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A
Auntie_M
Guest
I have to go along with Jeanette with this being a waste of time. Traditionalist have been taught only what was necessary for them to learn. Which in turn causes confusion within the church.
(Has Luther been reincarnated?)
What is sooooo wrong with holding hands while praying the Our Father? We, (as a whole body of the church), are joining with her in the “Our Father”. And, to me, holding hands shows love one to another. We don’t pray “My Father”, we pray “Our Father”.
When we hold hands, I really honestly feel “Our Father in heaven” is looking down on us with a smile on his face. All his children are showing such love and kindness to each other!!!
God is love, as stated in the Bible. He wants us to be like HIM.
Holding hands, I have been told, (by a traditionlist) interfers with their focusing on Christ alone. But what IF Christ would rather us focus on each other…showing them love…because isn’t that Christ like?
He said to have no other Gods before him. And love they neighbor as thy self. And the greatest commandment is LOVE
ARE WE SHOWING LOVE BY CRITIZING AND BELITTLING OTHERS ON SUCH MINOR POINTS…
And yes, these are MINOR points. God NEVER TOLD US TO SAY MASS A CERTAIN WAY OR STAND A CERTAIN WAY OR LOOK A CERTAIN WAY, OR WEAR A CERTAIN THING…and IF we didn’t He would NOT COME INTO HIS CHURCH AND BE AMONG US!
I’l say this again…IT IS NOT THE OUTWARD APPEARANCE…IT’S WHAT INSIDE THAT COUNTS.
You go to mass with a happy. loving heart, God will bless you with a bigger happy loving heart…
You go to mass with a critical heart, God will bless you with an bigger critical heart.
What He is really saying…
Which way will you go:shrug:
(Has Luther been reincarnated?)
What is sooooo wrong with holding hands while praying the Our Father? We, (as a whole body of the church), are joining with her in the “Our Father”. And, to me, holding hands shows love one to another. We don’t pray “My Father”, we pray “Our Father”.
When we hold hands, I really honestly feel “Our Father in heaven” is looking down on us with a smile on his face. All his children are showing such love and kindness to each other!!!
God is love, as stated in the Bible. He wants us to be like HIM.
Holding hands, I have been told, (by a traditionlist) interfers with their focusing on Christ alone. But what IF Christ would rather us focus on each other…showing them love…because isn’t that Christ like?
He said to have no other Gods before him. And love they neighbor as thy self. And the greatest commandment is LOVE
ARE WE SHOWING LOVE BY CRITIZING AND BELITTLING OTHERS ON SUCH MINOR POINTS…
And yes, these are MINOR points. God NEVER TOLD US TO SAY MASS A CERTAIN WAY OR STAND A CERTAIN WAY OR LOOK A CERTAIN WAY, OR WEAR A CERTAIN THING…and IF we didn’t He would NOT COME INTO HIS CHURCH AND BE AMONG US!
I’l say this again…IT IS NOT THE OUTWARD APPEARANCE…IT’S WHAT INSIDE THAT COUNTS.
You go to mass with a happy. loving heart, God will bless you with a bigger happy loving heart…
You go to mass with a critical heart, God will bless you with an bigger critical heart.
What He is really saying…
Which way will you go:shrug:
P
patrick457
Guest
The reason what many (not just ‘Traditionalists’, but also those would not consider themselves one mind you) have a problem in holding hands during the Our Father is that it is not prescribed in the rubrics (and in fact, is contrary to it) and thus, is not a required gesture.I have to go along with Jeanette with this being a waste of time. Traditionalist have been taught only what was necessary for them to learn. Which in turn causes confusion within the church.
(Has Luther been reincarnated?)
What is sooooo wrong with holding hands while praying the Our Father? We, (as a whole body of the church), are joining with her in the “Our Father”. And, to me, holding hands shows love one to another. We don’t pray “My Father”, we pray “Our Father”.
When we hold hands, I really honestly feel “Our Father in heaven” is looking down on us with a smile on his face. All his children are showing such love and kindness to each other!!!
