A silly simple question on sexual orientation (re gay marriage)

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As many of our founding fathers have written, this country was founded on Christian principles (I’m NOT saying to be a Christian nation).
According to the Treaty of Tripoli (ratified by the Senate in 1797 and signed by President Adams), " the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." (emphasis added)

See that part in bold? That deflates your entire argument that the country was founded on “Christian principles.”

It’s interesting to note that the Treaty of Tripoli caused absolutely zero stir in public opinion over the quoted passage – indicating how unremarkable it was to people’s minds to say that the USA is not founded in any sense on the Christian religion.
So which of it’s laws on moral issues do you want taken away - thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, etc.?
Those aren’t specifically Christian principles – those are laws found in almost every society since time began, including societies that predate Christianity and Judaism, which makes your claim that they’re “Christian” laws all the more ridiculous.
 
Here’s the thing, the Catholic Church is the oldest church in all of christianity, and as such, according to catholics, has the ultimate authority, because of the Holy Spirit, to interpret scripture. Assuming that everyone taking part in this thread knows the Church’s position on homosexuality I will refrain from posting scripture and the CCC. The bottom line is this, the same church fathers that taught in the real presence are the same fathers that the Church relies upon for it’s claim in apostolic succession, and therefore their perpetual inspiration by the Holy Spirit. Having said this, no matter how “good” the arguments for or against homosexuality may be, we must rely on God’s word and not what we feel or want in our hearts. As Fr. John Corapi once said “God’s ways are so far above our ways as the heaven’s are above the earth.”
God bless.
 
The issue is not what any church says. Many churches are totally ignoring the Bible and the standards written in there. Many people look for reasons to try and justify this filthy practice. So rather than trying to give a personal opinion, look at the Bible itself.
  1. God created us as male and female. That was his idea: Genesis 1:28
  2. 1 Corinthians 7:2-5 talks about marriage between male and female
  3. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 makes it very clear. Abstain from fornication, and most people think that this word is about male and female only. The actual greek word used included ALL FORMS of sexual perversion including homosexuality and lesbians and more.
  4. Romans 1:24-27 Apostle Paul (who was selected by Jesus himself as an Apostle) spoke about it in very clear terms. It is not approved.
  5. 1 Timothy 1:9-11 describes them as unruly and lawless.
  6. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 says that they will not inherit God’s Kingdom.
For those that try to say that Jesus did not use the word “homosexual” they are wrong. Jesus used the word fornication in Greek, which is much broader and included all forms of sexual perversion.

Also: God himself destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for its vile filth that consisted of homosexuality and more.

If people want to practice this filthy thing, then that is their choice, but the issue is:

DOES GOD ACCEPT IT? He has already told us his opinon, and its in the Bible for anyone to read. The answer is no, and if they go ahead and do it anyway, they they willl face the music, and they will have a reckoning with God himself when the time comes.

Its pointless trying to tickle your own ears and convince yourself that its ok, when its not ok according to God Almighty.

A true christian would not practice this, and would alter his/her lifestyle

BibleLoyal
 
The issue is not what any church says. Many churches are totally ignoring the Bible and the standards written in there.

On the contrary, when the church in question is the Catholic church it matters very much what it says as it uses scripture and the oral Traditions (Capital T) of the apostles and their successors and inspiration of the Holy Spirit to come to it’s conclusions about anything having to do with God. My intention is not to insult or turn this topic into a Catholic/Protestant debate but as we are on CAF and I am Catholic, you really can’t expect me to respond differently. God bless.
 
Josh316:

All ok. I was reading some of the previous posts, and wanted to mention several Bible texts that make it clear. I am also not protestant.

The Bible is so clear on this subject. There are so many scriptures that make it clear, and the Bible is meant for everyone to read, not just a select few.

Jesus Christ chose simple people to represent him, including fishermen, and the words in the Bible are written for everyone.

I know that some homosexuals try to claim they can practice their filth. The Bible says the opposite, and of course Almighty God will deal with them in due course.

He did in the past with Sodom and Gomorrah, and also the wicked angels that left heaven to have sexual relations with humans. He will do it again, and very soon

BibleLoyal
 
Josh316:

All ok. I was reading some of the previous posts, and wanted to mention several Bible texts that make it clear. I am also not protestant.

The Bible is so clear on this subject. There are so many scriptures that make it clear, and the Bible is meant for everyone to read, not just a select few.

