A rant in defense of the Novus Ordo

[catharina]

Woh Nellie…be careful the words you choose. You’re not trying to say that all those who disagree with you somehow lack love for the Church?

I know your not saying that?!?!



God bless,

Dies Irae

I know you’re not trying to put words in Jeanette’s mouth or mind.

Jeanette clearly loves and appreciates the Church as a faithful daughter of the Church. There are some others who seem to imagine that they are to love the Church as a parent or overseer “loves” another. It’s evident that they are very willing to criticze, condemn and ridicule the Church - that’s not the devotion a loving son or daughter should give to Holy Mother Church.

 

[Auntie_M]

Thank you stmaria for pointing out that lay folk have to be vigilant in defending the faith. The Lord Himself said wolves would rise amongst the sheep - why it comes as a surprise to some people when it actually happens I’ll never know .

Dies Irae

I may be wrong but I always thought that “defending the faith”
was referring to "Catholic versus Protestant". Where there’s real problems. I just NEVER conceived that we would have to defend the faith with “Catholic versus Catholic”.

Nor did I ever think that ANY Catholic would “Protest” against a Pope.( remember he IS the vicar of Christ)

There’s a very good book out that I suggest all to read.

"More Catholic Than the Pope An Inside Look at Extreme Traditionalism" by Patrick Madrid and Pete Vere

 

[Saint_Gemma]

Actually, I’ll see you’re half full and raise you a half full, because frankly, I think the glass is overflowing!!!

**But then, I love the Catholic Church. Maybe because I see her with fresh eyes. I hope I always see her with fresh eyes, I really don’t like the way people with tired eyes tend to view her. **

God Bless!

You probably did not mean it that way, but that could be interpreted to mean that traditional Catholics do not love the Catholic Church and view Her with tired eyes.

 

[Auntie_M]

I know you’re not trying to put words in Jeanette’s mouth or mind.

Jeanette clearly loves and appreciates the Church as a faithful daughter of the Church. There are some others who seem to imagine that they are to love the Church as a parent or overseer “loves” another. It’s evident that they are very willing to criticze, condemn and ridicule the Church - that’s not the devotion a loving son or daughter should give to Holy Mother Church.

Another VERY VERY sad happening that alot of you may not be aware of.

It is being preached to “defend the Latin mass” AGAINST the Pope. REBEL…PROTEST…He’s not right!!! They are trying to take away our traditions, (Them against us attitudes)

But the younger ones are now starting to REBEL against their own parents. (not a new thing by no means) But a NEW thing in the Church, when they are learning THIS AT CHURCH.

“You don’t HAVE to listen to what the Pope says, we are defending our faith” But what is being defended when a child actually threatens a parent, that “I will go to the church that I want to go to and you BETTER NOT EVEN TRY TO STOP ME, and I MEAN IT!” A direct quote from a parent of a child attending the SSPX.

Folks, this IS happening. When you teach children that they don’t have to consent to the authority of the Pope as their “HOLY FATHER”, then why do they have to consent to the authority of “just an ordinary earthy father”.

This is NOT what the Catholic Church is all about. They are all FOR families being together, NOT being torn apart because of “Church beliefs?”

This is getting soooooo Protestant!

WAKE UP PEOPLE YOU DO NOT REALIZE THE AFFECT YOU ARE HAVING ON YOUR CHILDREN.

And YES, you are right, there are WOLVES among the SHEEP.

 

[Auntie_M]

to “Saint Gemma”

Maybe you could tell us a little about what actually goes on in an SSPX meeting as you evidently were one with them at one time.

And also, why did YOU decide to leave them.

Did you take the “Oath” that they require?

Please, fill us all in…

 

[Saint_Gemma]

I may be wrong but I always thought that “defending the faith”
was referring to "Catholic versus Protestant". Where there’s real problems. I just NEVER conceived that we would have to defend the faith with “Catholic versus Catholic”.

Nor did I ever think that ANY Catholic would “Protest” against a Pope.( remember he IS the vicar of Christ)

There’s a very good book out that I suggest all to read.

"More Catholic Than the Pope An Inside Look at Extreme Traditionalism" by Patrick Madrid and Pete Vere

I cannot speak for others, but while I do not like some of His Holiness’s disciplinary decisions, such as allowing female altar servers and not celebrating the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite publicly, I obey him. I pray for him and write letters expressing my concerns in a respectful manner instead of, say, holding a sign on a street corner. While sometimes I am not as respectful as I should be, please do not take this to mean that all traditional Catholics are like this! At least in my limited experience, those who do not support schismatic groups, such as the SSPX, are very respectful of the pope. At my chapel, we have a picture of His Holiness in our community room. When someone put a SSPX magazine in the vestibule, the priest tore it up and told the person that there is no excuse for being schismatic and disobeying the pope. I have never heard our priest say anything bad about the pope.

