AA

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Been watching this discussion. Remember…

Take what you need and leave the rest.
How important is it?
Live and let live
Let go and let God.

The people who are so anti-AA have closed minds. They can’t understand how it helps. **They haven’t lived it. **So say a prayer and let it go.

🤷

Glad you got sober, and welcome home!

👍
Sorry, but this just makes me want to laugh.

No, I have not lived as “an alcoholic.” I drink socially. But I did live with someone that drank excessively for many many years. He stopped drinking and then he joined up with AA. Then left AA, but never drank excessively again. In fact, never drank again because he believed what AA told him about it.

I have been to AA meetings and Al-Anon meetings. I have read part of the Big Book and numerous books from Al-Anon. I have heard about the Al-Anon two step. (And heard many times that members of Al-Anon never really get better, that we will always be enablers. :rolleyes:)

After all of that? AA may help some people. But as something that really works? No, it isn’t.

If it really worked? People would join and stop drinking, and move on. Instead you have a handful of people that have joined and never leave, the old timers. ("Hi, my name is John and I have been sober for 34 years.) And you have a fresh crop of people coming in and out in a revolving door, going back and forth between drinking and not drinking. (Hi, my name is Jack and I stopped drinking today.)

Sorry, if you have a disease, see a doctor.
 
Of course. If I were to invent a support group that treats the spiritual malady as well as the physical addiction, then it would work and be fine.

It’s interesting that you’re so anti-AA. Why would I need to reinvent AA? Curious idea.

You seem to wrapped up in the language of disease or not, etc. Perhaps you’re just an unusually polite troll who likes to argue? Not sure.

But there is a simple fact that completely disarms what you are saying.

Huge numbers of alcoholics across the globe get and remain sober because of AA. It works - very, very well. It may not work for everyone, but what that really means in my experience is that not everyone is ready to give their will and lives over to the care of God (as they understand him). All of the folks I know who either didn’t get sober, or didn’t stay sober, have one thing in common. They either were never able to come to terms with their lack of real control over events in their lives, or they eventually thought they were “cured” and tried to start controlling everything again.

Some people can get and stay sober by just will. But those folks are probably not the garden variety alky.

Some people can get and stay sober purely through detox followed by intensive counseling. And maybe those numbers are as good or better than AA (I doubt it, but maybe).

What AA does, however, is fix both my behavioral problems and my spiritual problems.

Religion helps me develop my idea of God, my relationship with God.

AA helps me apply that relationship in my daily life in a very practical and healthy way.

You’d go broke trying to get a counselor to give you what AA provides for $1 a meeting (and only if you CHOOSE to give that $1).
Virus,

I am Catholic. I am a Physician. I am devoted to what is true. Are you not as well.

It is not true that Alcoholism is a disease. People should know.

There are many other places to go where problems can be addressed likd SMART where you are not diseased.

Then you can find all you need, spiritually and religion in the Church.

Have you read the Catechism in its entirety?
 
The fallacy in your argument is the faulty assumption that we’re discussing a habit.

Obsessions are not habits.

Even if you do not buy the “allergy” idea - some sort of chemical hook that makes a person’s reaction alcohol physiologically different between people - you would be mistaken (gravely so) if you think that a man drinking himself literally to death is simply unable to break a bad habit. It’s a mental obsession that requires a two pronged solution - abstinence tied with spiritual balance. Because (for whatever reason) alcoholics cannot take that first drink without grave consequences (if left to their own devices.)
Virtus,

The fallacy is that all you know is the disease model and if that is all you know then you can only speak disease. This entire post references your disease understanding.

Ask yourself. If Alcoholism is not a disease then what is it?

Read The Truth about Addiction. Read outside the box and compare and contrast.

I as a physician tell you it is habit. I as a Catholic tell you it is sin.

It is not a disease. I find it difficult to understand people that want to be diseased. Can you imagine any other situation when people could be liberated from being diseased and they resist that notion.

I am not diseased? You mean that I was never diseased? Oh Happy day…Woowhoo Yippeee…but oh no…

I am and will stay diseased…Huh?

Have you read the Catechism in its entirety?
 
Coptic Christian says: “You are corect I do not understand the people that drink lots. What I do understand is that I don’t have to understand this to understand that when someone wants to change habits how to do that. Understanding the why this happens has little to do with how to change the habit in my opinion.”

This quote indicates to me that Coptic Christian has never experienced addiction. Addicts don’t often want to change habits, they want to keep right on doing what they’re doing at the expense of everyone and everything around them. Is this a habit? Bad behavior? Willful misconduct? Or are they physiologically driven by euphoric recall or fear of physical pain and mental anguish? Addiction is a complex condition. I don’t know that I would call it a disease, but neither would I dismiss it as a habit.