Jesus Christ chose simple people to represent him, including fishermen, and the words in the Bible are written for everyone.

I know that some homosexuals try to claim they can practice their filth. The Bible says the opposite, and of course Almighty God will deal with them in due course.

He did in the past with Sodom and Gomorrah, and also the wicked angels that left heaven to have sexual relations with humans. He will do it again, and very soon

BibleLoyal
And their are many verses that make the Lord’s position quite clear. It’s only when they are taken out of context or misinterpreted that people may “claim” them to mean something different. Arguing religious vs secular point of views is one thing, but saying the Lord’s word (and as you have pointed out their are many on the subject) means something it does not is preposterous.
 
This message is fairly clear. If you are trying to say that the Bible supports homosexuality? Read the Bible verses, all of them. Its in simple English. Regards BibleLoyal

"The issue is not what any church says. Many churches are totally ignoring the Bible and the standards written in there. Many people look for reasons to try and justify this filthy practice. So rather than trying to give a personal opinion, look at the Bible itself.
  1. God created us as male and female. That was his idea: Genesis 1:28
  2. 1 Corinthians 7:2-5 talks about marriage between male and female
  3. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 makes it very clear. Abstain from fornication, and most people think that this word is about male and female only. The actual greek word used included ALL FORMS of sexual perversion including homosexuality and lesbians and more.
  4. Romans 1:24-27 Apostle Paul (who was selected by Jesus himself as an Apostle) spoke about it in very clear terms. It is not approved.
  5. 1 Timothy 1:9-11 describes them as unruly and lawless.
  6. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 says that they will not inherit God’s Kingdom.
For those that try to say that Jesus did not use the word “homosexual” they are wrong. Jesus used the word fornication in Greek, which is much broader and included all forms of sexual perversion.

Also: God himself destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for its vile filth that consisted of homosexuality and more.

If people want to practice this filthy thing, then that is their choice, but the issue is:

DOES GOD ACCEPT IT? He has already told us his opinon, and its in the Bible for anyone to read. The answer is no, and if they go ahead and do it anyway, they they willl face the music, and they will have a reckoning with God himself when the time comes.

Its pointless trying to tickle your own ears and convince yourself that its ok, when its not ok according to God Almighty.

A true christian would not practice this, and would alter his/her lifestyle"
 
This message is fairly clear. If you are trying to say that the Bible supports homosexuality? Read the Bible verses, all of them. Its in simple English. Regards BibleLoyal

"The issue is not what any church says. Many churches are totally ignoring the Bible and the standards written in there. Many people look for reasons to try and justify this filthy practice. So rather than trying to give a personal opinion, look at the Bible itself.
  1. God created us as male and female. That was his idea: Genesis 1:28
  2. 1 Corinthians 7:2-5 talks about marriage between male and female
  3. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 makes it very clear. Abstain from fornication, and most people think that this word is about male and female only. The actual greek word used included ALL FORMS of sexual perversion including homosexuality and lesbians and more.
  4. Romans 1:24-27 Apostle Paul (who was selected by Jesus himself as an Apostle) spoke about it in very clear terms. It is not approved.
  5. 1 Timothy 1:9-11 describes them as unruly and lawless.
  6. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 says that they will not inherit God’s Kingdom.
For those that try to say that Jesus did not use the word “homosexual” they are wrong. Jesus used the word fornication in Greek, which is much broader and included all forms of sexual perversion.

Also: God himself destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for its vile filth that consisted of homosexuality and more.

If people want to practice this filthy thing, then that is their choice, but the issue is:

DOES GOD ACCEPT IT? He has already told us his opinon, and its in the Bible for anyone to read. The answer is no, and if they go ahead and do it anyway, they they willl face the music, and they will have a reckoning with God himself when the time comes.

Its pointless trying to tickle your own ears and convince yourself that its ok, when its not ok according to God Almighty.

A true christian would not practice this, and would alter his/her lifestyle"
No, I agree with you 100%
 
“No, I agree with you 100%”

Sorry Josh316: I misread it. Its late here. Nice that we agreed on that! Regards

BibleLoyal
 
I honestly don’t know… I’m explicating my understanding of what the catechism says. Review my posts, review what maria_teresa writes and tell us: where are we going wrong?
The triple C is pretty clear in language. Your views from previous posts, whether intentional or inadvertently, suggests you seek an interpretation of the language which support your views. This means you seek an explanation of the words of the CCC which are beyond what is obvious in plain text, to me anyway. For that endeavour to succeed, the ‘obvious’ plaint language of the text must be rendered subjective, that is, to have several possible meanings as opposed to the ‘obvious.’
If your argument is merely that a plain reading of the catechism…
The CCC is ‘simple’ and require no interpretation. It is not Scriptures! The CCC requires UNDERSTANDING of what it illuminates, rather than imposing second guessing what it may or may not mean.