 

[Auntie_M]

.
JR, I thought that you were still in the Jewish faith up until about 18 months ago? When did you become Catholic and when did you receive your theology degree. Just curious?

I can hardly wait…Maria, for you to get into a GOOD discussion with JR. I, personally, would not dare…

 

[Saint_Gemma]

to “Saint Gemma”

Maybe you could tell us a little about what actually goes on in an SSPX meeting as you evidently were one with them at one time.

And also, why did YOU decide to leave them.

Did you take the “Oath” that they require?

Please, fill us all in…

I never actually attended an SSPX chapel, I only thought that they were not schismatic.

 

[Saint_Gemma]

Another VERY VERY sad happening that alot of you may not be aware of.

It is being preached to “defend the Latin mass” AGAINST the Pope. REBEL…PROTEST…He’s not right!!! They are trying to take away our traditions, (Them against us attitudes)

But the younger ones are now starting to REBEL against their own parents. (not a new thing by no means) But a NEW thing in the Church, when they are learning THIS AT CHURCH.

“You don’t HAVE to listen to what the Pope says, we are defending our faith” But what is being defended when a child actually threatens a parent, that “I will go to the church that I want to go to and you BETTER NOT EVEN TRY TO STOP ME, and I MEAN IT!” A direct quote from a parent of a child attending the SSPX.

Folks, this IS happening. When you teach children that they don’t have to consent to the authority of the Pope as their “HOLY FATHER”, then why do they have to consent to the authority of “just an ordinary earthy father”.

This is NOT what the Catholic Church is all about. They are all FOR families being together, NOT being torn apart because of “Church beliefs?”

This is getting soooooo Protestant!

WAKE UP PEOPLE YOU DO NOT REALIZE THE AFFECT YOU ARE HAVING ON YOUR CHILDREN.

And YES, you are right, there are WOLVES among the SHEEP.

Please quote five instances when a traditional Catholic on this sub-forum said that it is okay to disobey the pope.

 

[Auntie_M]

I cannot speak for others, but **while I do not like some of His Holiness’s disciplinary decisions, such as allowing female altar servers and not celebrating the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite publicly, I obey **him. I pray for him and write letters expressing my concerns in a respectful manner instead of, say, holding a sign on a street corner. While sometimes I am not as respectful as I should be, please do not take this to mean that all traditional Catholics are like this! At least in my limited experience, those who do not support schismatic groups, such as the SSPX, are very respectful of the pope. At my chapel, we have a picture of His Holiness in our community room. When someone put a SSPX magazine in the vestibule, the priest tore it up and told the person that there is no excuse for being schismatic and disobeying the pope. I have never heard our priest say anything bad about the pope.

When did you realize that the SSPX was Not what they said they were, and you made the decision to leave, and was it a pleasant experience? And,please, did you take that oath?

I have gone to TLM,s and (just my opinion) I really don’t see how this form can help converts understand the faith or what is going on? (and , incidently, the SSPX mass had a picture of JP11, in the FOYER, which I thought was quite odd as they talked AGAINST him so.)

As a convert myself, If the Latin mass is what I would have to go to, I probably would not have gone back. **I love the Catholic faith where I can UNDERSTAND it.**Maybe, one day, I will appreciate the TLM more, but as a convert, I can’t see that it helps you to understand your faith.

I know other new converts who are still learning (as I am) and they agree we NEED a mass that we all can understand.

The NO is “NOT EVIL”, nor is it an “abomination”. “Nor is Satan sitting in Peter’s chair” and ANYONE who says these things are NOT CATHOLIC…in any sense, modern nor traditional.

As far as girl altar servers…Why not, and correct me if I am wrong. The altar servers were (traditionally) boys because they could (sorta) get the “feel” of being a priest. And this could lead them to the priesthood.

Well, the way I see it. (and again, maybe I am wrong) Couldn’t this do the same with the girls, but instead of priest, become nuns? This COULD in theory lead these young people to either of the religious lives . Am I wrong?

 

[Saint_Gemma]

**When did you realize that the SSPX was Not what they said they were, and you made the decision to leave, and was it a pleasant experience? And,please, did you take that oath?
**
I have gone to TLM,s and (just my opinion) I really don’t see how this form can help converts understand the faith or what is going on? (and , incidently, the SSPX mass had a picture of JP11, in the FOYER, which I thought was quite odd as they talked AGAINST him so.)

