A step toward war

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Darryl1958 said:
If you have no problem living under Nazi rule fine, but if the Allies did not do what they did to win the war, if people had actually listened to myopic ideas of the cowards that begged for peace at all costs, such evil would have triumphed.

You have the freedom now because of these ‘murderers’, who the rest of us call heroes.

If this war was not won, then their would be Nazis in the Vatican.
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I don’t go for the end justifies the means type arguments. If you murder thousands of innocent children, then everything will be fine. Oh yeah? First of all the means is wrong. And the end did not turn out so good with millions of unborn children now being killed long after the end of the war.
 
louis91766 said:
I don’t go for the end justifies the means type arguments. If you murder thousands of innocent children, then everything will be fine. Oh yeah? First of all the means is wrong. And the end did not turn out so good with millions of unborn children now being killed long after the end of the war.
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It is just so cowardly and low and ungrateful for anyone in the West to be sitting around in all the comfort and the freedom that has been given to us, and call the people that actually had to go out and earn that freedom and that comfort murderers.

We never earned that freedom. We inherited it. Gratitude does not express itself by spitting on the memory of those good men that did what they had to do to not only earn our generations freedom, but freedom for the generations of the Axes powers that would be all too happy to have turned their people into psychopaths and drones.

A despicable generation that shows no gratitude for the heroism and the sacrifice of their elders, that disrespects them as a bunch of murderers and child killers, will show no respect for the next generation either.

Ratzinger was a member of the Hitler youth. That is who he would be today, that is who the Vatican would be, if the listleness and aimlessness of the OWS generation would have taken the high moral road of defecating in public, and not even bothered to take all measures to triumph over the evil that was rising in the middle of last century. Just as surely as the papacy became barbarian after the fall of Rome, it would be Nazi today, if not for the sacrifices that so many ungrateful and aimless Catholics now call murderers.
 
Darryl1958 said:
It is just so cowardly and low and ungrateful for anyone in the West to be sitting around in all the comfort and the freedom that has been given to us, and call the people that actually had to go out and earn that freedom and that comfort murderers.

We never earned that freedom. We inherited it. Gratitude does not express itself by spitting on the memory of those good men that did what they had to do to not only earn our generations freedom, but freedom for the generations of the Axes powers that would be all too happy to have turned their people into psychopaths and drones.

A despicable generation that shows no gratitude for the heroism and the sacrifice of their elders, that disrespects them as a bunch of murderers and child killers, will show no respect for the next generation either.

Ratzinger was a member of the Hitler youth. That is who he would be today, that is who the Vatican would be, if the listleness and aimlessness of the OWS generation would have taken the high moral road of defecating in public, and not even bothered to take all measures to triumph over the evil that was rising in the middle of last century. Just as surely as the papacy became barbarian after the fall of Rome, it would be Nazi today, if not for the sacrifices that so many ungrateful and aimless Catholics now call murderers.
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According to a papal declaration: "Any act of war aimed indiscriminately at the destruction of entire cities of extensive areas along with their population is a crime against God and man himself. It merits unequivocal and unhesitating condemnation.

The unique hazard of modern warfare consists in this: it provides those who possess modern scientific weapons with a kind of occasion for perpetrating just such abominations; moreover, through a certain inexorable chain of events, it can catapult men into the most atrocious decisions."
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html
The atomic bomb is indiscriminate in that it does not discriminate between young or old, male or female, civilian or soldier, etc.
 
louis91766 said:
According to wikipedia:
"On 1 October 1977, Naval Support Facility, Diego Garcia, was established as the senior US Navy command on the island. At the time the NAVCOMMSTA was the primary tenant, but as the new major facilities were completed, most notably the expanded anchorage and mooring area and the extended airfield, other tenants were commissioned.[23]

In 1980, the US Navy established the Near-Term Prepositioned Force of 16 ships. Then NTPF became the Afloat Prepositioning Force (AFP) and eventually Composite Squadron Two (COMPSRON 2) consisting of 20 deep-water pre-positioned logistics ships anchored in the lagoon.[24]

In 1981, the Naval Air Facility was commissioned. It was decommissioned in 1987 and its responsibilities returned to the NSF.[23]

In 1982, Construction activities were transferred from the SEABEES to a consortium of civilian contractors, and the majority of the projects were completed by 1988.[22] On 26 March 1982, Barbara Shuping and five other women were assigned to the NSF. Prior to this assignment, no women had lived on island since those on the plantation in 1971.[25]

In 1985, the new port facilities were completed, and the USS Saratoga (CV-60) was the first aircraft carrier to tie up.[26]

The Strategic Air Command began deploying Boeing B-52 Stratofortress bombers and aerial refueling aircraft to the newly completed airfield facilities in 1987.[27]