I know not what, specifically, *‘history of Christian moral and theological explication’ * you are appealing to or what aspect of that subject you seek to cite to justify a charge of naivety…but I do see simplicity and illumination in the language of the tripleC without wishing.
I will confess to having an ax to grind here. But it is because I find the logical conclusions of the catechism simply inexplicable…
Prove me wrong.
The fact you find the *logical conclusions of the catechism…INEXPLICABLE *should give rise to a clue, an indication, that you are at odds with the catechism! Therefore, the will and wish at play throughout the rest of your submissions, which fall short or away from the simple language I speak of, is yours to amend, not reinvent or seek novelty in the CCC.

Surely, you see that.

'Though my life is interpreting and illuminating proofs, I have no burden to entertain your hypothesis for it implies validation of your erroneous conclusions.
But let’s look at what the catechism says and what it doesn’t, yes? It uses the term homosexuality. It does not use the term homoaffection…
The catechism states that the homosexual inclination is objectively disordered.
The flaw is that they are homosexual. This is the logic of the catechism. That you may not like it is immaterial.

(CONTINUED…)
I blame myself for some of this drivel above. My apologies.

I used homo-affection to try and illustrate in a simplified manner a “difference” between the CCC’s meaning of homosexuality and what I perceived as the gist of your views. Somewhere earlier I (thought) you gave a scenario of homosexuals or two people sharing a love in everyway without the sex-bit or any thought of it…and asked what was the fault in that?! I was trying to simplify the answer to that view, on the whole, without the limitation of specificity.

In any case, I’ll try and point out in a nutshell what the CCC is addressing;

homosexuality (can only be specifically mean sex.)
inclination (can only be specifically mean sex )

the disorder;
  • found in the first because the word ‘homosexual’ identifies a specific sexual orientaion which is forbidden in Scriptures.
  • found in the second when associated to the first because the first has been forbidden.
human person;
  • made by and in the image of God and therefore possess divine dignity
  • can house the disorder in some, if not all, which disorders the disposition BUT NOT the divine dignity.
why and how;
  • read the rest of the CCC on the subject.
what to do;
  • what all are called to do, the same as it ever was!
:cool:
 
But the catechism isn’t so much talking about urges, it is talking about a quality of desire,
No. The catechism is talking about the intention, direction, object of that desire. Not the level of it!
Here’s an example: gay priests. Many of the more traditionally minded Romans on this board are insistent that homosexuals should not be allowed to be made priests (and this is in line with the Vatican’s pronouncements on those with deep-seated homosexual inclinations). And what is the logic of this prohibition? That the homosexual’s relationship with the masculine and the feminine is out of whack by virtue of their homosexuality, their broken relational capacity–therefore, they will not be able to relate appropriately to either men or women. They cannot image the church properly to the faithful, and they cannot image the masculinity of Christ at the altar correctly. All of these criticisms relate to a perception of the homosexual’s relational capacity as disordered, a perception that is undergirded and supported by the catechism.
As ‘adultery’ is completed with the lust, it isn’t hard to see the ‘mind of The Church’ toward the desired prohibition.

As we know, many homosexuals ARE and have been priests! Have they affected the validity of their dispensation of the Sacraments? I know they will answer to that question in time, but their FORM (male) is what is essential in the requirement.
A homosexual urge is one thing. Heterosexuals can have homosexual urges and deal with them or dismiss them. An urge us fleeting. A homosexual urge doesn’t mean your sexuality is compromised. Having a deep-seated homosexual inclination, however, is objectively disordered. The catechism does not understand this inclination as fleeting or passing. It understandings it as deep-seated, ongoing. Your talk about urges is immaterial.
I had an ‘urge’ for one of my teachers for several decades! Your dismissal is similar to your argument; unjustified.
You are confusing the homosocial with the homosexual and assuming that others make a similar confusion. I do not. These examples are immaterial. No one is denying that loving friendships exist, or that love is an important part (if not the sine qua non) of friendship.
No confusion. As there is no homoaffection, so too is there no such thing as homosocial.

