copy was made was 1300 years and there were 8 early copies found. The New Testament was considered completed in 100 AD and the first copy was 30 years later. By 310 AD there were 5000 Greek copies, 10,000 Latin copies and 9,300 other copies.
To me, as far as is humanly possible, it shows that the New Testament is not a work of fiction. There also were Roman and Jewish historians that had no connection with the New Testament who have written about Jesus in the time frame in which we believe he lived.

In the New Testament, Jesus’ teaching centered on himself. The other prophets pointed to God. Jesus pointed to himself.
John 6:35 “I am the bread of life.”
Code: 
John 8:12  "I am the light of the world."

John 11:25  "I am the resurrection and the life."

John 14:6   "I am the way and the truth and the life."

Luke 22:30  "My kingdom."

Matthew 11:28-29  "Come to me"

Mark 1:17  "Follow me"

Mark 14:61-62  Again the high priest asked him "Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?"  Jesus said "I am.

John 8:58  "......before Abraham was born, I am!"
It isn’t absolute proof but it is pretty convincing.
 
I don’t know what else I can add. I believe it because:
  1. He said so. And proved it by his miracles and actions.
  2. He did things only God can do.
  3. He rose from the dead.
  4. The witness of the Apostles and Fathers.
  5. The witness of the Scriptures.
  6. It is reasonable.
  7. And, of course, I have been given the gift of faith.
Lot’s of good reasons. And I see no reason to disbelieve him. But lot’s of reasons to NOT believe Muhammed.
 
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Muslim:
okay fine then… what objective ‘evidence’ you have?
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There are Over 300 Messianic Prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus.

My questoin to you is: What “objective ‘evidence’ you have” that the Koran is the inspired works of God and not the deranged writings of a mad man?
 
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dhgray:
My questoin to you is: What “objective ‘evidence’ you have” that the Koran is the inspired works of God and not the deranged writings of a mad man?
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Do you really think this sort of comment is helpful to dialogue, or is it meant to inflame passions?

As a Catholic, if someone were to make a similar comment about Jesus and the Apostles it would really set my back up to the point were I would consider the person making it desperate because he had no way to disprove my claim.

You do not have to accept what another believes, but you should be respectful in your disagreement. 1 Peter 3:15 tells us “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.”
 
Let me get a shot at this…

Muslim, this is what we believe.

We believe that God is one. We also believe that God is three persons…what?

I’ll try to break it down. From eternity to eternity God is Love. Love always gives. That is, True Love. The Father begetts the Son. The Son loves the Father. The Father loves the Son. The love between the two is so powerful it is the Third Person, the Holy Spirit. Three attributes…distinctions…personalities…forever exchanging love and producing love. That is why God created. Out of love. Our ability to procreate comes from this great mystery.
God the Son became a human being to reveal to us who God was because we’ve been so blinded by the effects of Adam’s sin. God the Son became a human being so that He could take onto Himself the punishment of sin due to us so that we wouldn’t have to. (That is, damnation). It was a Man who brought sin into the world and therefore it had to be a Man to get rid of it. No one was able to do that. And God chose to do it Himself while still meeting the matters of His decree regarding sin…He bacame a Human being. As a Human Being He suffered and died. As a Human Being He rose again. He united His Divinity with His Humanity so that our Humanity can share in His Divinity.
You are not your father except by nature. Dogs have little dogs (puppies). Spiders breed little spiders. Cats give birth to Cats. God gave His Son to be born as a man…yet He was God.
That is the greatest expression of Love that can ever be given by anyone, and especially God Himself, who is Love.
He brought us back Home to Him. To the all that God is.
I tried to break it down Muslim, but please understand that this was the greatest man who ever lived. He proclaimed Himself as the great I AM. If this were not true, then you cannot even call Him a prophet, for a true prophet does not lie. The only option He left open to us was that He was God in the Flesh. The Son of God. Call Him a liar, call Him a maniac, call Him the most decietful Devil that has ever existed, but don’t call Him a prophet and leave it at that, especially based on what He said about Himself.
 
"What objective proof you have that Jesus is the son of God?"

What proof do you have that he’s not?
 
Having said that . . .

I have just got home from work so am rather tired after working all night at a Care Centre, we had one patient after another needing our assistance all night. I’m tired so I may have to finish this when my brain is functioning clearer.

