A World without Religion?

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cena said:
…but it isn’t Christians who started it in other places in the world
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I don’t think it’s valid to say ‘who started abortions’, Cena. They have been performed for many tens of thousands of years. I neither think that it is productive to talk about who’s fault it is (Christian Courts? Liberalism? Lack of contraception?).

The fact is undeniable: there are too many being performed. And the best way to reduce the number? Well, as trite as this sounds, simply don’t have one. Easy to say from the comfort of our couch as we type and read this, but a difficult decision for many women.

But…it does rile me a little to say that my lack of a belief in gods is somehow responsible for the problem when the overwhelming majority of abortions are carried out on Christian women. And, as we are on a Catholic forum and the fact that abortion is held to be a mortal sin, it rankles further that nearly one third of those women are Catholic.

Old Brassy is pointing at me shouting: There’s the culprit! when he is surrounded by members of his own faith who are perpetuating the problem. He thinks maybe I haven’t read the bible (perhaps because I am an atheist? He is very wrong) but there’s a verse in there relating to beams and motes. You’ll find it in Matthew.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
Well, of course I’ll see your Voltaire and raise you the millions of murders accomplished by atheist rulers in the 20th Century alone.

Voltaire never lived to see a world consumed by bloodshed as ours, mostly due not to Christians but to men who have no moral foundation in their lives because they don’t believe a Foundation even exists.
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The US is a Christian Nation. More so than any other modern westernised industrial state.

You are also the most violent. You come in at 101 in the list of safest countries (see previous post for the company you keep). You have an appalling abortion problem. You have one of the highest rates of violence. You incarcerate more people per head of population than anyone. You execute more people than almost anyone on the planet. Your murder rate is off the scale.

But do I use this to claim that Christianity is the cause of all this? No, I do not. For the simple reason that it is a trite argument. It is an argument that would get you dragged off the podium at a Secondary School debating competition.

You have an abortion problem DESPITE being Christian. You kill more of your own citizens per head of population EVEN THOUGH you are Christian. These problems are not caused by you following Christ. It has nothing to do with you being Catholic. You have these problems AND you are Christian nation, not BECAUSE of it.

Likewise, any country that you wish to declare being atheist has not gone down to tubes BECAUSE of that fact. If you wish to keep pushing this argument that a twelve year old would baulk at in possibly the hope that someone with the intellectual understanding of an eleven year old is reading it, then be my guest. Personally, I am up to the back teeth with it.
 
Bradski said:
You have an abortion problem DESPITE being Christian. You kill more of your own citizens per head of population EVEN THOUGH you are Christian. These problems are not caused by you following Christ. It has nothing to do with you being Catholic. You have these problems AND you are Christian nation, not BECAUSE of it.
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Well said. I would suggest to you that we have a problem because we have stepped away from our religion(s), not toward them, and also that some Christian denominations are very misguided. Many of those who identify as a religion do so the same way they say they are “Irish-American” or whatever - it’s a label with some nostalgic identification they don’t want to let go of, but they are hardly “practicing” or “practical”. For a variety of reasons - influence of vocal atheism and its success in both defining people’s religions for them (as opposed to the religion itself; some Christian denominations do this to others, as well), past Catholic Church scandals (maybe on-going), unpopular Church teachings people don’t bother to find out the reasoning behind, etc. If we were a practicing Christian nation, we would be faced with some very complicated decisions but if we followed our faiths at their common denominators, we and the world would be much better off.

The plus side is that people do identify with a religion and as it comes under attack, I think many feel personally under attack even though they are not active. What I hope is that this makes them go back and find out more about their Church (speaking Catholic here), what it teaches, and why, instead of listening to non-Catholics and believing what those people tell them. We are no question at a crossroads for religion (in general, and Catholicism in particular) abut I think it is also an opportunity from which it could actually emerge stronger.
 
I’m fairly certain that something that could be recognized as religion will always be part of society. The views/doctrine may not be those that we are familiar with, but I’m sure at the least an anthropologist would classify it as being some form of religion.