There are only the accepted mores and the unacceptable.
I think you have a grave misunderstanding regarding Spartan military society. You’re correct that the Spartans did not base unit cohesion or formation on homosexual pairings (as opposed to the Sacred Band of Thebes, one of the fiercest fighting forces in the Greek world and based on the idea that an army of lovers would be the most courageous), but these pairings were, nonetheless, common. Philip II of Macedon described the Spartans as one of those peoples more “susceptible to this kind of love.” Philip II of Macedon was not a revisionist historian from the '90’s.
My childhood heroes (Spartans) were not homosexuals because I cannot accept it, but because there is not a shred of evidence that Sparta ‘accepted’ homosexuality. This obviously can change, but not on uncorroborated evidence.
This reminds me of Merton’s commentary on the mysticism of John of the Cross, and the idea that those who begin to experience visions and visitations often believe they are becoming angels or…supernatural. But, John reveals, they are actually just taking the first steps toward being truly human. Which is to say, I distrust religious sentiment that suggests that we are called to be anything other than truly human (and all that that means, particularly in light of the Incarnation).

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
You misunderstand me. In this realm, the Christian is required to be more than truly human! To control his nature! To say ‘No’ when natural tendencies scream to behave like natural animals toward creation. To care for others inspite of harm to self being a consequence. To run toward a fire to save a life instead of fleeing! To say no to homosexual inclinations when it feels natural…etc…etc

That… is… Super-natural.

:cool:
 
Deconi,

Thank you for joining this discussion. Your sentence shown below is exactly NOT what the Church sees as the MAJOR flaw. The defect lies not in the sex act, which is but an outward manifestation of the inner broken sexuality. The defective sexuality (homosexuality) prohibits, or makes impossible,
Perhaps I see further by several steps than you think.

The reason for the defect is because of the act, even though it is not made manifest and still intangible in form; but it is ‘complete.’

It is similar to adultery which is complete at ‘lusting’ after a woman. The difference is, adultery is a sin…whereas homosexual inclination is not, unless someone tells me they actually list that during confession.
It is unfortunate that the English language doesn’t have a better word that connotes an easier understanding of ‘sexuality’, which often, at least today, is immediately perceived as only sexual activity. Your term, Deconi, of homoAFFECTION is nowhere used in the CCC, and is a straw man used by you to derail the meaning of my original post. I’m assuming this is not in fact what you consciously meant to do. However, it is clear even from the use of your term homoAFFECTION, that you do not understand what the CCC is stating.

HomoAFFECTION is only possible for people that have a healthy sexuality, or this is at least what the CCC states implicitly. The CCC is very clear that there is a class of people it labels as Homosexual Persons. These Homosexual Persons “have deep-seated homosexual tendencies”, which means that the Homosexual Person has a defective sexuality; which renders them incapable of healthy homoAFFECTION.

The CCC is rather rigorous in its presentation of the Sixth Commandment. The logic flows in a sequential, ordered fashion. I have neither added nor subtracted any content or terms in my presentation. I ask you to take the time to read the CCC on the Sixth Commandment in its entirety. I would further ask that you pay special attention to the defintion of Sexuality in 2332.

Thank you again, Deconi, for your thoughts on this topic.

maria_teresa
See reply to Deo.

There is no Homosexual Person without the tendency for the tendency identifies the homosexuality of the person, so to speak. Affection has no tendency or inclination identity until it is homogenized.

:cool:
 