Following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in August 1990, three ships of COMPSRON 2 sortied, delivering a Marine Expeditionary Brigade to Saudi Arabia to defend that kingdom and ultimately liberate Kuwait from Iraqi occupation. Other COMPSRON 2 ships offloaded the munitions, bombs, and fuel on Diego Garcia that were required for the US bomber fleet that deployed to airfield. Subsequently, B-52G bombers flew more than 200 17-hour bombing missions over 44 days and dropped more than 800,000 short tons (730,000,000 kg) of bombs on Iraqi forces in Iraq and Kuwait. One of the B-52s crashed from mechanical failures just north of the island with the loss of three of its six-man crew.[27]

Beginning on 7 October 2001, the US again commenced military operations from Diego Garcia using B-1, B-2, and B-52 bombers to attack enemy targets in Afghanistan following the attacks on New York City and the Pentagon. A B-1 bomber was lost on 12 December 2001 to mechanical failures just after take off from the island, but the crew survived and was rescued by the USS Russell (DDG-59).[28] Combat operations resumed in the spring of 2003, with MPSRON TWO sortieing to the Persian Gulf for Operation Iraqi Freedom, and bombing operations began again, this time against Iraq.[29] Bomber operations ceased from Diego Garcia on 15 August 2006.[30]"
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Louis,

You promised to use the DoD report. NOT Wiki.

Remember, Wiki at most shows 208 bases. Not 1000.

You have an obligation to be consistent.
 
louis91766 said:
Give me a country and I will list the military installations there. A list of 975 is way too many to list here. Anyway, they are all given in the report I cited above.
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How many military installations are listed on the DoD report for Diego Garcia.
 
louis91766 said:
According to a papal declaration: "Any act of war aimed indiscriminately at the destruction of entire cities of extensive areas along with their population is a crime against God and man himself. It merits unequivocal and unhesitating condemnation.

The unique hazard of modern warfare consists in this: it provides those who possess modern scientific weapons with a kind of occasion for perpetrating just such abominations; moreover, through a certain inexorable chain of events, it can catapult men into the most atrocious decisions."
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html
The atomic bomb is indiscriminate in that it does not discriminate between young or old, male or female, civilian or soldier, etc.
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Good morning, Louis,

And, nuclear weapons have not since been deployed in the several wars since WWII.

But, nowadays, WMDs are not restricted to nuclear bombs: there are biological and chemical WMDs. It was Sadam Hussien, not the USofA, who deployed mustard gas against his own citizens, during his war against the Kurds in northern Iraq.

WWII is done and over. Nuclear weapons, in the context of this OP, are discussed as in Iran’s potential possession. For 56 years, the USofA has had nukes in our arsenal, and not used them. Many of us on this thread are convinced that if Iran gets nukes, they will use them on Israel and maybe the EU.

So, why don’t you leave WWII behind, come up to the present, and lambast Iran instead of the USofA?

God loves you,
Don
 
Darryl1958 said:
It is just so cowardly and low and ungrateful for anyone in the West to be sitting around in all the comfort and the freedom that has been given to us, and call the people that actually had to go out and earn that freedom and that comfort murderers.

We never earned that freedom. We inherited it. Gratitude does not express itself by spitting on the memory of those good men that did what they had to do to not only earn our generations freedom, but freedom for the generations of the Axes powers that would be all too happy to have turned their people into psychopaths and drones.

A despicable generation that shows no gratitude for the heroism and the sacrifice of their elders, that disrespects them as a bunch of murderers and child killers, will show no respect for the next generation either.

Ratzinger was a member of the Hitler youth. That is who he would be today, that is who the Vatican would be, if the listleness and aimlessness of the OWS generation would have taken the high moral road of defecating in public, and not even bothered to take all measures to triumph over the evil that was rising in the middle of last century. Just as surely as the papacy became barbarian after the fall of Rome, it would be Nazi today, if not for the sacrifices that so many ungrateful and aimless Catholics now call murderers.
Click to expand...
I am disgusted by those today who have no appreciation for what our parents and grandparents gave up to keep the world free. Would they simply watch a few episodes on the History Channel or Military Channel about those sacrifices they might realize their selfish and cowardly ways.

They cry for 100,000 killed in warfare bombing yet don’t shed a tear for 6,000,000 gassed. They weep for those who would cut a babies throat if said baby was not Japanese yet despise the 19 year-old American boy tortured and killed on the side of the road during the Batan Death March.:mad:
 
donsnow said:
Good morning, Louis,

And, nuclear weapons have not since been deployed in the several wars since WWII.

But, nowadays, WMDs are not restricted to nuclear bombs: there are biological and chemical WMDs. It was Sadam Hussien, not the USofA, who deployed mustard gas against his own citizens, during his war against the Kurds in northern Iraq.