On a related note, from the BBC a few days ago

“Will Religion Ever Disappear” (text / audio )
 
ThinkingSapien said:
I’m fairly certain that something that could be recognized as religion will always be part of society. The views/doctrine may not be those that we are familiar with, but I’m sure at the least an anthropologist would classify it as being some form of religion.
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We should call religion morality and have a universal doctrine. But if its based on man its mutable and will corrupt. Thats about when the man who realized this issue simply said; “God said so” and he become a prophet of God. But where did he get the idea there was a God to begin with? I’m certain it wasn’t because he was afraid of the darkness and wilderness.
 
I’m going to summarize the next few pages of posts for anyone who wants an abridged version of this thread:

Christians: Atheism has a negative effect on society.

Atheists: No, not necessarily.

Christians: Well I have a long list of people who did terrible things and called themselves atheists.

Atheists: Of course, but being an atheist isn’t a sufficient condition for doing terrible things. If atheism is indeed the most rational position, which is the true debate anyway, it doesn’t matter how people react to it. The truth is the truth, regardless of people’s reactions.

Christians: Did I tell you about my list? Because I have a list, and I daresay I’ll be checking it twice.

🍿
 
Atheism has a negative effect on society.
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Whatever they did and believed from the very start, they simply had to do together thus faith thus religion. Even in its simple form man had to light that fire in the woods, as it was “good”. Surely the idea in the dark was “we are in this together” someone had to be responsible for the others and all to each other. About the same when he realized he could wash himself with the clean water he was drinking, “good”. He had to thank someone for the blessing, I’m sure it wasn’t a science book that lead to the revelation. That thought of God and giving thanks come early too!🙂
 
ThinkingSapien said:
I’m not sure it’s a good idea to conflate the two.
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you will know things you have never known before. Like God, you will be able to tell the difference between good and evil, to paraphrase badly.

good + bad/evil existed in some fashion always thus religion.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
. . . Richard Dawkins . . . Your thoughts?
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This is not meant to be uncharitable, but rather a heads-up to those who follow that path:

Richard Dawkins is the quintessential fool.
In the realm of ideas, a royal pretender wearing no clothes, having no shame, he parades the imbecility, which gives him social license to abuse and poke fun at the most pious.
He speaks nonsense and we cringe.

In this role, he performs a vital spiritual function of bringing the sublime into relief, contrasting it with the absurd to which he gives voice.
As a consequence, he prevents this dance, which is all about joy, from getting too serious, too boring, too mundane.

Becoming greater than himself, the Dawkins speaks to doubts that might cause trouble if we were to foster them within ourselves.
He can get away with it because he is a fool and cannot be held responsible for what he says.

His mythological counterpart is the trickster, who brings about change - a process of destruction and creation.
The world emerges new and more real from the ashes of what was a well-ordered, but routine, semi-conscious relationship with the truth.

Unfortunately for his particular character, the role is tragic. Fully believing in his folly, gives him a power he would otherwise not possess, but dooms him to the ridicule he directs towards those who seek the Sacred.
 
Bradski said:
Maybe you can educate us on this and point us to some information so we can all make some informed decisions. Whilst bearing in mind that the Supreme Court made it’s decision based on the rights to privacy, not on abortion statistics. Perhaps you were unaware of this.

Now, no redirection please, Brass. You said that atheists started abortion and were responsible for it. I’ve pointed out that it is legal in your country based on a decision made by seven Christians. If it was seven atheists, or if there were just one or two on the Court, then you might have a point. A very bad one, but a point nevertheless. I have also pointed out that the vast majority people having abortions in the US (and quite probably world wide) are Christians. And just about one third of those in the US are Catholic. Why doesn’t the church make it a rule that Catholics can’t have abortion? Or make it a mortal sin if they do.

And which atheists started abortion?

You are going to have to explain to me just what on earth you think is causing me difficulty. If you’d like to refute your earlier statement that the safest countries are Catholic, then let me know which ones. Or I’m going to put it down as you blowing smoke.
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Bernard Nathanson, a Jewish atheist was instrumental with Planned Parenthood in providing false information to the Supreme Court. He stated:

“I confess that I knew the figures were totally false, and I suppose the others did too if they stopped to think of it.”

The founder of Planned Parenthood was Margaret Sanger, and avowed atheist socialist and Eugenist who tried to prevent blacks from reproducing because they were supposedly little more than monkeys in her opinion. This is why Planned Parenthood puts their clinics in inner city areas and why black women make up only 13% of women that have abortions yet account for more than 40% of all abortions. the number is higher taking to account Hispanic black women who don’t identify as black. In fact in the inner city areas half of all black children conceived are killed.