To Muslim. . . historically, I don’t believe there is any valid question that Jesus lived at the time the New Testament says He did. Even the Qu’ran accepts that. For a Muslim to deny that Jesus was an actual historical person, they would be questioning the authenticity of their sacred book. So that is a non-issue.

Your question is “What objective proof you have that Jesus is the son of God?” First of all, I would like to clarify what you mean by objective proof. I believe it always helps to clarify terms to avoid misunderstanding. To me, objective proof means evidence or proof. Are we agreed?

And again, evidence means the knowledge or factual evidence on which to base belief.

I am a person who did not do very well at school because I always wanted to know why; but how do you know that? When I looked at Christianity, as an adult, having had my questions dismissed as a child, I went searching for the answers to all my questions. One by one I found them.

Having been brought up as a Catholic, I was actually looking for evidence that would disprove i) God; ii) Christianity; or failing that iii) Catholicism as the true Faith.

One important factor marked my quest, that if GOD really existed, then He deserved to be served they way HE wanted, not the way I wanted to serve.

More later . . .
 
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Muslim:
this is sort of like a followup of me and exoflares discussion last night…but its reverse now…

the rules are similar… please NO MUSLIMS respond to this thread…you can pm me ifyou got suggestions but PLEASE do NOT respond as it would just make the thread go off topic…

also, if you are ignorant and vulgar, please do NOT respond… this is for cest, inJesus, murtad and few others who know who they are… this is for open minded discussion and this has NOTHING to do with Islam…

my question is:

"What objective proof you have that Jesus is the son of God?"
Click to expand...
First, Jesus existed…what he did and said is written in thousands of Christian as well as non-Christian writings…what he said and promised is seen in the lives of thousands of saints who make miracles in our lives…this is objective otherwise it wouldn’t be called miracle…People like Padre Pio and others who showed the stigmata of Christ for years is objective…from these objective things i must turn to the subjective…the sentence said by Jesus : my peace i leave to you, my peace i give you, not like the world gives you" is lived and experinced, no other peace matches what Jesus gives…finally, seeing Jesus in visions is the best thing i could hope to ever get, me, the unworthy of such love.
 
Hi Muslim,
Along with what the others have said…
13 And Jesus came into the quarters of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? 14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?

16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. 20 Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.
 
I will answer the op with a simple answer for the long one would take me weeks to research and give proper references, so here gos. Jesus fulfilled every prophesy concerning the Messiah, from the first promise of God to Adam and Eve, down to John the Baptist. Jesus is the only person EVER to have had His birth, life, death, and resurection fortold. He alone was preannounced. NOONE else was. And to me it is the least that God can do for us if He is going to send someone to us who will give us His laws and statutes, that is to preannounce that One. And Jesus fulfills this. Not to mention all the miricles and His ability to say a books worth of knowledge in just a few words.
 
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BlestOne:
Hi Muslim,
Along with what the others have said…
13 And Jesus came into the quarters of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? 14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?

16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. 20 Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.
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I’ve always found this quote interesting - why would anyone say that Jesus was John the Baptist when they were contemporaries - alive at the same time?

Btw, as our Muslim friends have kindly pointed out, lots of people apart from Jesus are called ‘Son of God’ in the Bible - it’s better to quote, for example, from John where Jesus says ‘the Father and I are one’.
 
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LilyM:
I’ve always found this quote interesting - why would anyone say that Jesus was John the Baptist when they were contemporaries - alive at the same time?

Btw, as our Muslim friends have kindly pointed out, lots of people apart from Jesus are called ‘Son of God’ in the Bible - it’s better to quote, for example, from John where Jesus says ‘the Father and I are one’.
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Lily,
I am not being glib, but how would anyone know what another looked like? No Photos, no TV, etc…
 
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Orionthehunter:
Objectively, when we look at all that Jesus:
  1. accomplished, (healing the sick, raised from the Dead)
  2. taught, (teachings of love, compassion for all as we are all made in God’s image as He told us in Genesis)
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Dear Orionthehunter:

Was he (Jesus Christ) also **full of love and compassionate ** with money changers and those high ranking law doctors–Scribes and the Pharisees, when he used these classic unforgettable words which eventually caused his enemies to convict him on a crime that he did not commit:

**- hypocrites
  • blind guides
  • Blind fools
  • You blind ones
  • full of plunder
  • self-indulged
  • full of dead men’s bones
  • every kind of filth
  • evildoers.
  • the children of those who murdered the prophets
  • serpents
  • brood of vipers!**
?
I wonder if Jesus Christ was always full of love and compassionate then why people were against him?