Understanding the mechanics of addiction is key to changing the “habit”. No drunk, no junkie, has an on/off switch. Adding insult to injury is the fact that many young people who are engaging in typical, age-appropriate experimental drinking, are being labeled as alcoholics by their parents or friends and shoved into treatment centers where often there are no professionals on board. If they weren’t drunks when they went in they might be inspired to get drunk and stay drunk as soon as they get out.

This is not a simple problem, and it is being made worse by the recovery industry and the fact that we just do not know the most effective way to treat the alcoholic. There are treatment methodologies other than AA, but it is difficult to find meetings or practitioners in most towns across the U.S. Also, they have not been on the scene as long as AA and their statistics and self-evaluations are green. I maintain that it is impossible to measure success of AA or any other treatment method because alcoholics lie, manipulate, exaggerate. And there is always an agenda on the other end of the survey - nobody really knows how successful AA or any of the others might be. When I was treated in 1984 I was told that out of 1,000 people, 100 are alcoholic. 97% were the working stiff variety, and that 3-4 went to AA and only 2-3 remained sober. It’s just more complicated than it looks to the casual observer.
Silence,

Hopefully you will go back to the post on what works…it was provided by Reid Hester for you and others to see. While you may want to believe that there are no modalities that are good, better best, hopefully the lurkers will learn. Here is his CV

behaviortherapy.com/rkhvita.pdf

you can ponder whether or not he is addicted and compare and contrast that with your comments above.

AA/12 step/disease model paradigm stifles the mind…

Only an alcoholic can help an alcoholic…good luck with that…

Let me know when you get leprosy so you can be sent to a leper colony if any exist…rather than finding out how to get help.

Have you read the Catechism in its entirety?
 
Sorry, but this just makes me want to laugh.

No, I have not lived as “an alcoholic.” I drink socially. But I did live with someone that drank excessively for many many years. He stopped drinking and then he joined up with AA. Then left AA, but never drank excessively again. In fact, never drank again because he believed what AA told him about it.

I have been to AA meetings and Al-Anon meetings. I have read part of the Big Book and numerous books from Al-Anon. I have heard about the Al-Anon two step. (And heard many times that members of Al-Anon never really get better, that we will always be enablers. :rolleyes:)

After all of that? AA may help some people. But as something that really works? No, it isn’t.

If it really worked? People would join and stop drinking, and move on. Instead you have a handful of people that have joined and never leave, the old timers. ("Hi, my name is John and I have been sober for 34 years.) And you have a fresh crop of people coming in and out in a revolving door, going back and forth between drinking and not drinking. (Hi, my name is Jack and I stopped drinking today.)

Sorry, if you have a disease, see a doctor.
If it makes you want to laugh, you’ve never encountered a real alcoholic.

It really works, that’s why it exists and that’s why those old timers are there.

I said this morning when I woke up that I won’t drink today. I don’t know about tomorrow.
 
Silence,

Hopefully you will go back to the post on what works…it was provided by Reid Hester for you and others to see. While you may want to believe that there are no modalities that are good, better best, hopefully the lurkers will learn. Here is his CV

behaviortherapy.com/rkhvita.pdf

you can ponder whether or not he is addicted and compare and contrast that with your comments above.

AA/12 step/disease model paradigm stifles the mind…

Only an alcoholic can help an alcoholic…good luck with that…

Let me know when you get leprosy so you can be sent to a leper colony if any exist…rather than finding out how to get help.

Have you read the Catechism in its entirety?
First to answer your question, in its entirety I have not. Though I have made pretty good headway through it.

I find this to be off course.

The Catechism has a brief paragraph about alcohol abuse…which doesn’t really say anything good about it…anyway, what’s your point? What does the CCC have to do with AA.

Are you aware that there are a lot of priests sober through the program of AA. How do you reconcile all of this with them?
 
👍

This is basically what I believe about alcoholism.

It is part compulsion, part addiction (some people seem to be more susceptible than others), part bad habit (one can become an alcoholic-type drinker if conditions are right). It destroys lives - the alcoholic’s life and the people around him/her who are trying to control the compulsion and mop up the mess created by the alcoholic.

Alcoholics sometimes try for years, even decades, to stop or control their drinking. Like Bill W., they think if they can just do this or that, they will be able to break their compulsion, but it doesn’t work. They feel helpless and that drives them back to the alcohol. For whatever reason, admitting they are powerless in their efforts to stop drinking is a relief within their obsessed minds. It may be the first time they have heard THE TRUTH in a very long time. They truly do not know how to stop drinking, and everything they have tried, does not work, or does not work for long. They are disheartened, discouraged, and in despair. All the things they do while drinking are causing so many problems, yet they still crave that drink. And the next one, and the next. When they are sober, they regret what they do, and yet…the drink lures them back, time and time again.

