A question to the Christian

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This is probably very elementary to some of the other Catholic posters here but I was blessed to find out these things recently and I’ll share them with you.

Apparently there is a study of ancient literary works by historians which basically states that manuscripts are considered historically accurate based on these things:
  1. How short is the time lapse between when original manuscript was written and the earliest known copy of the work.
  2. How many of the early copies have been found.
There is a work “Herodotus” (I never heard of it before) that historians consider accurate. The time lapse until the first copy was made was 1300 years and there were 8 early copies found. The New Testament was considered completed in 100 AD and the first copy was 30 years later. By 310 AD there were 5000 Greek copies, 10,000 Latin copies and 9,300 other copies.
To me, as far as is humanly possible, it shows that the New Testament is not a work of fiction. There also were Roman and Jewish historians that had no connection with the New Testament who have written about Jesus in the time frame in which we believe he lived.

In the New Testament, Jesus’ teaching centered on himself. The other prophets pointed to God. Jesus pointed to himself.
John 6:35 “I am the bread of life.”
Code:
John 8:12  "I am the light of the world."

John 11:25  "I am the resurrection and the life."

John 14:6   "I am the way and the truth and the life."

Luke 22:30  "My kingdom."

Matthew 11:28-29  "Come to me"

Mark 1:17  "Follow me"

Mark 14:61-62  Again the high priest asked him "Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?"  Jesus said "I am.

John 8:58  "......before Abraham was born, I am!"
It isn’t absolute proof but it is pretty convincing.
I think Muslims, like Mormons, are forced to question the validity of the bible in order to validate what it is that thier respective faiths teach. I don’t think our Muslim friend here will be satisfied with any answer we give to prove Jesus’ identity.
 
I think Muslims, like Mormons, are forced to question the validity of the bible in order to validate what it is that thier respective faiths teach. I don’t think our Muslim friend here will be satisfied with any answer we give to prove Jesus’ identity.
that’s why i wonder why Muslims ask questions in the first place.
 
this is sort of like a followup of me and exoflares discussion last night…but its reverse now…

the rules are similar… please NO MUSLIMS respond to this thread…you can pm me ifyou got suggestions but PLEASE do NOT respond as it would just make the thread go off topic…

also, if you are ignorant and vulgar, please do NOT respond… this is for cest, inJesus, murtad and few others who know who they are… this is for open minded discussion and this has NOTHING to do with Islam…

my question is:

"What objective proof you have that Jesus is the son of God?"
The biggest proof aside from my faith (not objective) is using reason.

But the cherry on the cake is a look at the groups that deny his crucifixion.

This cements it for me.
 
Good question! Maybe they assume our faith is baseless, and this is like throwing a bomb into an enemy fox hole?
If they thought it was baseless they wouldnt be twisting themselves in knots to come here and listen to Injesus and others that they cant compete with.

How many of you guys spend time on Islam forums? Asking them to prove things?:rolleyes:
 
Hi Muslim,

I need no **objective proof **to believe that Jesus is the Son of God 😃 Besides, we need objective evidence for those who DON’T believe the way we do. Sorry to say, I don’t like your question, neither do I believe that you are posing it with sincerity 🙂

Still, please take some pains to answer my question below. If you can answer it without resorting to the Bible or the Quran and bring an objective proof, I shall be able to answer your question 😉

“What objective proof you have that Jesus is NOT the Son of God?”

Please remember that I don’t need your opinion since it cannot be objective.

Salaam,
Angelos
this post sums it up Muslim.

It’s about faith in what the 1st century churches established by the apostles believed in and what the sacred Traditions tell us.In addition to our faith in our Saints who believed in what we believe in.Add to this our personal experiences of course.
 
If they thought it was baseless they wouldnt be twisting themselves in knots to come here and listen to Injesus and others that they cant compete with.

How many of you guys spend time on Islam forums? Asking them to prove things?:rolleyes:
What I’m saying is that they think our faith is baseless, and come on here to try and refute it.
 