Had he sit in a synagogue and mind his business only by doing HALLALU-YAAS and from time to time express his LOVE and COMPASSION only like an IDEAL CHRISTIAN MONK, then do you REALLY THINK he would have enemies?

Did you ever see an enemy of Mother Teresa?
Did you ever see an enemy of any Christian Monk?
Never, right? Then are you telling me that Mother Teresa and Chritsitan Monks are superior than Jesus Christ?

Why people like you think that Muslims will not read your scriptures and see and evaluate what in fact is reported by the unknown authors of your “Gospels”?

Okay…get back to the topic of this thread and answer the OP, OBJECTIVELY and not on the strength of your inherited faith.

Let’s see who will prove OBJECTIVELY that JESUS was INDEED GOD’s PHYSICAL BEGOTTEN SON and not Saint Mary’s physical human son.

And also what proof do you have that Jesus was indeed born without Earthly father? Prove it objectively and rationally​
 
I would love to see someone prove Muhammed was a prophet rationally.[text removed]

When Jesus was on the cross he forgave those killing him. Even those Pharisee’s. Sometimes he used tough words on those who were unjust to move them to repentence. But did Jesus ever kill anyone? Did he demand the adulterous woman be killed?

Look at that story. He forgave her. Look at the hadiths of Muhammed. He had them stoned to death. AND they still do it today.

Whose God is greater? The one who is love come down from heaven? Or the one who is merciless and treats us as slaves?

Jesus is incomparably greater then the poor substitute worshipped by the Muslims.
 
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BlestOne:
Lily,
I am not being glib, but how would anyone know what another looked like? No Photos, no TV, etc…
Click to expand...
I can see you’re not being glib … now I look like a duffer :o

It just never occurred to me, because of the other answers, that they were simply saying that people confused him with John the Baptist … sigh my brain needs its 10 000 mile service.
 
yeah just like I thought… this thread would turn into a Islam bashing thread and some Muslim would respond…blah forget it…
 
Angel Bradford said:
"What objective proof you have that Jesus is the son of God?"

Daer Angel Bradford:

What proof do you have that he’s not?
Click to expand...

The burdon of proof is always on those who first claim something.

In this case it is Christians who claim such thing that Jesus was Son of God. Prior to this no Jew of Christ’s nation ever believed in such idea in physical sense beause it was a blasphemy as God is not a man in their faith.

As such it is for you to prove first that Jesus was Son of God. Once you do that and then if people do not accept your proof, then you can demand to prove otherwise.
 
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freedomm:
Dear Orionthehunter:

Was he (Jesus Christ) also **full of love and compassionate ** with money changers and those high ranking law doctors–Scribes and the Pharisees, when he used these classic unforgettable word which eventually caused his enemies to convict him on a crime that he did not commit:

**- hypocrites
  • blind guides
  • Blind fools
  • You blind ones
  • full of plunder
  • self-indulged
  • full of dead men’s bones
  • every kind of filth
  • evildoers.
  • the children of those who murdered the prophets
  • serpents
  • brood of vipers!**
?
I wonder if Jesus Christ was always full of love and compassionate then why people were against him?

Had he sit in a synagogue and mind his business only by doing HALLALU-YAAS and from time to time express his LOVE and COMPASSION only like an IDEAL CHRISTIAN MONK, then do you REALLY THINK he would have enemies?

Did you ever see an enemy of Mother Teresa?
Did you ever see an enemy of any Christian Monk?
Never, right? Then are you telling me that Mother Teresa and Chritsitan Monks are superior than Jesus Christ?

Why people like you think that Muslims will not read your scriptures and see and evaluate what in fact is reported by the unknown authors of your “Gospels”?

Okay…get back to the topic of this thread and answer the OP, OBJECTIVELY and not on the strength of your inherited faith.

Let’s see who will prove OBJECTIVELY that JESUS was INDEED GOD’s PHYSICAL BEGOTTEN SON and not Saint Mary’s physical human son.

And also what proof do you have that Jesus was indeed born without Earthly father? Prove it objectively and rationally​
Click to expand...
freedomm, your fellow Muslim in the original message said NO other muslims were to respond to his/her question. What part of
‘A question TO THE CHRISTIAN’ in the title of this thread do you not understand?

Not to mention that your post has nothing to do with the topic anyway and is incredibly repetitious as are all your posts.
 
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