The 12 steps are one plan for an alcoholic to get his/her life back on track, once the decision is made to stop drinking once and for all. But that decision can be so difficult, that the mind of an alcoholic can only face it one day at a time. It is overwhelming to think, “I can NEVER drink again.” It is not as overwhelming to think, “Right now, I am not going to drink.” And moment by moment, the “right nows” add up, and pretty soon the alcoholic can face the rest of the steps and cleaning up his life.

Sure, AA is “spiritual” and not religious. That way, even atheists can use the Steps with success. A lot of alcoholics and their families have had very negative experiences with God, with churches or organized religion. If AA or Al-Anon were a religious program, they’d have no options. Sure, some people come into an AA meeting angry at God for not keeping them from drinking. That’s OK. They can call God whatever they want. Those of us who know Him better are OK with that. I hear in Al-Anon meetings, “I had to find another God,” than the God of their childhood whom they interpret to be judging, condemning, etc. Well, it was always their own misunderstanding of who God is, but I just turn that over to God to sort out.

What thinking of alcoholism as a disease accomplishes is taking the responsibility for fixing them OFF of the shoulders of the people who loved them. The slogan is “I didn’t cause it, I can’t control it, and I can’t cure it.” The alcoholic must be the one who seeks and maintains his/her own sobriety, rather like how someone with diabetes must change their diet, control their blood sugars, and take care of themselves. Or someone with a known heart condition must cooperate with their doctors’ recommendations. Yet, the alcoholic can think of his problem as something he is not in total control of, because the reality is, he is not. The mental image I like to think of is someone dancing with a bear. Maybe AA turns the bear into a teddy bear, but you can’t just walk away when the bear’s claws are in your back.

I do know of people who have stopped drinking without any other support. So yes, it can be done. But those people are the exception and not the rule. Drinking is an isolating action to begin with, so breaking the isolation is itself very helpful, for the alcoholic and for their families and friends. Just knowing that you are NOT alone, that others have been where you are, and have made it out the other side, and lived to tell the tale (and with a great sense of humor!) gives one a great deal of hope.

I am very curious to know what CopticChristian would offer alcoholics and their families instead of AA. Would he give every alcoholic a copy of the Catechism? What does he suggest, especially considering most people cannot possibly afford one of the fancy detox centers? Extensive therapy? Weekly meetings with a priest? Daily Mass? Then what about the people who are Protestants, or Jews, or Satanists? Do they not deserve sobriety because they are not Catholic? What exactly would CopticChristian suggest that an alcoholic do, on a daily basis, to get and stay sober?
RJ,

I didn’t cause it, I can’t control it, I can’t cure it…rings true for those that accept the paradigm but it isn’t true.

When you decide to stop drinking that is the key. The decision is the motivation. Motivation causes change wherever you may be.

AA has a miserable success rate despite your belief that it helps millions. The lies are real. Avoiding 12 step coercion, More Revealed, 12 step horror stories, The diseasing of America, 12 step deprogramming…are all titles of books and topics that originated because of this lie of AA. AA has no bettter than a 5% success rate that is equivalent to spontaneus resolution. It is not better than doing nothing. You only know of what you know and what you have seen and what you are told. I posted what works and everyone clings to the “success”…it ranks 37/48 if you look back at the post.

What would I recommend? St. Gregory, St. Jude, Shick Shadel, Life Process, SMART…SOS…CBT… and if you look at the list of what works…use the top 5…

No one seems to want to answer if they have read the Catechism in its entirety?
 
If it makes you want to laugh, you’ve never encountered a real alcoholic.

It really works, that’s why it exists and that’s why those old timers are there.

I said this morning when I woke up that I won’t drink today. I don’t know about tomorrow.
Mgray,

These meetings are not the program. The program is the steps. The meetings are of differing types.

Regular
Newcomer
Speaker
Book Reading

possilby others.

The usual meeting has a reading and the key to the entire reading is continually hearing…

“If you want what we got”…sooner or later that rings in your head…what do they have? How do I get it? That is how people get hooked into AA.

Then there is the circle talking in round and this is the most unusual way of communicating invented. Sitting, listening to people talk…I used to do this and I used to do that and now I do this and with this program… ADVERTISING…

Usually the Old Timers sit with the new people…Looking for PIGEONS to sponsor…

Then everyone grabs hands says the Lord’s prayer and

It works if you work it…

The speaker meeting are all about what my life was before I did this program and how I do this program and what it does for me…more ADVERTISING

Reading the book is boring…but that is what gets people through meetings. When anyone talks and does not understand…they will be corrected…“It’s in the book” so that survival in the meetings and progress is redifining your thinking so that you can think like the book.