Grace & Peace!
wondering if the CCC is reflecting a move away from Scholasticism and toward a presentation reflecting Phenomenology? If so, this would explain much of what we’re discussing.
This is a good question. My initial impulse is to say, “yes.” But I’ve not thought through the consequences of a phenomenological reading of the catechism and whether or not those consequences would be in line with the catechism’s intentions. I’m suspicious of my “yes,” though, because it would be a genuine surprise to see the Roman Church employing 20th century philosophical notions (particularly in light of such things as the Oath Against Modernism, though phenomenology isn’t exactly modernist…).
From the above quote from the CCC, it appears that Chastity acts not as a primary, reparative virtue to Sexuality, but as a secondary, coalescing virtue to Sexuality. A defective Sexuality remains defective; notwithstanding the self-mastery exacted.
This is how it appears to me as well. Which is surprising because it implies a forensic view of grace and virtue more similar to classical Protestant thought and at a significant remove from classical Catholic thought regarding sin and grace. I’m thinking specifically of the snow-covered dunghill metaphor. It’s so surprising to me that it’s actually worrisome. It represents a significant shift in Catholic thought. I wonder that more Roman Catholics are not similarly concerned. Again, Catholic tradition has always taught that nature is wounded but not destroyed–that at the very least it is susceptible to grace. But here we find an example of Catholic teaching in which nature is portrayed as utterly corrupt and in need of a cosmetic or forensic fix in order to make it good. Again, this is quite a shift.
A Homosexual Person’s defective affectivity would imply that healthy friendship is never a real possibility. Is that what the CCC is implying, Deo Volente?
I believe so. The forensic fix of chastity will ensure the presence of a moderating decorum in the homosexual’s relationships, but will not heal the underlying disorder. The self-mastery the homosexual achieves by grace cannot include their sexuality which is irredeemably broken. If it were otherwise, the compilers of the catechism would have a moral obligation to say so, with a concomitant recommendation of reparative therapy for the homosexual. But the catechism makes no such recommendations (my suspicion being that the Roman Church is conscious of both the unreliability of reparative therapy and the dubious morality in which such therapy traffics but is unwilling to reach the conclusion toward which such consciousness tends–that a homosexual sexuality is capable of virtue).
The CCC’s presentation on the Sixth Commandment is ‘interesting’ to say the very least.
Indeed!

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!
The issue is not what any church says. Many churches are totally ignoring the Bible and the standards written in there. Many people look for reasons to try and justify this filthy practice. So rather than trying to give a personal opinion, look at the Bible itself.
Bibleloyal, I certainly respect your position. But as Josh has pointed out, it doesn’t tell the whole story.

Of all the things that the Bible *is, *it is most clearly and uniquely a record of the relationship between God and man by which the nature of both and the operation of grace can be discerned. There are many things, however, that the Bible is not and that it is, moreover, ill-suited to be: a science textbook, a history textbook, a book of instructions on how to live one’s life. If the Bible is to be a living witness of our relationship with God, and not a dead letter item or the object of moral fantisizing or nostalgia, we must interact with it, relate with it and to it. Tradition is in a similar position. Both, in other words, are authoritative, neither is an authority.

What is? The Church, of course. The Romans locate the authority of the Church in the teaching magisterium. Anglicans of a more catholic persuasion are more likely (possibly! we’re talking about Anglicanism after all) to locate it in the communion of believers, which authority is exercised and articulated by the local church in communion with the Bishop. In both cases, though, what the Church says is authoritative, like it or not. Our Lord gave to his Church the power to bind and loose. This power was exercised at the Jerusalem council described in Acts. It is a power exercised by the Church (regardless of what Church it is) when the Church decides what is or is not binding on the beliefs and behaviors of Christians. You may not agree with this model of authority. But the authority of which I speak is valid and licit. I don’t agree with everything that Rome articulates in her catechism, but I do not argue with the premise that the authority with which she articulates it is valid and licit. Many Romans, and many such as yourself, may have qualms about the authority of the Episcopal Church. You may not find it either valid or licit or compelling. That is immaterial to me. I, however, do find the authority of the Church to which I belong to be valid, licit, and compelling, and, moreover, I am bound to do so, for better or worse.

Also, your approach to the Bible seems to insist that it needs no interpreting, which again points to a model of authority which I do not share, but also seems to go against the witness of the Fathers. Origen wrote that scripture was like an ocean: there are those who are perfectly happy swim on the surface, but they will never now the riches contained in the depths unless they dive deeper. That diving implies relationship and interpretation.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
I like your chances, too. I like my chances in my committed heterosexual relationship, and I like the chances of my gay friends in their committed homosexual relationships.
How many people in homosexual relationships do you know who have actually remained with one partner for life? I’m betting not many, unless they are very young, or didn’t get into the lifestyle until later in life.

I know that they have good intentions - and everyone brings up the 35% of married heterosexuals who divorce and remarry - but if you wait ten years, everyone you know who is in a homosexual relationship right now, will have changed partners, or else will have left the lifestyle.

That’s one point. Another point is that homosexual relationships are not life giving. It’s not just the obvious fact that they can’t reproduce, although I think that’s more of a factor than anyone wants to admit, in the fact that they change partners so frequently, and in the fact that they don’t really complement each other’s gifts - they live a lot more like room mates than like husband and wife, even when they are “married” in some sense.
 