Many others have made good points:
  • Jesus live, death and resurrection were foretold (though cryptically).
  • The New Testament accounts dovetail nicely with other contemporary historical accounts.
  • Early church history is replete with huge controversy, fistfights even when novel theological ideas were introduced. The claim by muslims that Jesus’ divinity was a later idea ignores the fact that a new idea of such magnitude would have left a major trail to follow in historical accounts. In reality, history shows no controversy about the divinity of Jesus until the time of Arius - hundreds of years later.
  • Few to ZERO other religions have a record where 13 of the 14 (12 + Jesus +Paul) founding members were willingly executed for the faith without EVER getting any sort of personal temporal gain out of it.
  • Jesus behaved very differently than phony religious leaders. He didn’t seek power or wealth, he choose pathetically unlikely people to succeed him and support him, and he submitted humbly to those in authority over him (parents, high priests, even John the Baptist at his own baptism). Who else can say that?
The historical evidence supports the historicity of the New Testament quite well and the New Testament is quite clear on who Jesus claimed to be.
 
What I’m saying is that they think our faith is baseless, and come on here to try and refute it.
I disagree. I think they are doubting their own faith. I think they come in here with the excuse they are going to spread Islam, but I think they doubt their faith. Then after a couple rounds with a few here they get more seeds of doubt.

Others are only here for damage control every time a radical goes off the deep end.

And others are radicals off the deep end.

Thats what I have noticed.
 
Muslim,

I’ll try to answer as best I can. The first thing I guess that would have to acknowledged is that Jesus was obviously supernatural. What I mean is that a man who was born too a poor carpenter’s family in a back water area truly changed the world.

Jesus now has has over 2 billion followers on earth. 2 billion people follow a man that never ruled a nation, never picked up a sword, had no wealth and no recognized title. He did not benefit from extraordinary education, grew up in a backwater town and his travels never took him beyond a 100 mile radius.

There is nothing outstanding about Jesus on the surface. Yet, he confounded scholars, terrified kings and his teachings eventually brought the most powerful nation on earth too its knees. Some of the greatest teachers and philosiphers that ever lived worshiped him. His teachings brought some of the most primative cultures into enlightenment.

Now, one might say that a prohpet could have done the same and yet no other prophet accomplished as much with as little at his disposal. Also keep in mind that all of these things were initiated by nothing more than 3 years of teaching. Surely this was no ordinary man.

If (and I realize this might be stepping out of objectivity) we consider the concept of a promised messiah as true there is some evidence within those prophesies that suggest that the messiah would be divine. However, I’ll not go there for sake of objectivity.

To this day miracles still occur in His name and entire legal systems attempt to hold too his moral teachings. Charitable organizations all over the globe are at work just honor him.

I realize that none of this is irrefutable proof. I’ll admit that I have limitations, still I find all of that to amazing to have come from such humble origins.
 
I disagree. I think they are doubting their own faith. I think they come in here with the excuse they are going to spread Islam, but I think they doubt their faith. Then after a couple rounds with a few here they get more seeds of doubt.

Others are only here for damage control every time a radical goes off the deep end.

And others are radicals off the deep end.

Thats what I have noticed.
Many of them are on here trying to convert us to Islam.
 
Eh, dont know if there is any objective proof of him being the son of God.

There is pretty clear evidence that he existed and had a rather small following during his life which grew post-mordom

I think there is also a recovered Roman death warrant but I dont think it says much besides you have authority to Kill jesus.

As for mircales, it gets tricky. There are several reports of his miracles saying it proves he is the son of God, but one need to remember that during that time you pretty much a new ‘prophet’ every other week and consequently getting beheaded shortly after by roman authorities. There is also evidence of other claiming to be messiah’s and reports saying they are the ons of god as well.

Some claim that the certainty of the reports verify Jesus, but again, they are messy. There is also reports of Dragons, mosters, gods etc.

The Gospels themselves may ahve some insight to him but unfortunatly Jesus himself never wrote anything (as far as we know) and the gospels seem to touch on different aspects of what Jesus meant and was. Also, the ealier gospels/teaching seem to imply an apocolypse fairly soon (most likely in their life-time). This view was later altered in Tim. onward.

So yes, dont know if there is any definate scientific proof that Jesus was the son of God, there isnt even that much info on historical Jesus. For such a famous man, he sure is mysterious 😉
 
Many of them are on here trying to convert us to Islam.
Okay.

But the thread in question here is offer objective proof of Jesus …

How in the world is this going to convert anyone?

They can ask us all day long, yet THEY can offer NO OBJECTIVE proof against anything we believe about Jesus.