God is love, as stated in the Bible. He wants us to be like HIM.
Holding hands, I have been told, (by a traditionlist) interfers with their focusing on Christ alone. But what IF Christ would rather us focus on each other…showing them love…because isn’t that Christ like?
Karl Keating wrote about it in an article once (in Fatima Family Messenger, if I recall correctly) but I don’t have it with me right now. He did however again talk about it in his April 2006 E-Letter.
I do agree that a lot of Traditionalists seem to be sharp-tongued and rather impatient, and I’d like to own up to that. So, on their behalf, I apologize.
Ah, but the Church has given us specific guidelines on how to celebrate a Mass, which also specifies on what should the Priest and people should be doing during specific parts of the Mass.
The Lord gave authority to His Bride the Church (Matthew 16: 18 and Luke 10: 16 anyone?). We’ve spent a lot of time already listening to what our selves say, don’t you think it’s time we listen to Her?
Sadly, there are a number of clerics and lay people who ignore this little rulebook and ‘make it up as you go’.
One more thing; ‘Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi’ (The Law of Prayer is the Law of Belief).
I wholeheartedly agree…
L
Lazerlike42
Guest
If it helps, the reason that holding hands during the Our Father is wrong is because of the Liturgical symbolism of the Mass in which the laity play a role, both in the EF and in the OF.
In either form - or in any Divine Liturgy in the East for that matter - the Mass is the highest form of prayer we can offer to God. It is a very unique sort of prayer. It is not devotional prayer - the sort of prayer we do on our own, in front of the tabernacle, or at home, or in a prayer meeting for example. Rather, it is in a very real sense the priestly prayer of Jesus Christ being offered to the Father through His Church.
In other words, when we go to Mass, we are joining into a prayer that is being offered not by us as individuals or even as a community, but by the Church, which is the body of Christ, and so by Christ Himself. We shouldn’t change what goes on there any more than we would walk up to someone praying in church and start adding our own words to whatever they are trying to say. It would intruding on their prayer to do so, obviously. Nobody would think to do this.
The Church is offering Her prayer to God in the Mass, and She has certain things She wishes to offer Him. We play a role in that. When we do our own thing, we are really taking away from whatever it is that the Church is trying to offer.
For example: the reason for the particular issue regarding the Our Father is because of the symbolism the Church is offering at this point. The Sacrifice of Christ is made in the Canon of the Mass, after which we pray the Our Father. This symbolizes that after the Sacrifice of Christ on Calvary, we are now children of God. We are now, therefore, brothers and sisters under the one Father Who is in Heaven. We now have peace, having our sins forgiven. The sign of peace is a very important symbol of this. When we hold hands prior to this, we detract from the symbolism of that act. The Church is trying to offer to God a symbolic gesture in prayer, just like we do when we make the sign of the Cross or fold our hands. This gesture is to recognize the peace and the newfound brotherhood we have in Christ.
So it’s not just a matter of being picky. The Mass is not in any way even remotely similar to a Protestant service, and I think that’s where a lot of confusion comes up. The Mass is literally one prayer that is offered by the body of Christ and which we, members of that body, participate in. It’s not our own personal, devotional prayer. It needs to be rigid and strict, because it is a very focused, very “narrow” prayer that is offered by the Church. If we want to do these other things like holding hands during the Our Father, we need to do it in another setting, perhaps at a Protestant style worship service. I have long been of the opinion that parishes ought to offer these as supplements to the Mass for those who desire that sort of thing.
In either form - or in any Divine Liturgy in the East for that matter - the Mass is the highest form of prayer we can offer to God. It is a very unique sort of prayer. It is not devotional prayer - the sort of prayer we do on our own, in front of the tabernacle, or at home, or in a prayer meeting for example. Rather, it is in a very real sense the priestly prayer of Jesus Christ being offered to the Father through His Church.