Grace & Peace!
Your views from previous posts, whether intentional or inadvertently, suggests you seek an interpretation of the language which support your views.
What view do you think I’m trying to support? I’m not trying to find support for my own beliefs regarding homosexuality in the catechism. I know I won’t find it there. Do I want the catechism to propagate a view regarding homosexuality which I find questionable? No, I don’t. But I’ve been explicating my understanding of what the catechism says, and what I find it says I find questionable. What view am I trying to support, then? If the catechism does not say what I believe it says, point out to me where I’m going wrong and we can take it from there. (To be fair you do this below. We’ll get to that.)
This means you seek an explanation of the words of the CCC which are beyond what is obvious in plain text, to me anyway. For that endeavour to succeed, the ‘obvious’ plaint language of the text must be rendered subjective, that is, to have several possible meanings as opposed to the ‘obvious.’
The reading of anything, Deconi, requires interpretation. That’s just the way we’re built. A “plain reading” is often just a refusal to go deeper for fear of what one might find there. The people who compiled the catechism know what words mean and how to use them. Understanding the catechism also means understanding why the words used were in fact the words used. It requires interpretation. It demands engagement with the text and a wrestling with meaning. You and I are both trying to avoid reading things into the text that are not there. That’s good. I’ve explained my reasoning regarding my conclusions, based on the language and logic of the catechism. You say my conclusions are wrong. I’ve asked you to show me where I’m going wrong, and have further requested that, if the practical consequences of both of our readings are identical (and I believe they are), that you show me how our conclusions are, in fact, different.
The CCC is ‘simple’ and require no interpretation. It is not Scriptures! The CCC requires UNDERSTANDING of what it illuminates, rather than imposing second guessing what it may or may not mean.
Ideas have consequences, Deconi. If the catechism says at one point that sexuality affects all aspects of the human person and at another states that homosexuality is a deep-seated inclination that is objectively disordered, it seems clear to me that the disorder lies in the sexuality of the homosexual person, which must mean that the catechism understands the whole human person of the homosexual to be compromised. Ideas have consequences. This logic seems very clear to me.
I know not what, specifically, *‘history of Christian moral and theological explication’ *you are appealing to or what aspect of that subject you seek to cite to justify a charge of naivety…but I do see simplicity and illumination in the language of the tripleC without wishing.
I was thinking, at the time, of the debates regarding the nature of Christ and how so much hinged on a single letter–the difference between homoousios and homoiousios–two very different words in the context of the debates. Arguing over a letter or a word in order tomore clearly articulate a greater understanding of what is believed is not unknown in Christian history or tradition. To me, appealing to plain readings of texts goes against this spirit of debate.
The fact you find the *logical conclusions of the catechism…INEXPLICABLE *should give rise to a clue, an indication, that you are at odds with the catechism!
Deconi, if you did not also find the logical conclusions I and others have drawn from the catechism inexplicable, we would not be having this discussion.

My basic attitude throughout this discussion has been, “It looks like the catechism says this very questionable thing regarding a homosexual’s personhood. Can the catechism really be saying that? I find it alarming.” You seem to say, “I find it alarming too. The catechism isn’t saying that.” To which I reply, “But given the ideas about sexuality and personhood that the catechism is expressing, that’s the only conclusion I can reach. Can you show me where my logic is going wrong?” To which you say," the catechism’s meaning is plain." I can explicate my understanding of the catechism from the catechism, but it seems like your understanding of the catechism arises from what you already believe the catechism to be saying. Therefore, appeals to the text can only be met with, “the meaning is plain.” Hrmm…

Again, to be fair, you have tried to explain your understanding below. And we’ll get to it.

(CONTINUED…)
 
(…CONTINUED…)
Somewhere earlier I (thought) you gave a scenario of homosexuals or two people sharing a love in everyway without the sex-bit or any thought of it…and asked what was the fault in that?! I was trying to simplify the answer to that view, on the whole, without the limitation of specificity.
The specificity you avoid, however, is the specificity this conversation needs. jmcrae earlier in this thread offered a sentiment along the lines of, “you don’t really think that all homosexuals want to do is cuddle on the couch.” Moving past the real cynicism of his sentiment, my question is, “would it be so awful if they did?” That requires a specific answer. Not a general answer such as, “men can be friends and can be really quite loving within the context of a friendship.”

