A step toward war

[OneSheep]

I’m new to this forum, but I am interested in reactions to HR 1905, the Iran Threat Reduction Act, which is not being mentioned in the mainstream media I’ve seen.

This act apparently bars any US government official from contacting any Iranian government official, including any member of the Defense department or State dept. Of course, the more hawkish Israeli lobbyists are likely pushing for this, and it is “election season” so the money flows freely.

I am more than a little concerned about this. Congress is overwhelmingly in favor of this bill, as they always put huge support behind any bill that supports Israel, regardless of the behavior of the Israeli government’s actions against human rights, confiscation of land, etc. This thread is not about Israel’s right to do what they do, however, they are understandably justified in their own minds that what they do is right, as are the Palestinians.

Israel is a threat to Iran. No doubt, Israeli nuclear weapons are aimed squarely at population centers in Iran, and the Iranian leaders probably want a nuclear weapon as a deterrent (if nothing else), even though they say they don’t want to build one. In the past Iran has called for a nuclear-free zone in the Middle East, but it has fallen on deaf ears in the US. The “Iran threat”, as was the “Iraq threat”, is not a matter of US national security, it is a matter of Israeli security. Why do we keep putting our own soldiers in harms way?

It seems to me that the more Christian approach to the problem is to first forgive all those involved (assuming people resent one side or the other) and then to work towards reconciliation between the two nations. We cannot do this with this congressional act, it severely, in an unprecedented way, ties the hands of our executive branch. There is big money (the West Bank Real Estate lobby) pushing us into bombing Iran, and this is clearly a step in that direction.

Reactions?

 

[Tietjen]

I’m new to this forum, but I am interested in reactions to HR 1905, the Iran Threat Reduction Act, which is not being mentioned in the mainstream media I’ve seen.

This act apparently bars any US government official from contacting any Iranian government official, including any member of the Defense department or State dept. Of course, the more hawkish Israeli lobbyists are likely pushing for this, and it is “election season” so the money flows freely.

I am more than a little concerned about this. Congress is overwhelmingly in favor of this bill, as they always put huge support behind any bill that supports Israel, regardless of the behavior of the Israeli government’s actions against human rights, confiscation of land, etc. This thread is not about Israel’s right to do what they do, however, they are understandably justified in their own minds that what they do is right, as are the Palestinians.

Israel is a threat to Iran. No doubt, Israeli nuclear weapons are aimed squarely at population centers in Iran, and the Iranian leaders probably want a nuclear weapon as a deterrent (if nothing else), even though they say they don’t want to build one. In the past Iran has called for a nuclear-free zone in the Middle East, but it has fallen on deaf ears in the US. The “Iran threat”, as was the “Iraq threat”, is not a matter of US national security, it is a matter of Israeli security. Why do we keep putting our own soldiers in harms way?

It seems to me that the more Christian approach to the problem is to first forgive all those involved (assuming people resent one side or the other) and then to work towards reconciliation between the two nations. We cannot do this with this congressional act, it severely, in an unprecedented way, ties the hands of our executive branch. There is big money (the West Bank Real Estate lobby) pushing us into bombing Iran, and this is clearly a step in that direction.

Reactions?

I wouldn’t fear that while Mr. Obama is in the White House. That’s not to say that Israel won’t do it if they are provoked by a nation who has already made clear their position on Israel’s existence. My heart goes out to the Iranian people, but that government has got to go and we (the US under Mr. Obama) missed an important opportunity by refusing to support the Iranian people in their earlier uprising. Now the cards have all but been dealt and it’s time to play out the hand. I’m betting on Israel and her right to someday exist without the threat of an insane and hostile government who has made known their intent to remove the Israeli nation from the map.

 

[Dale_M]

Here is a recent news article discussing the Iran Threat Reduction Act.
businessweek.com/news/2011-11-09/u-s-house-panel-s-sanctions-bill-targets-iran-s-oil-sector.html

 

[Saburo]

It seems to me that the more Christian approach to the problem is to first forgive all those involved (assuming people resent one side or the other) and then to work towards reconciliation between the two nations.

The whole premise of your complaint reveals an extreme naivete about the history and situation in the Middle East and, for that matter, about how the U.S. Congress works. HR 1905 is a House resolution to increase sanctions against Iran. Sanctions, you seem to be unaware, are an attempt to avoid war when diplomacy has failed, which it has again and again. Furthermore, you cannot possibly know the popularity in Congress (as a whole) of a resolution which has not even been brought to a vote in the House and would ultimately face signature or rejection by a president who specifically ran on a pledge to engage in direct diplomatic talks with Iran - an effort that has failed miserably to the surprise of no one with any knowledge of the last 30 years.