In other words, when we go to Mass, we are joining into a prayer that is being offered not by us as individuals or even as a community, but by the Church, which is the body of Christ, and so by Christ Himself. We shouldn’t change what goes on there any more than we would walk up to someone praying in church and start adding our own words to whatever they are trying to say. It would intruding on their prayer to do so, obviously. Nobody would think to do this.
The Church is offering Her prayer to God in the Mass, and She has certain things She wishes to offer Him. We play a role in that. When we do our own thing, we are really taking away from whatever it is that the Church is trying to offer.
For example: the reason for the particular issue regarding the Our Father is because of the symbolism the Church is offering at this point. The Sacrifice of Christ is made in the Canon of the Mass, after which we pray the Our Father. This symbolizes that after the Sacrifice of Christ on Calvary, we are now children of God. We are now, therefore, brothers and sisters under the one Father Who is in Heaven. We now have peace, having our sins forgiven. The sign of peace is a very important symbol of this. When we hold hands prior to this, we detract from the symbolism of that act. The Church is trying to offer to God a symbolic gesture in prayer, just like we do when we make the sign of the Cross or fold our hands. This gesture is to recognize the peace and the newfound brotherhood we have in Christ.
So it’s not just a matter of being picky. The Mass is not in any way even remotely similar to a Protestant service, and I think that’s where a lot of confusion comes up. The Mass is literally one prayer that is offered by the body of Christ and which we, members of that body, participate in. It’s not our own personal, devotional prayer. It needs to be rigid and strict, because it is a very focused, very “narrow” prayer that is offered by the Church. If we want to do these other things like holding hands during the Our Father, we need to do it in another setting, perhaps at a Protestant style worship service. I have long been of the opinion that parishes ought to offer these as supplements to the Mass for those who desire that sort of thing.
B
Brennan_Doherty
Guest
The reason people discuss the form of the Mass is because it is important. The liturgy is one of the primary means for a Catholic to sanctify his soul. The form does matter. When the liturgy is stripped down, or celebrated poorly, or with poor music in one sense Catholics are being robbed of one of their primary means of sanctification. If people want to discuss things like contemplative prayer that’s great (at least that’s one form of prayer a committee can’t rework!). However, in the Traditional Catholicism forum people are going to discuss the liturgy. And if some come on the forum attempting to maintain a stance that the form of the liturgy really doesn’t matter then they are going to get some arguments with that.
Yes, the Catholic Church is beautiful because She is Christ’s bride. Traditionalists simply want that beauty to be expressed in the Church’s liturgy, art, and architecture as it helps sanctify people’s souls and evangelize. And it’s been done before.
Yes, the Catholic Church is beautiful because She is Christ’s bride. Traditionalists simply want that beauty to be expressed in the Church’s liturgy, art, and architecture as it helps sanctify people’s souls and evangelize. And it’s been done before.
O
Our_Refuge
Guest
I am also a life long Catholic. The Latin Mass was the liturgy of my childhood. I was an altar boy. I can remember to this day when my dad was asked to come to the Church and help take out the communion rail. I believe in tradition. My children have only known going to mass with stripped down sanctuaries and going to churches that look like gymnasiums.
I drive past 5 Catholic churches to go to a Catholic Church that was built in 1950. It is gothic style with a beautiful sanctuary with the tabernacle behind the altar. It still has the communion rail. Everyone kneels to receive. There is no guitar music only traditional with an organ. I take my adult children there as often as I can. It is a mass of the ordinary form.
I also go the Latin Mass as often as I can. There is nothing like a High Mass of the extraordinary form with all of the bells and whistles and the traditional music.