So what’s the point of all this? If anyone is going to convert from this thread, I am going to say-

See ya. I’ll keep the pew warm for you for when you come back!
 
This is probably very elementary to some of the other Catholic posters here but I was blessed to find out these things recently and I’ll share them with you.

Apparently there is a study of ancient literary works by historians which basically states that manuscripts are considered historically accurate based on these things:
  1. How short is the time lapse between when original manuscript was written and the earliest known copy of the work.
  2. How many of the early copies have been found.
There is a work “Herodotus” (I never heard of it before) that historians consider accurate. The time lapse until the first copy was made was 1300 years and there were 8 early copies found. The New Testament was considered completed in 100 AD and the first copy was 30 years later. By 310 AD there were 5000 Greek copies, 10,000 Latin copies and 9,300 other copies.
To me, as far as is humanly possible, it shows that the New Testament is not a work of fiction. There also were Roman and Jewish historians that had no connection with the New Testament who have written about Jesus in the time frame in which we believe he lived.

In the New Testament, Jesus’ teaching centered on himself. The other prophets pointed to God. Jesus pointed to himself.
John 6:35 “I am the bread of life.”
Code:
John 8:12  "I am the light of the world."

John 11:25  "I am the resurrection and the life."

John 14:6   "I am the way and the truth and the life."

Luke 22:30  "My kingdom."

Matthew 11:28-29  "Come to me"

Mark 1:17  "Follow me"

Mark 14:61-62  Again the high priest asked him "Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?"  Jesus said "I am.

John 8:58  "......before Abraham was born, I am!"
It isn’t absolute proof but it is pretty convincing.
This is powerful objective evidence-- that is, if anyone’s really looking for it. 🙂

Keep in mind too that the earliest New testament manuscript fragments date to the first and second centuries AD, within 30 to 50 years of the original writing.

More than 40 remaining Greek manuscripts date before the fourth century–several from the second century–collectively composing most of the New Testament.

The earliest existing copy of an entire New Testament text is the Codex Sinaiticus (c.350); and Codex Vaticanus (c.325) also contains the entire New Testament except Pastoral Epistles and Revelation.

Please also note also that virtually the entire New Testament can be reconstructed from accurate quotations found in the writings of the Early Fathers–most of whom date from well before the composition of the Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Vaticanus–which again seems to verify the accuracy and trustworthiness of the present day copies.

In addition to this, we have the eyewitness accounts/testimony on non-Christians–such as Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny the Younger–who specfically said that Christians worshipped Jesus as God and confirmed many other things that early Christians do.

When one adds to this the fact that even some very liberal scholars accepts the dates of the 70s for Mark, the 80s for Matthew and Luke, and the 90s for John, then this seems to indicate that all these books, if accurately dated, were composed within the lifetimes of the early witnesses-- including hostile eyewitnesses who would have served as a corrective measure if false teachings about Jesus were going around.

If this isn’t considered powerful objective evidence, then I suspect that nothing short of Christ himself appearing supernaturally to them will convince them of the truth.
 
so did Noah, Moses, David, etc… are they Son of God?
verifiable? by what? The Bible?
Noah, Moses and David never claimed to be the Son of God. The Old Testament contains hundreds of prophecies of Christ, fulfilled by Christ. They were not, as some have tried to claim, written after Jesus’ life because the Old Testament was translated into Greek 150-200 years before Christ was born. Here are just three of them:

Isaiah 7:14, Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel." (“Immanuel” means “God with us”). I’m not an expert on Islam, but it’s my understanding that Muslims believe in the virgin birth of Christ – that he had no human father. Now why would this be if he were a mere man? The prophecy that speaks of Christ’s virgin birth calls him “God with us.” Only someone who were God and man would not need two human parents to be conceived. And the name “God with us” tells us that the child born to the Virgin would be God – “God with us.”

Isaiah 53:4-12, “Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away. Who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence nor was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my suffering servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. . .for he bore the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors.”

This is the prophecy of the “Suffering Servant” who takes upon himself the guilt of all the sin of mankind, dies, and yet “sees the light of life” and will “prolong his days.” He doesn’t remain dead – he is raised to life. Let me ask you – how can one mere human being take upon himself the sins of every human being? Only God can save us from sin, and this prophecy of Christ says “my suffering servant will justify [save] many.” Jesus is clearly no mere man. And “Jesus” is the Greek name for “Joshua” which means “God saves.” If God saves, and Jesus, as prophesied in the Old Testament, saves us, then He is God.