Israel has never threatened Iran except to the extent that it has threatened to defend itself against attack. Does this require forgiveness? You cannot say that Israel has a history of aiming nuclear-tipped missiles at Iran, since it had no ability to aim a missile at anyone until about 2008 – years after Iran already had missiles and had begun violating the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (signatory 1968) by seeking to develop nuclear weapons. Until recently, Israel could only deliver a bomb by airplane, and airplanes are not aimed at anyone. In any case, the idea that Israel threatens Iran is silly. Iran has thirteen times the population of Israel. Iran’s standing forces are almost half the size of Israel’s entire population, and Iran’s arms industry is tremendous. The rest of the Middle East may loathe Israel, but they fear Iran, and they especially and properly fear a nuclear Iran.

It is likely that when nuclear exchanges begin, they will spread much in the way that that WWI spread from an isolated assassination, except that they will spread much more rapidly within the minutes following detection rather than the hours or days of reflection before conventional forces have historically been committed. The world is in a Mexican standoff. The last thing we need is to introduce an irrational madman with a 12th Iman end-of-the-world fantasy and a hatred of all things non-Shi’a Muslim. Iran is that madman.

Hitler could have been stopped in short order if he had been stopped early enough. What if he had nuclear missiles before he invaded Poland? Would dialogue make a difference given that it made no difference without the nukes? Some people are better forgiven after they are dead, and that includes the Iranian leadership. With any luck, they will die at the hands of Iranian citizens who are tired of sanctions and do not want war with anyone.

But let us examine your Chamberlain-like hands and knees approach to geopolitics in a practical light. Can I forgive someone for engaging a third party to threaten and attack you? I don’t seem to be in a position to do such a thing, as I am not the one being attacked. How can western Christians possibly forgive a bunch of radical Muslims for manipulating a neighboring country of mostly Muslims into threatening and repeatedly attacking a Jewish state for no reason other than their religion? If you don’t understand this question, then I suggest you are far from understanding the myriad forces at work in the Middle East and even further from being in a position to object to sanctions while decrying them as a step toward war. Perhaps you would rather wait for the flash and the sheet of glass that used to be the only democracy in the Middle East.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Israel is about the size of Rhode Island and has a very small population. Israel is only about 1% the size and wealth of its Arab and other neighbors … surrounded on three sides by hostile and oil-rich nations. And with the recent advances by the Muslim League, there is a unification of the countries from Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Gaza, and Turkey.

And yet, Israel is the villain and the biggest threat to peace and the instigator of war, according to some.

 

[Robert_Bay]

Important Forum Info - Read Before Posting

 

[scipio337]

The whole premise of your complaint reveals an extreme naivete about the history and situation in the Middle East and, for that matter, about how the U.S. Congress works. HR 1905 is a House resolution to increase sanctions against Iran. Sanctions, you seem to be unaware, are an attempt to avoid war when diplomacy has failed, which it has again and again. Furthermore, you cannot possibly know the popularity in Congress (as a whole) of a resolution which has not even been brought to a vote in the House and would ultimately face signature or rejection by a president who specifically ran on a pledge to engage in direct diplomatic talks with Iran - an effort that has failed miserably to the surprise of no one with any knowledge of the last 30 years.

Israel has never threatened Iran except to the extent that it has threatened to defend itself against attack. Does this require forgiveness? You cannot say that Israel has a history of aiming nuclear-tipped missiles at Iran, since it had no ability to aim a missile at anyone until about 2008 – years after Iran already had missiles and had begun violating the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (signatory 1968) by seeking to develop nuclear weapons. Until recently, Israel could only deliver a bomb by airplane, and airplanes are not aimed at anyone. In any case, the idea that Israel threatens Iran is silly. Iran has thirteen times the population of Israel. Iran’s standing forces are almost half the size of Israel’s entire population, and Iran’s arms industry is tremendous. The rest of the Middle East may loathe Israel, but they fear Iran, and they especially and properly fear a nuclear Iran.

It is likely that when nuclear exchanges begin, they will spread much in the way that that WWI spread from an isolated assassination, except that they will spread much more rapidly within the minutes following detection rather than the hours or days of reflection before conventional forces have historically been committed. The world is in a Mexican standoff. The last thing we need is to introduce an irrational madman with a 12th Iman end-of-the-world fantasy and a hatred of all things non-Shi’a Muslim. Iran is that madman.