I really do embrace the following words of Cardinal Ratzinger
“While there are many motives that might have led a great number of people to seek a refuge in the traditional liturgy, the chief one is that they find the dignity of the sacred preserved there. After the Council there were many priests who deliberately raised ‘desacralization’ to the level of a program, on the plea that the New Testament abolished the cult of the Temple: the veil of the Temple which was torn from top to bottom at the moment of Christ’s death on the cross is, according to certain people, the sign of the end of the sacred. The death of Jesus, outside the City walls, that is to say, in the public world, is now the true religion. Religion, if it has any being at all, must have it in the nonsacredness of daily life, in love that is lived. Inspired by such reasoning, they put aside the sacred vestments; they have despoiled the churches as much as they could of that splendor which brings to mind the sacred; and they have reduced the liturgy to the language and the gestures of ordinary life, by means of greetings, common signs of friendship, and such things…. we ought to get back the dimension of the sacred in the liturgy. The liturgy is not a festivity; it is not a meeting for the purpose of having a good time. It is of no importance that the parish priest has cudgeled his brains to come up with suggestive ideas or imaginative novelties. The liturgy is what makes the Thrice-Holy God present amongst us; it is the burning bush; it is the Alliance of God with man in Jesus Christ, who has died and risen again. The grandeur of the liturgy does not rest upon the fact that it offers an interesting entertainment, but in rendering tangible the Totally Other, whom we are not capable of summoning. He comes because He wills. In other words, the essential in the liturgy is the mystery, which is realized in the common ritual of the Church; all the rest diminishes it. Men experiment with it in lively fashion, and find themselves deceived, when the mystery is transformed into distraction, when the chief actor in the liturgy is not the Living God but the priest or the liturgical director.”
C
catharina
Guest
Simply beautiful words from then-Cardinal Ratzinger. Thank you.
Would you provide the source, please?
O
Our_Refuge
Guest
D
DustinsDad
Guest
C
catharina
Guest
Thank you so much for the link. I’ve bookmarked it.
Seeing it in its historical context is both enlightening and heartening.
J
JReducation
Guest
The holding of hands during the Lord’s Prayer at mass was left up to the Conference of Bishops to decided. The Conference of Bishops in the USA left it up to the Archbishops of each Province. Some Provinces have it and some do not. It’s really alright as long as the Archbishop of the Province allows it. In our Province we have it. When I went to school in Washington DC, which is part of the Baltimore Province, they do not have it.The reason what many (not just ‘Traditionalists’, but also those would not consider themselves one mind you) have a problem in holding hands during the Our Father is that it is not prescribed in the rubrics (and in fact, is contrary to it) and thus, is not a required gesture.
Karl Keating wrote about it in an article once (in Fatima Family Messenger, if I recall correctly) but I don’t have it with me right now. He did however again talk about it in his April 2006 E-Letter.
I do agree that a lot of Traditionalists seem to be sharp-tongued and rather impatient, and I’d like to own up to that. So, on their behalf, I apologize.
Ah, but the Church has given us specific guidelines on how to celebrate a Mass, which also specifies on what should the Priest and people should be doing during specific parts of the Mass.
The Lord gave authority to His Bride the Church (Matthew 16: 18 and Luke 10: 16 anyone?). We’ve spent a lot of time already listening to what our selves say, don’t you think it’s time we listen to Her?
Sadly, there are a number of clerics and lay people who ignore this little rulebook and ‘make it up as you go’.
One more thing; ‘Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi’ (The Law of Prayer is the Law of Belief).
I wholeheartedly agree…
Before we criticize, in charity, we must make sure that we know the rules of the Church, the Conference of Bishops, the Province, the Diocese, and the Parish, sometimes even the religious community that runs the parish. There are rules that are left up to the competent superiors at different levels.
JR
L
Lazerlike42
Guest
In a This Rock article, holding hands during the Our Father is listed as being one of the top ten liturgical abuses and of it is said:The holding of hands during the Lord’s Prayer at mass was left up to the Conference of Bishops to decided. The Conference of Bishops in the USA left it up to the Archbishops of each Province. Some Provinces have it and some do not. It’s really alright as long as the Archbishop of the Province allows it. In our Province we have it. When I went to school in Washington DC, which is part of the Baltimore Province, they do not have it.