I’ll break it down and try to be as clear as I can. This is what I believe the catechism is saying, and which I find questionable:

“Sexuality affects all aspects of the human person, particularly their affectivity. It is expressed most appropriately and clearly in the virtue of chastity, the highest expression of which is marriage between a man and a woman. Homosexuality refers to relations between men or women that experience sexual attraction for the the same sex. Homosexuality is disordered. The homosexual inclination can be deep-seated and represents an objective disorder. There is no expression of that inclination that is or can be construed to be moral. No good thing can come of a homosexual act or relationship. The homosexual’s affectivity is impaired. Homosexuals are called to chastity, which means, in addition to what it means for a person with properly order desires, that the homosexual must destroy in themselves any desire for romantic or intimate companionship even when such companionship would not include sexual congress.”

Here is a position I would find more acceptable:

“Sexuality affects all aspects of the human person, particularly their affectivity. It is expressed most appropriately and clearly in the virtue of chastity, the highest expression of which is marriage between a man and a woman. Homosexuality refers to relations between men or women that experience sexual attraction for the the same sex. Homosexuals are called to chastity which, as with anyone else, is a sign of the integration of the gift of human sexuality in the whole person. Homosexuality should not be seen as a burden or an affliction, but because we understand marriage between a man and woman to be the most appropriate context for sexual expression, homosexual sex cannot be condoned, in the same way that extra-marital sex cannot be condoned. Nonetheless, homosexuals should not be denied the opportunity to form loving and romantic relationships.”

I still would not necessarily agree with this position (for a couple reasons I can go into but it’s not exactly germaine here) but it is a position that I find reasonable and consistent given the catechism’s assumptions regarding the nature of marriage and chastity.

(…CONTINUED…)
 
(…CONTINUED & COMPLETED)
In any case, I’ll try and point out in a nutshell what the CCC is addressing;

I appreciate your effort to break down your understanding, here. But I don’t find it convincing.
Deconi;6929119:
homosexuality (can only be specifically mean sex.)
inclination (can only be specifically mean sex )
This is not quite the case. This is what the catechism says:

“Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex.”

“The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.”

You can see, then, that homosexuality describes a kind of relation (which I can only take to be a reference not to sex only, but to a way of relating, generally), an attraction, a tendency, and an inclination. Sex acts are not included in these ideas. The desire to perform an act, a way of relating, an attraction to a particular object of desire, a tendency to desire a particular object, and an inclination to a kind of relationship are all what are discussed here. They are all disordered, according to the catechism. They aren’t all technically sinful, necessarily, though.
the disorder;
  • found in the first because the word ‘homosexual’ identifies a specific sexual orientaion which is forbidden in Scriptures.
  • found in the second when associated to the first because the first has been forbidden.
The catechism does not use the term “sexual orientation” and understands Scriptural passages to refer to homosexual acts, not to homosexuality as it has defined it. ‘Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”’ The disorder lies in the deep-seated tendency which represents an objectively disordered inclination (see above). The acts, therefore, are necessarily depraved and disordered, too.
human person;
  • made by and in the image of God and therefore possess divine dignity
  • can house the disorder in some, if not all, which disorders the disposition BUT NOT the divine dignity.
From what we’ve discussed so far, I cannot see any other place that the disorder lies than in the sexuality itself, described thus by the catechism: “*Sexuality *affects all aspects of the human person in the unity of his body and soul. It especially concerns affectivity, the capacity to love and to procreate, and in a more general way the aptitude for forming bonds of communion with others.” The capacity for human wholeness that a homosexual has is diminished by virtue of their disorder, so too their ability to form bonds of communion with others. This seems clear given what the catechism says.

The catechism does not specifically say that homosexuals are less human than heterosexuals or possess less divine dignity. I’ve stated previously that it is not so much the case that a homosexual has less humanity, according to the catechism, but that the expression of their humanity must be recognized by them and others to be deficient, and they must therefore accept a limitation to their experience of human fullness.
why and how;
  • read the rest of the CCC on the subject.
Could you not be bothered to answer the why and how? Personally, we don’t need to go into it as the meat of our discussion is in the previous couple sections, but I’m just curious.
what to do;
  • what all are called to do, the same as it ever was!
Similar question here. Are you referring to the call to chastity? I’ve already gone into how the call to chastity is actually a different call for homosexuals and for those who have a properly ordered sexuality–that is, a single heterosexual may desire and pursue chaste romantic companionship, but a single homosexual’s desire for the same must be seen as disordered and therefore must be eradicated–in other words, they must seek to desire not to desire what their desiring capacity desires because all such desires will be inappropriate. Because a heterosexual man may desire a romantic relationship with a woman in either appropriate or inappropriate ways (the former are commendable and chaste, the latter are neither). But according to the catechism, there is no appropriate way for a homosexual man to desire a romantic relationship with another man.