Hitler could have been stopped in short order if he had been stopped early enough. What if he had nuclear missiles before he invaded Poland? Would dialogue make a difference given that it made no difference without the nukes? Some people are better forgiven after they are dead, and that includes the Iranian leadership. With any luck, they will die at the hands of Iranian citizens who are tired of sanctions and do not want war with anyone.

But let us examine your Chamberlain-like hands and knees approach to geopolitics in a practical light. Can I forgive someone for engaging a third party to threaten and attack you? I don’t seem to be in a position to do such a thing, as I am not the one being attacked. How can western Christians possibly forgive a bunch of radical Muslims for manipulating a neighboring country of mostly Muslims into threatening and repeatedly attacking a Jewish state for no reason other than their religion? If you don’t understand this question, then I suggest you are far from understanding the myriad forces at work in the Middle East and even further from being in a position to object to sanctions while decrying them as a step toward war. Perhaps you would rather wait for the flash and the sheet of glass that used to be the only democracy in the Middle East.

:clapping:

I’m usually suspicious whenever I see “The Israel lobby”. I smell an Alex Jones fan.

 

[SamH]

:clapping:

I’m usually suspicious whenever I see “The Israel lobby”. I smell an Alex Jones fan.

With good cause.

 

[OneSheep]

:clapping:

I’m usually suspicious whenever I see “The Israel lobby”. I smell an Alex Jones fan.

Actually, I don’t know who Alex Jones is. But I am a Stephen Zunes fan, and here is his article:

huffingtonpost.com/stephen-zunes/iran-threat-reduction-act-_b_1090132.html

I also apologize for the title on this thread, which should have instead read “the Iran Threat Reduction Act”. Oops, I have now read the rules. Actually, though, this thread is about our ability to continue diplomacy with Iran. I agree with posters who have said we(Obama et al) have failed miserably so far. Pressures within the administration, and AIPAC, and other West Bank Real Estate Lobbies, for their own understandable reasons, have hindered real diplomatic discussion from ever happening. This Act will simply close the door even more tightly.

Yes, we can forgive third parties, Muslims, clerics, jihadists, Israeli settlers, Hamas, and everyone else. It is what Jesus calls us to do. Once we do this, we can more easily move toward reconciliation. This part of what “forgiving our enemies” is about.

 

[OneSheep]

I wouldn’t fear that while Mr. Obama is in the White House. That’s not to say that Israel won’t do it if they are provoked by a nation who has already made clear their position on Israel’s existence. My heart goes out to the Iranian people, but that government has got to go and we (the US under Mr. Obama) missed an important opportunity by refusing to support the Iranian people in their earlier uprising. Now the cards have all but been dealt and it’s time to play out the hand. I’m betting on Israel and her right to someday exist without the threat of an insane and hostile government who has made known their intent to remove the Israeli nation from the map.

Obama did not seem to hesitate when it came to Libya, and it doesn’t take much for our population to support bombing another country “for their own good”. It only takes a media push, and they seem to stand ready and waiting for any reason to demonize Iran and its leadership. Many of the Iranian people have their own “hearts go out to” the people of Palestine, who every day see more of their own territory literally “removed from the map”. I know, people will argue that it is not their territory in the first place, but open minds will find that there are valid arguments on both sides, and a need for reconciliation. This Act by congress stifles such diplomacy in a new way.

Thanks for your post.

 

[scipio337]

Actually, I don’t know who Alex Jones is. But I am a Stephen Zunes fan, and here is his article:

huffingtonpost.com/stephen-zunes/iran-threat-reduction-act-_b_1090132.html

I also apologize for the title on this thread, which should have instead read “the Iran Threat Reduction Act”. Oops, I have now read the rules. Actually, though, this thread is about our ability to continue diplomacy with Iran. I agree with posters who have said we(Obama et al) have failed miserably so far. Pressures within the administration, and AIPAC, and other West Bank Real Estate Lobbies, for their own understandable reasons, have hindered real diplomatic discussion from ever happening. This Act will simply close the door even more tightly.

Yes, we can forgive third parties, Muslims, clerics, jihadists, Israeli settlers, Hamas, and everyone else. It is what Jesus calls us to do. Once we do this, we can more easily move toward reconciliation. This part of what “forgiving our enemies” is about.