Before we criticize, in charity, we must make sure that we know the rules of the Church, the Conference of Bishops, the Province, the Diocese, and the Parish, sometimes even the religious community that runs the parish. There are rules that are left up to the competent superiors at different levels.
JR
Unless the Congregation has released a new statement on this, I believe you are mistaken.
A
Auntie_M
Guest
I am probably wrong but
I really don’t think our Holy Father would “forbid” this if it is causing a more loving attitude toward each other. After all, he is trying to bring about a healing in this division.
Wow, just imagine IF the Traditionlist and the “moderns” would go hand in hand. It just might do us all some good.
And I would be proud to hold your hand…
I really don’t think our Holy Father would “forbid” this if it is causing a more loving attitude toward each other. After all, he is trying to bring about a healing in this division.
Wow, just imagine IF the Traditionlist and the “moderns” would go hand in hand. It just might do us all some good.
And I would be proud to hold your hand…
L
Lazerlike42
Guest
It’s not about whether it causes a more loving attitude toward one another. Remember that the commandment to Love one another comes second to the commandment to Love God. Of course, one cannot Love God if one is not Loving his neighbor. However, the Liturgy is, as I said, the prayer of the Church, a prayer in which everything has meaning. The sign of peace has a very specific purpose, and that purpose is indeed to show our Love for one another to the Father, and to foster it, and indeed to offer it to the Father. When we extend our hands to one another prior to that, we are taking away from the symbolism which is to be offered to God at the time we are doing so, and we are detracting from the genuine sing of peace that is to be offered at the appropriate time.
The Mass is entirely the prayer of the Church… it isn’t in any way our private prayer other than to the degree that we give ourselves to pray the prayer of the Church. We need to follow the rubrics and not add to or change them in any way, for if we do so we are disturbing that prayer which the Body of Christ offers to God.
The Holy Father and the Church desire greatly to foster love for one another and to help us connect to God in our own unique personal ways, but the Mass is something entirely different.
Think about it this way: if you could, would you ever dream of taking a time machine back to Calvary and changing the way Jesus Christ offered Himself as He died on the cross? Would you tell Him to say something different, or to hold His head a different way? When we make our own additions or changes to the Mass, this is essentially what we are doing.
Peace and God bless
P
patrick457
Guest
Ditto that.
P
patrick457
Guest
IF the custom is causing ‘a more loving attitude toward each other’. However I think that the custom does more to foster division toward many in the Church than the opposite, sadly.
To quote Karl’s E-Letter I linked to last post which addresses the issue:
Peace
A
Auntie_M
Guest
You know, One thing I am really confused about. The traditionalist say “stick to the program” We are honoring God by not “taking away” or “adding to” . This is the highest form of prayer and not an individual thing.
I have read about masses in Latin in years gone by, the people didn’t know what was being said, so they sat and prayed the Rosary. Were they “doing it wrong” by saying another prayer while the priest is praying in Latin? And this was tradition?
Wasn’t this “practice” VERY common back then. With everyone praying with “different” prayer intentions? Were they Glorifying God in the way you talk about. One being “not in the same mind”.
and therefore NOT praying the same prayer.
I do have to admit, as a Catholic convert, the first time I went to mass, I was NOT made to feel welcome. I later understood why in the sanctuary, but not even outside the church was there much concern for the “other fellow”.
It doesn’t have to be a “social club” to show a little kindness to someone who is new and doesn’t know the ropes.
Let’s say, for example, your first day at school. Didn’t know where the restroom was, did anyone come up to you and show you the way, or helped you find the lunchroom. A big scary school and NO one to “take your hand”. frightening…
A little common curtesy goes a long way.
I have read about masses in Latin in years gone by, the people didn’t know what was being said, so they sat and prayed the Rosary. Were they “doing it wrong” by saying another prayer while the priest is praying in Latin? And this was tradition?
Wasn’t this “practice” VERY common back then. With everyone praying with “different” prayer intentions? Were they Glorifying God in the way you talk about. One being “not in the same mind”.
and therefore NOT praying the same prayer.