Regarding the homicide statistic, I will gladly walk you through the calculations. First, can I assume you accept the biological definition of when a human life begins and also the definition of “homicide” per Merriam Webster? Finally, you do understand that abortion is considered homicide by the Catholic Church and is in the catechism.
 
Aloysium said:
In this role, he performs a vital spiritual function of bringing the sublime into relief, contrasting it with the absurd to which he gives voice.
As a consequence, he prevents this dance, which is all about joy, from getting too serious, too boring, too mundane.

Becoming greater than himself, the Dawkins speaks to doubts that might cause trouble if we were to foster them within ourselves.
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In other words, you believe Dawkins is a guinea pig on which not-so-pious ideas are tested so that Christians who play a different “role” (your term, not mine) needn’t get their hands dirty testing them for themselves.

How profoundly arrogant to imagine an all-powerful being caring so much about you, and so little for others, that he would sacrifice them just to keep you in pristine condition. :rolleyes:
 
ThinkingSapien said:
Totally not following you, that sounds like a non sequitur.
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Man is by nature a social animal, the social precedes the order of mans nature. He doesn’t come to social order by choice but by need. Is man even man without society? Anyway, whatever social paradigm mans culture may deem social by its own cultural norms are understood by right, wrong, good, bad etc. There’s no reason to believe a higher social order doesn’t exist unlike mans idea of perfection. I see no reason why these are not religions. Unless we admit a strict understanding of the definition. Apparently that further was understood through revelation.
 
Oreoracle said:
In other words, you believe Dawkins . . . :rolleyes:
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Thank you for telling me what I believe. There I was believing that I believe something completely different. :rolleyes:

I will try to expand on my comments.

Given the reality of God, Dawkins makes no sense to me.
The man appears to have no interest in subjecting himself to what is Divine truth.
He spews nonsense, probably like many others in a quest for honour.

While arrogance may be my middle name, in this particular case, I was reflecting what I see as happening in these threads and in the world.
The bottom line is that we are all called by God to fulfill His purposes.
How we do this is up to us - either directly in seeking Him and spreading His word or perhaps as a foil, challenging people to find truth rather than facile explanations.

We are all on the same journey. Do not be distracted. If you want to know God, you will know Him.
 
Bradski said:
The US is a Christian Nation. More so than any other modern westernised industrial state.

You are also the most violent. You come in at 101 in the list of safest countries (see previous post for the company you keep). You have an appalling abortion problem. You have one of the highest rates of violence. You incarcerate more people per head of population than anyone. You execute more people than almost anyone on the planet. Your murder rate is off the scale.

But do I use this to claim that Christianity is the cause of all this? No, I do not. For the simple reason that it is a trite argument. It is an argument that would get you dragged off the podium at a Secondary School debating competition.

You have an abortion problem DESPITE being Christian. You kill more of your own citizens per head of population EVEN THOUGH you are Christian. These problems are not caused by you following Christ. It has nothing to do with you being Catholic. You have these problems AND you are Christian nation, not BECAUSE of it.

Likewise, any country that you wish to declare being atheist has not gone down to tubes BECAUSE of that fact. If you wish to keep pushing this argument that a twelve year old would baulk at in possibly the hope that someone with the intellectual understanding of an eleven year old is reading it, then be my guest. Personally, I am up to the back teeth with it.
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Well, it’s an argument that Voltaire used against atheism. Isn’t Voltaire your hero? 😃

Seriously, we are a dominantly Christian nation in decline. The influence of atheism is on the rise, and our society is showing the effects, with liberal social policies being adopted (such as same-sex marriage) that any child could rebut if he could just get an airing in the media.

Abortion is not the policy of the Catholic Church, but is the policy of the American sexularists, who are dominantly atheist/agnostic.

If you like atheism so much as a superior social ethic, why not go live among the atheistic North Koreans, worship their fat little Superman, and join them goose stepping their way to militaristic glory? :rolleyes:
 
People like Dawkins would no doubt rejoice in the disappearance of religion altogether, but if that should happen, they are left with two dilemmas:

1, How do they know the world would be a better place since the world has never been entirely without religion?
  1. How do they know the world would not be a truly horrible place since the world has never been without religion?
 
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