Oooh, again with the perfidious Israeli Lobby! What is their lobby budget compared, to, the National Association of Realtors (who are also bent on World Domination™)? I suppose the proof on “AIPAC, and other West Bank Real Estate Lobbies” pressure will be forthcoming?

On what occasions has the US/Iran engaged in DIRECT negotiations? The proposed bill doesn’t change what has pretty much been US policy since 1979. It isn’t a “step towards war”. Its largely a symbolic call for tougher sanctions (the opposite of war), full of sound and fury, signifying…nothing.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Personally I believe Israel has been very patient with Iran. Considering Iran has threatened to wipe Israel off the map … what 2-3 times?

I doubt you’ll see that restraint with Iran once they actually have the warhead built.

As far as the USA and Jesus? Sounds to me like we need a new administration to even entertain a Christian based govenment. And wouldn’t that be a Judeo-Christian based society?

 

[SamH]

Obama did not seem to hesitate when it came to Libya, and it doesn’t take much for our population to support bombing another country “for their own good”. .

Really?

The Lybian civil war started in February 2011, Gaddafi launched a successfull counteroffensive on March 6th driving back reble forces to the point where is looked like the revolution had failed. Obama then waited for the United Nations Security Council to pass a resolution to impose a no-fly zone in Libyan airspace on March 17th. On March 19 French and Italian airforces began enforcing the no fly zone using NATO assets. Only then did the US get involved - after the leader of the free world Nicolas Sarkozy showed him the way.

 

[Seamus_L]

If any country in the Middle East is guilty of military aggression, it has been the State of Israel. In 1981 they bombed Iraq, and in 2007, Syria, not to mention there numerous incursions into Lebanon. Before the so called World Community demands that Iran should discontinue there alleged nuclear weapons program, they should be demanding that Israel shuts down it’s own nuclear facilities.

 

[scipio337]

If any country in the Middle East is guilty of military aggression, it has been the State of Israel. In 1981 they bombed Iraq, and in 2007, Syria, not to mention there numerous incursions into Lebanon. Before the so called World Community demands that Iran should discontinue there alleged nuclear weapons program, they should be demanding that Israel shuts down it’s own nuclear facilities.

“So called World Community” .

So, in your wise estimation, is Israel MORE military aggressive than the US, or is just the greatest in the Mid East? Or is it that Israel is MILITARILY aggressive, while the US is more generally so?

Your post in another thread had me confused.

I don’t see a nuclear Iran as being much different than any other country that has the bomb. We’ve already seen a nuclear Soviet Union and Red China, a nuclear North Korea, widely believed to be led by a mad man, a nuclear Pakistan, a country that may have radical Islamicists in high places, a nuclear Israel, the country that has violated the most UN resolutions, and a nuclear USA, the world’s most aggressive nation.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8581586&postcount=74

Given your well-noted disdain for Israel and the US, what is your solution to Iran’s nuclear program. Ignore it?

 

[Seamus_L]

Israel is certainly more aggressive with it’s immediate neighbors, then the US is (just ask any country they share a border with) but they don’t have bases all over the world, and aren’t in the habit of launching drone attacks in countries most Americans couldn’t find on a map.

 

[scipio337]

Israel is certainly more aggressive with it’s immediate neighbors, then the US is (just ask any country they share a border with) but they don’t have bases all over the world, and aren’t in the habit of launching drone attacks in countries most Americans couldn’t find on a map.

It was a rhetorical question, but thank you for the response.

A question: do you have any military experience?

I disagree with your assessment, but your US and Israel rants aside, what is your solution to Iran’s nuclear (or nuclear weapons) program?

 

[Seamus_L]

I’ve never been in the military.
Ideally, no one should have nuclear weapons, but I find it hypocritical that this is supposed to remain an exclusive club that desperately want's to keep out new members. Eventually the technology is going to become more commonplace than it is now. I can't see threatening to bomb every country that decides to develop nuclear weapons.

 

[SamH]

I’ve never been in the military.

            Ideally, no one should have nuclear weapons, but I find it hypocritical that this is supposed to remain an exclusive club that desperately want's to keep out new members. Eventually the technology is going to become more commonplace than it is now. I can't see threatening to bomb every country that decides to develop nuclear weapons.

So you refuse to answer the question about Iran’s nuclear program?

 

[Seamus_L]

Countries that have nuclear weapons (in my opinion) have no right to tell other countries that they cannot have them. That is my answer.