I do have to admit, as a Catholic convert, the first time I went to mass, I was NOT made to feel welcome. I later understood why in the sanctuary, but not even outside the church was there much concern for the “other fellow”.
It doesn’t have to be a “social club” to show a little kindness to someone who is new and doesn’t know the ropes.
Let’s say, for example, your first day at school. Didn’t know where the restroom was, did anyone come up to you and show you the way, or helped you find the lunchroom. A big scary school and NO one to “take your hand”. frightening…
A little common curtesy goes a long way.
O
Our_Refuge
Guest
I grew up with the Latin Mass. We knew what was being said and the majority were not saying the rosary at Mass. They were reading from their missal and following the Mass. This lie about the way things were is getting old.
This was not common and eveyone was not praying with different intentions.The old mass was the mass of saints, martyrs and hundreds of saints and the common laity.
.
Sorry for your experience. DId you introduce yourself? DId they know you were new? Protestant services are more like social events so naturally they would be more outgoing. Catholics are going to worship God in the sacrifice of the Mass. You shouldn’t expect the same atmosphere. Once you get to know members through altar socities, women/mens clubs etc then there is very little difference.
L
Lazerlike42
Guest
What you’re confused about is sinful man. Just because the majority of Catholics fornicate, that doesn’t mean that it isn’t something that isn’t supposed to be done, right?You know, One thing I am really confused about. The traditionalist say “stick to the program” We are honoring God by not “taking away” or “adding to” . This is the highest form of prayer and not an individual thing.
I have read about masses in Latin in years gone by, the people didn’t know what was being said, so they sat and prayed the Rosary. Were they “doing it wrong” by saying another prayer while the priest is praying in Latin? And this was tradition?
Wasn’t this “practice” VERY common back then. With everyone praying with “different” prayer intentions? Were they Glorifying God in the way you talk about. One being “not in the same mind”.
and therefore NOT praying the same prayer.
I do have to admit, as a Catholic convert, the first time I went to mass, I was NOT made to feel welcome. I later understood why in the sanctuary, but not even outside the church was there much concern for the “other fellow”.
It doesn’t have to be a “social club” to show a little kindness to someone who is new and doesn’t know the ropes.
Let’s say, for example, your first day at school. Didn’t know where the restroom was, did anyone come up to you and show you the way, or helped you find the lunchroom. A big scary school and NO one to “take your hand”. frightening…
A little common curtesy goes a long way.
Auntie M, I’m certainly not a traditionalist. If you look around this forum you’ll see me offering my criticisms of the Tridentine Mass, for example (I actually love the TLM but I do not hold it as above criticism).
Now I’m going to disagree with Our Refuge… I have also heard that what you described was going on frequently, and I have heard it from traditionalist Catholics who prefer the Extraordinary Form. It was an abuse, however - not what was supposed to be going on, just like the holding hands during the Our Father. The Mass is the prayer of the Church, and that’s precisely why it’s so wrong to pray the Rosary during it. In fact, one of the criticisms I’ve given of the Extraordinary Form is that it more easily lends itself to this sort of thing. I have suggested that the Holy Spirit inspired the more directly participatory Ordinary Form in order to help people in our microwave culture to pay attention to Mass. Many will disagree with me, but the point is that praying the Rosary wasn’t supposed to be done, however often it was done.
Unfortunately, what you describe as not being made to feel welcome is another instance of the sin of man clouding what is the beautiful faith given us by God. At your typical parish, most of the folks there are simply not there out of a true devotion, but out of a family tradition, a nagging guilt, culture, and other rather un-spiritual reasons. There are certainly folks there like you and I, but because most of them aren’t, we end up with this sort of unloving atmosphere. In fact if everyone was devout, you’d have no problem with coldness in the lobby area, because everyone would be offering thanksgiving for 20 minutes after Mass rather than being rude out there.
That’s how it goes when we are going to belong to a hospital for sinners, though. Always remember that!
O
Our_Refuge
Guest
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