However, the teaching that we can know a tree by its fruit seem to suggest that the catechism’s conclusion is incorrect and should be amended to suggest an understanding that there are, in fact, appropriate and inappropriate ways that a homosexual man (for instance) may desire a romantic relationship with another man. And the desire, being good, there should be a way to express it chastely–that is, chastity becomes a positive virtue that encourages human wholeness in the homosexual, and *not merely *a negative ideal, the pursuit of which represents a flight from what we may discover ourselves to be.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!
No. The catechism is talking about the intention, direction, object of that desire. Not the level of it!
I think you misread me. I didn’t say “quantity” of desire, but “quality.”
As we know, many homosexuals ARE and have been priests! Have they affected the validity of their dispensation of the Sacraments? I know they will answer to that question in time, but their FORM (male) is what is essential in the requirement.
They don’t have to wait to answer the question in time. Unless you subscribe to the Donatist heresy, the answer is that, because they are priests validly ordained, their sacraments are ex opere operato valid.
No confusion. As there is no homoaffection, so too is there no such thing as homosocial.

There are only the accepted mores and the unacceptable.
I suggest you consult a dictionary regarding the reality of the word “homosocial.” It exists, and I think you will find it helpful to the shaping of your arguments as it is more appropriate to use than homoaffection and encompasses precisely what I think you are trying to express by the latter term.

Regarding mores–when we start to talk about mores, we also start to talk about culture and culturally defined and/or intuited notions of normativity. That is nothing on which to base a living and responsive morality.
My childhood heroes (Spartans) were not homosexuals because I cannot accept it, but because there is not a shred of evidence that Sparta ‘accepted’ homosexuality. This obviously can change, but not on uncorroborated evidence.
There’s a lot we need to unpack here. Spartans were not universally homosexual in our understanding of the term because the term simply didn’t exist, nor would it be appropriate to say that they were all homosexuals even if their culture tolerated homosexual conduct (as it did–see Philip of Macedon’s quotation), or if a vast majority could have been proven to have been homosexual in the sense that we understand the term. That cultural expressions of homosexuality were commonplace in Greek society, including Sparta, is a well-documented fact. Xenophon speaks of it. His criticism of sexual relationships between soldiers only goes so far as to say that pairs of lovers should not form the basis of unit formation (against the example of the Sacred Band of Thebes).
You misunderstand me. In this realm, the Christian is required to be more than truly human! To control his nature! To say ‘No’ when natural tendencies scream to behave like natural animals toward creation. To care for others inspite of harm to self being a consequence. To run toward a fire to save a life instead of fleeing! To say no to homosexual inclinations when it feels natural…etc…etc

That… is… Super-natural.
Again, I don’t think we are called to be super-human. What we are controlling when we speak of controlling our natural impulses is not, in fact, our natural impulses. Our natural impulse, frustrated but not destroyed, is toward relationship with God, who perfects our humanity and divinizes it. We do not become less naturally human, but more and more human, with Christ revealing to us what the destiny of human nature actually looks like. Even in the beatific vision, we remain human.

The question being asked in this discussion is: is homosexual desire susceptible to grace–that is, is there an appropriate way to express it, or is it impermeable to grace, something from which no good may come, something that can never tend toward the good. And what are the consequences of our answers to this question on our understanding of the affectivity of the homosexual person?

My argument is not that homosexuality is natural in the sense that you are understanding that term, but only that homosexuality may in fact be seen to be productive of virtue and conducive to human wholeness.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
According to the Treaty of Tripoli (ratified by the Senate in 1797 and signed by President Adams), " the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." (emphasis added)

See that part in bold? That deflates your entire argument that the country was founded on “Christian principles.”
More quotes from John Adams: eadshome.com/JohnAdams.htm

The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.”
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]

“We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!”
[April 18, 1775, on the eve of the Revolutionary War after a British major ordered John Adams, John Hancock, and those with them to disperse in “the name of George the Sovereign King of England." ]

• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
[letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress]

“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” --October 11, 1798

“I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen.” December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson
 
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