WWII is done and over. Nuclear weapons, in the context of this OP, are discussed as in Iran’s potential possession. For 56 years, the USofA has had nukes in our arsenal, and not used them. Many of us on this thread are convinced that if Iran gets nukes, they will use them on Israel and maybe the EU.

So, why don’t you leave WWII behind, come up to the present, and lambast Iran instead of the USofA?

God loves you,
Don
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If it is the use of nuclear weapons that is what is truly hated, then a nuclear Iran is indeed a very great threat in that regard.
 
donsnow said:
So, why don’t you leave WWII behind, come up to the present, and lambast Iran instead of the USofA?
Click to expand...
We can lambast Iran for taking American hostages, but remember that in 1951, Dr. Mohammad Mosaddegh was elected prime minister by a parliamentary vote but he nationalised the oil industry. In response, in 1953 US President Dwight D. Eisenhower authorized Operation Ajax, which resulted in the arrest of Mosaddegh on 19 August 1953. According to the book by Stephen Kinzer: All the Shah’s Men. An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror, John Wiley and Sons, 2003, the coup was the first time the US had openly overthrown an elected, civilian government. Iranians have long memories.
Should the USA be lambasted for overthrowing a legitmately elected and popular government, or do you think it is OK for the USA to do such?
In any case, it is not just Iran which might have the capacity to use the atomic bomb. As time passes, many more rogue states or individuals may come to possess this or a similar weapon. And what could be their justification for using the A-Bomb? Well, to listen to some of the justifications given here, of dropping the A-bomb resulting in civilian casualties in Japan - it hastened the end of the war, it did away with Hitler, it stopped theNazis, etc. What is to prevent rogue or terrorist individuals from coming up with their own end justifies the means type of argument? The precedent has been set by the USA and it is not a good one.
 
iamrefreshed said:
I am disgusted by those today who have no appreciation for what our parents and grandparents gave up to keep the world free. Would they simply watch a few episodes on the History Channel or Military Channel about those sacrifices they might realize their selfish and cowardly ways.

They cry for 100,000 killed in warfare bombing yet don’t shed a tear for 6,000,000 gassed. They weep for those who would cut a babies throat if said baby was not Japanese yet despise the 19 year-old American boy tortured and killed on the side of the road during the Batan Death March.:mad:
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Thank you.
This is my exact sentiments too.
 
donsnow said:
Good morning, Louis,

And, nuclear weapons have not since been deployed in the several wars since WWII.

But, nowadays, WMDs are not restricted to nuclear bombs: there are biological and chemical WMDs. It was Sadam Hussien, not the USofA, who deployed mustard gas against his own citizens, during his war against the Kurds in northern Iraq.

WWII is done and over. Nuclear weapons, in the context of this OP, are discussed as in Iran’s potential possession. For 56 years, the USofA has had nukes in our arsenal, and not used them. Many of us on this thread are convinced that if Iran gets nukes, they will use them on Israel and maybe the EU.

So, why don’t you leave WWII behind, come up to the present, and lambast Iran instead of the USofA?

God loves you,
Don
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Kinda weird where this thread has gone. My reaction to first hearing (and seeing in photos) the killing of the Kurds by Saddam was to feel deep resentment and hatred toward him. But our God calls us to forgive, and I worked toward understanding Saddam and his motives, and key to his acts were his own blindness of the humanity of the Kurds, not unlike the blindness I had toward Saddam himself, Saddam saw the Kurds as an evil threat. Jesus’ contemporaries saw Him the same way.

Taking it to today, it certainly is easy to construe that Iran is a threat, and that some lambasting would be in order. I suggest that such lambasting doesn’t help. What I think would help is to forgive the Iranian leadership, that we take the first step that way and change the tone of the encounter. Let’s listen to their needs, and they will return in kind. Oh yes, it is far-fetched, but so is the Gospel. It is “loving our enemies”.
 
louis91766 said:
Not yet. But a bad precedent has been set.
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Good evening, louis,

You didn’t answer my question. Why don’t you leave WWII behind and come up to the present, and lambast Iran’s nuclear program, instead.

Because I’m here to tell you, it’ll be Iran, not a western power, who follows the Hiroshima and Nagasaki precedent.