As a convert myself, If the Latin mass is what I would have to go to, I probably would not have gone back. **I love the Catholic faith where I can UNDERSTAND it.**Maybe, one day, I will appreciate the TLM more, but as a convert, I can’t see that it helps you to understand your faith.

I know other new converts who are still learning (as I am) and they agree we NEED a mass that we all can understand.

The NO is “NOT EVIL”, nor is it an “abomination”. “Nor is Satan sitting in Peter’s chair” and ANYONE who says these things are NOT CATHOLIC…in any sense, modern nor traditional.

As far as girl altar servers…Why not, and correct me if I am wrong. The altar servers were (traditionally) boys because they could (sorta) get the “feel” of being a priest. And this could lead them to the priesthood.

Well, the way I see it. (and again, maybe I am wrong) Couldn’t this do the same with the girls, but instead of priest, become nuns? This COULD in theory lead these young people to either of the religious lives . Am I wrong?

As I said before, I never attended any SSPX Masses or meetings, so I never made an oath. Stopping my support of the SSPX was a very pleasant experience.

 

[Our_Refuge]

=Auntie M;3724653]I may be wrong but I always thought that “defending the faith”
was referring to "Catholic versus Protestant". Where there’s real problems. I just NEVER conceived that we would have to defend the faith with “Catholic versus Catholic”.

]

When a Catholic believes that one religion is as good as another or that it is easier to be saved as a protestant than as a Catholic or that the Jewish faith is salvic, then a Catholic must defend the faith against those who misrepresent Her teachings.

 

[Saint_Gemma]

When did you realize that the SSPX was Not what they said they were, and you made the decision to leave, and was it a pleasant experience? And,please, did you take that oath?

I have gone to TLM,s and (just my opinion) I really don’t see how this form can help converts understand the faith or what is going on? (and , incidently, the SSPX mass had a picture of JP11, in the FOYER, which I thought was quite odd as they talked AGAINST him so.)

As a convert myself, If the Latin mass is what I would have to go to, I probably would not have gone back. **I love the Catholic faith where I can UNDERSTAND it.**Maybe, one day, I will appreciate the TLM more, but as a convert, I can’t see that it helps you to understand your faith.

I know other new converts who are still learning (as I am) and they agree we NEED a mass that we all can understand.

The NO is “NOT EVIL”, nor is it an “abomination”. “Nor is Satan sitting in Peter’s chair” and ANYONE who says these things are NOT CATHOLIC…in any sense, modern nor traditional.

As far as girl altar servers…Why not, and correct me if I am wrong. The altar servers were (traditionally) boys because they could (sorta) get the “feel” of being a priest. And this could lead them to the priesthood.

Well, the way I see it. (and again, maybe I am wrong) Couldn’t this do the same with the girls, but instead of priest, become nuns? This COULD in theory lead these young people to either of the religious lives . Am I wrong?

I like to understand the Catholic Faith, too. I do it by attending a Mass where the prayers are hard to interpret in a heretical way, learning the most important parts of the Mass, using a missal and listening to the vernacular readings and homily.

 

[Auntie_M]

]

When a Catholic believes that one religion is as good as another or that it is easier to be saved as a protestant than as a Catholic or that the Jewish faith is salvic, then a Catholic must defend the faith against those who misrepresent Her teachings.

I understand about the “other” religions. But the Pope has declared that we have ONE mass with 2 different rites. (I hope I am saying this right)

So WHERE do we get off saying either one is wrong. We have the Pope’s declaration, don’t we? And I am sorry, but I have not heard anyone in the NO slinging accusations like the ones coming from the “Mass of all times” people. If it is the Mass of all Times" shouldn’t we also stay true to the **gospel of all times **in that we should love one another, NOT fight against them or speak evil of them.

 

[Auntie_M]

I like to understand the Catholic Faith, too. I do it by attending a Mass where the prayers are hard to interpret in a heretical way, learning the most important parts of the Mass, using a missal and listening to the vernacular readings and homily.

So you are saying that the NO is interpreted in an “heretical way”?
Please point these parts out to me. I am sincerely asking.

 

[Auntie_M]

Please quote five instances when a traditional Catholic on this sub-forum said that it is okay to disobey the pope.

ALL traditionalist were DISOBEYING the Pope when they “supported” others who were. (exSSPX). The Pope declared these people to be excommunicated. The Pope said NOT to be in communion with them as they were NOT in communion with Rome. Isn’t that disobeying if only in actions, not words. Actions DO speak louder than words. Also, post #1, 5, 16, 17, 18, 23, 29 45 all talk about the negative response to the NO. So aren’t they “supporting” the EF and in turn supporting the “groups” that are NOT in communion?