What is the basis of God’s forgiveness in Islam? God is just and must punish sin, so He can’t just forgive sin. Yet if we were to bear the punishment for our sins, that would mean being eternally separated from God. So God had to take the punishment of our sins upon Himself (as prophesied in Isaiah) so that He could then offer us mercy and forgiveness, His justice having been satisfied. God being pure spirit could not suffer death or stand in our place, so He had to become a man and assume human nature. Jesus became fully man while remaining fully God–there’s the mystery of God for you!. In His humanity He could suffer and die for our sins, and being pure and sinless Himself, didn’t die for His own sins, but for others, which is why He was resurrected – He wasn’t personally guilty of sin, so death had no hold over him.

This is why there are hundreds of prophecies pre-announcing the coming of Christ. Anyone making such outlandish claims to deity would need some evidence to back up their claims. We have this in the Old Testament prophecies, in Jesus’ life (His miracles, His teaching). Why would His disciples, one of whom denied Him three times out of fear and the others deserted him after His arrest, all fearlessly preach Jesus as Son of God–after seeing the resurrected Lord – and face death in the process? (only one of the apostles died a natural death, the apostle John ). Why would they die for what they knew was a lie? It makes no sense.

Jesus Himself claimed to be God and accepted worship – He was either Who He claimed to be or a seriously deluded/evil individual, but the facts don’t support that conclusion.
 
this is sort of like a followup of me and exoflares discussion last night…but its reverse now…

the rules are similar… please NO MUSLIMS respond to this thread…you can pm me ifyou got suggestions but PLEASE do NOT respond as it would just make the thread go off topic…

also, if you are ignorant and vulgar, please do NOT respond… this is for cest, inJesus, murtad and few others who know who they are… this is for open minded discussion and this has NOTHING to do with Islam…

my question is:

"What objective proof you have that Jesus is the son of God?"
Hi Muslim,
Here’s a question for you… can you provide objective proof that Abraham was not a Jew?

According to the Abrahamic covenant… God promised Abraham land, a nation of people, and a King. The country of Israel fulfills the land and nation of people. When Jesus returns, He will be the fulfillment of that covenant. Israel was a promised land and no matter what happens, Israel is not going anywhere.
 
Oh my gosh, this is just like that type of thread I posted sometime back. Looks like somebody remembered! 😉

And just as with that last time, it looks like the only remaining option has become “tu quoque”.
 
Okay.

But the thread in question here is offer objective proof of Jesus …

How in the world is this going to convert anyone?

They can ask us all day long, yet THEY can offer NO OBJECTIVE proof against anything we believe about Jesus.

So what’s the point of all this? If anyone is going to convert from this thread, I am going to say-

See ya. I’ll keep the pew warm for you for when you come back!
Muslims assume we have no basis for believing Jesus is the Son of God. They pose these questions for the sake of making us doubt our faith. It’s like if a Christian was witnessing to a Muslim, and asked why they think Muhammad is a prophet.

It’s obvious they’re trying to convert us.
 
Muslims assume we have no basis for believing Jesus is the Son of God. They pose these questions for the sake of making us doubt our faith. It’s like if a Christian was witnessing to a Muslim, and asked why they think Muhammad is a prophet.

It’s obvious they’re trying to convert us.
Thats fine with me. they can try, yet they still can not provide Objective Proof that we have it wrong about Jesus.

I dont mind them trying using legal and humane methods to try to convert someone. Why not?
 
We obviously do not agree on the blood of Jesus and water baptism, but we do agree that Jesus is the Son of God and from that standpoint I’m on your side on this one.

You see, Muslims do not believe that Abraham was a Jew… just a “friend of God”. From the Word of God (my KJV), we know that Israel came from Abraham. And, God made a covenant with Abraham which we (protestants) call the “Abrahamic Covenant”. God promised to Abraham land, a nation of people, and a King. From Abraham came the 12 tribes of Israel which were brought of the land of Egypt by God thru Moses. 2 of those promises have been fulfilled just as the Word of God teaches. Israel is the proof.

That’s why I asked if “Muslim” could prove that Abraham was not a Jew. Just take a look at the nation of Israel and it’s history. It was all foretold in the Bible including the return of Jesus as a the King.
 
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