God loves you,
Don
P.S. Either Iran or N. Korea.
 
louis91766 said:
We can lambast Iran for taking American hostages, but remember that in 1951, Dr. Mohammad Mosaddegh was elected prime minister by a parliamentary vote but he nationalised the oil industry. In response, in 1953 US President Dwight D. Eisenhower authorized Operation Ajax, which resulted in the arrest of Mosaddegh on 19 August 1953. According to the book by Stephen Kinzer: All the Shah’s Men. An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror, John Wiley and Sons, 2003, the coup was the first time the US had openly overthrown an elected, civilian government. Iranians have long memories.
Should the USA be lambasted for overthrowing a legitmately elected and popular government, or do you think it is OK for the USA to do such?
In any case, it is not just Iran which might have the capacity to use the atomic bomb. As time passes, many more rogue states or individuals may come to possess this or a similar weapon. And what could be their justification for using the A-Bomb? Well, to listen to some of the justifications given here, of dropping the A-bomb resulting in civilian casualties in Japan - it hastened the end of the war, it did away with Hitler, it stopped theNazis, etc. What is to prevent rogue or terrorist individuals from coming up with their own end justifies the means type of argument? The precedent has been set by the USA and it is not a good one.
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Hi, louis,

I agree that we were wrong to overthrow the duly elected government of Iran in 1953.

Justify Hiroshima and Nagasaki? You notice, I didn’t state the weapon. Because conventional incendiary bombs on Dresden, German and Tokyo, Japan took at least as many lives and destroyed far more property than either A-bomb. Why aren’t you lamenting them? All those children?
WWII was a total war, on all sides. When you accept the atrocity which is war, but then decry one act of war, that seems a double standard, to me.

As far as either a rogue nation, terrorist NGO or disgruntled individual building a nuke, they have only their hatred to motivate them. That’s why I pay so little attention to what those who hate America say. It’s their hatred speaking. Hatred is wrong.
And, all the suicide bombers, car bombers, truck bombers and people who plant IEDs are wrong. They’re either too proud or too hate filled to admit they should give up because we militarily outclass them. They simply don’t know when to stop. They are nowhere near, in the right.

Now, Iran is different. There’s a plus. Their government not only hates Israel and us for backing her, but also are dabbling with a Shia “End Times” scenario, which they want to make come true.
That’s more dangerous than any WMD.
Their Ayatollah already has claimed that their Twelveth Imam has arrived, but that he has been appointed to speak for him. So, religion has been harnessed to expedite their hatred. And, the misuse of religion is more deadly than WMDs.

You may be right, that someday someone will justify nuking Israel or Amer4ica. That’s a minor reason why, except for the defense of Israel, I want us to stay out of the Near, Middle and Far East. We have no other business in any part of Asia. The major reason I want us out of there is so that our troops are not caught in a seething maelstrom of Asian armies, when it hits the fan. It will hit the fan.

Does that surprise you?

God loves you,
Don
 
OneSheep said:
Kinda weird where this thread has gone. My reaction to first hearing (and seeing in photos) the killing of the Kurds by Saddam was to feel deep resentment and hatred toward him. But our God calls us to forgive, and I worked toward understanding Saddam and his motives, and key to his acts were his own blindness of the humanity of the Kurds, not unlike the blindness I had toward Saddam himself, Saddam saw the Kurds as an evil threat. Jesus’ contemporaries saw Him the same way.

Taking it to today, it certainly is easy to construe that Iran is a threat, and that some lambasting would be in order. I suggest that such lambasting doesn’t help. What I think would help is to forgive the Iranian leadership, that we take the first step that way and change the tone of the encounter. Let’s listen to their needs, and they will return in kind. Oh yes, it is far-fetched, but so is the Gospel. It is “loving our enemies”.
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Good evening, OneSheep,

I stand rebuked.

I will not argue against the word of God.

God loves you,
Don
 
louis91766 said:
I don’t see it listed on the DOD report.
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Louis,

One thing I have learned is that you absolutely cannot rely on the news media reports.

In the end, if you want accurate information, you need to dig it out yourself … that’s why I was pushing you to look it up.

One day I had to give some sworn testimony at a hearing. The next day I got blasted … front page of the newspaper … the data in the paper was not only incorrect, but also … there were NO REPORTERS at all in the hearing room or in the hallway … certainly not the by-line guys/gals. I knew everyone there. So, the newspaper story was a “plant” designed to embarrass me personally.

Another time, I was interviewed over the phone was a “reporter” for the Washington Post … well, in the newspaper the next day, they got just about every detail wrong. Unbelievable. Fortunately, my boss didn’t see the article and it faded after a while. [And “the reporter” … was not actually a reporter … it was a “stringer” who wouldn’t get paid unless she got the article submitted right away. So, there was no fact-checking. Nothing.]

Hope you get your CAF situation straightened out.

But one thing you really must do is your own detailed research … time consuming. But no substitute for it.

Suggestion: as soon as you are able, get in some foreign travel … no subsititute for walking the walk. The military is good for that. If you volunteer for overseas duty and offer to visit some of the not-so-great places, you can learn a LOT.
 
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