Disobeying is not always an OUT RIGHT VERBAL NO

 

[Auntie_M]

I just looked up EWTN on the net. I like to see what’s new, but instead I found this
www.networkgonewrong.com/

I am sure that alot of people don’t like EWTN but I do. I do resent allegations like this. This website is pushing a bookblasting EWTN and reading on down… guess what …PIUS X

I have found alot of the websites that blasts the NO are sponsored by the Society of Pius X. If you read in them just a little, you’ll find that to be true.

This society is attacking the Church at every angle. They are telling the people “Just enough” to get them to believe.

If all they wanted was the Latin Mass, They have that now.

So, WHY are they NOT coming into full communion? That can’t be their only agenda.

We had better be on our guard about this one…

 

[JReducation]

JR your concept of Church Militant and the concept from the Council of Trent are completely different.
From the Council of Trent

Your definition

I know you say you are a theologian but I will stay with the definition of Church Militant from the Council of Trent.

If you look at the definition of the Council of Trent is it referring to an inner war to overcome the sin that comes from different sources that assault us everyday.

If you look at my definition, I simplify it by saying the same thing, we work out our salvation through our battle for holiness.

There is not difference in content. The difference is in wording.

The point I was trying to make is that Militant has nothing to do with fighting other people, but with overcoming our sinful tendencies.

Also, I said that the word is used as it is used within the Romance Languages. The Council of Trent did write in Latin, which is the mother of Romance languages.

Therefore, the meaning of this word, Militant, in Latin, carries a very different meaning that it does in 2008 American English.

I hope this helps.

JR

 

[JReducation]

Another VERY VERY sad happening that alot of you may not be aware of.

It is being preached to “defend the Latin mass” AGAINST the Pope. REBEL…PROTEST…He’s not right!!! They are trying to take away our traditions, (Them against us attitudes)

But the younger ones are now starting to REBEL against their own parents. (not a new thing by no means) But a NEW thing in the Church, when they are learning THIS AT CHURCH.

“You don’t HAVE to listen to what the Pope says, we are defending our faith” But what is being defended when a child actually threatens a parent, that “I will go to the church that I want to go to and you BETTER NOT EVEN TRY TO STOP ME, and I MEAN IT!” A direct quote from a parent of a child attending the SSPX.

Folks, this IS happening. When you teach children that they don’t have to consent to the authority of the Pope as their “HOLY FATHER”, then why do they have to consent to the authority of “just an ordinary earthy father”.

This is NOT what the Catholic Church is all about. They are all FOR families being together, NOT being torn apart because of “Church beliefs?”

This is getting soooooo Protestant!

WAKE UP PEOPLE YOU DO NOT REALIZE THE AFFECT YOU ARE HAVING ON YOUR CHILDREN.

And YES, you are right, there are WOLVES among the SHEEP.

I agree with you that this not what the Catholic Church is about.

As a parent, this is where I would draw the line with my child. I am the adult and the child will do as I say. We can dialogue, but in the end, the parent makes the final call.

Even the Catholic Church abides by this rule. I recently met a young man on CAF who wants to become a Catholic. He approached several pastors who told him that they cannot receive him into the Catholic Church, not even into the RCIA because his parents will not consent. No parental consent, no admission into the Church. He has to wait until he’s 18.

The Church certainly acknowledges and respects the rights of parents.

JR

 

[JReducation]

I just looked up EWTN on the net. I like to see what’s new, but instead I found this
www.networkgonewrong.com/

I am sure that alot of people don’t like EWTN but I do. I do resent allegations like this. This website is pushing a bookblasting EWTN and reading on down… guess what …PIUS X

I have found alot of the websites that blasts the NO are sponsored by the Society of Pius X. If you read in them just a little, you’ll find that to be true.

This society is attacking the Church at every angle. They are telling the people “Just enough” to get them to believe.

If all they wanted was the Latin Mass, They have that now.

So, WHY are they NOT coming into full communion? That can’t be their only agenda.

We had better be on our guard about this one…

Help me out. I know this has nothing to do with the OP, but I just want to understand. I read this link and it makes some claims that are rubbish, for example that EWTN is liberal in its mass or some such nonsense. I have never seen a more traditional form of the Of in my life as the one they celebrate on EWTN.

That being said, they claim that Mother Angelica was “sacked”. Where did that nonsense come from? I understood that the nuns built a new monastery and moved, but that EWTN remains at the original location. It is also my understanding that Mother Angelica is about 80 years old. It would be logical that she retired to her contemplative life and not be working as hard as she did when the network opened.

I don’t see too much change in the programming, except the afternoon cartoons, which I enjoy. Can’t help it. I’m a kid inside.

What is the truth, if anyone knows?

JR