The program is running through the 12 steps…the entire process can take up to a year or more to figure out what it is you are doing and then…you have to sponsor someone and teach them this garbage…

If it ain’t true then anyone that becomes a sponsor has to teach a lie…
 
First to answer your question, in its entirety I have not. Though I have made pretty good headway through it.

I find this to be off course.

The Catechism has a brief paragraph about alcohol abuse…which doesn’t really say anything good about it…anyway, what’s your point? What does the CCC have to do with AA.

Are you aware that there are a lot of priests sober through the program of AA. How do you reconcile all of this with them?
Mgray,

Why is the Catechism off course? AA is about correcting your character defects is it not? You are supposed to claim powerlessness and you are to accept you are diseased. The Catechism has lots to do with it.

Priests are a different lot and I am not sure about this group.

Tell me what you know about grace and virtue.
 
Est,

Praise the Lord. You are without the sin of drunkeness. Alleluia. How you did it is your personal journey. What you attribute it to is yours to treasure. “Sobriety” means acceptance of the disease model/12 step paradigm and the fact that you are Catholic and faithful is more important in my mind that your fidelity to AA.

You infer I only know what I interpret and read. Ok.

I have seen too many “I used to be Catholic” or “I am a recovering Catholic and recovering Alcoholic” that causes me concern about what AA does for some, not all.

I want to tell you that you are not diseased. You never were diseased. You will never be diseased with alcohol or any other substance unless you have the consequences of alcohol like Pancreatitis and Cirhosis, then you will be diseased. You don’t have to wear your sin like the Scarlet Letter. I am in favor of not introducing yourself as an alcoholic rather introducing yourself as a child of God that is subject to sin like everyone else.

You are renouncing sin, just like our Baptismal vow, seeking salvation…glad your in the OHCAC:thumbsup:
Hello Coptic and EstesBob-

As I briefly noted earlier…I am sober 13 years and was helped by AA during the first few years.

Coptic…I appreciate your comments and agree with your asessment. It is 100% accurate to describe not just me, but a whole lot of AA types as well. Sometimes I am convinced that walking around with the scarlet letter was one of the worst mistakes I ever made. It has been used as a club to beat me with by others ever since.

Sin? Oh yeah it is…God be praised for helping me overcome it.
Disease? Who knows? I don’t think so but I’m glad to not drink anymore.

But Coptic. Bob is correct also. AA is really the ONLY thing that has helped or will help certain people. So God bless AA and the people they try to help.

My experience in AA never had any cult-like or overtly religious overtones…it was just a bunch of drunks sitting around yakking about their problems. It got old after awhile hearing all the same people talk about all the same things until one day a guy popped in and informed us that he had been sober 25 years and hadn’t been to a meeting in 15 years. He just was in the area and stopped in to say hello is all, but it opened my eyes a bit to the reality that I didn’t NEED to be there anymore…I could go out in the world and really handle it OK. So, I did!
 
Mgray,

Why is the Catechism off course? AA is about correcting your character defects is it not? You are supposed to claim powerlessness and you are to accept you are diseased. The Catechism has lots to do with it.

Priests are a different lot and I am not sure about this group.

Tell me what you know about grace and virtue.
Well, the Catechism has no opinion on AA. I know about grace and virtue, but what does theology (if thats where you’re going) have to do with AA?

Have you read the Big Book in its entirety?
 
Hello Coptic and EstesBob-

As I briefly noted earlier…I am sober 13 years and was helped by AA during the first few years.

Coptic…I appreciate your comments and agree with your asessment. It is 100% accurate to describe not just me, but a whole lot of AA types as well. Sometimes I am convinced that walking around with the scarlet letter was one of the worst mistakes I ever made. It has been used as a club to beat me with by others ever since.

Sin? Oh yeah it is…God be praised for helping me overcome it.
Disease? Who knows? I don’t think so but I’m glad to not drink anymore.
**
But Coptic. Bob is correct also. AA is really the ONLY thing that has helped or will help certain people. So God bless AA and the people they try to help.**

My experience in AA never had any cult-like or overtly religious overtones…it was just a bunch of drunks sitting around yakking about their problems. It got old after awhile hearing all the same people talk about all the same things until one day a guy popped in and informed us that he had been sober 25 years and hadn’t been to a meeting in 15 years. He just was in the area and stopped in to say hello is all, but it opened my eyes a bit to the reality that I didn’t NEED to be there anymore…I could go out in the world and really handle it OK. So, I did!
AOL,

Those people that find themselves at AA could be helped regardless of where they may be. SMART would have or could have helped as well.

If AA works then it works for those that think it works. It is a way, not the only way and the tragedy is that those with the hammer of AA think the world is a nail.
 
Well, the Catechism has no opinion on AA. I know about grace and virtue, but what does theology (if thats where you’re going) have to do with AA?

Have you read the Big Book in its entirety?
Mgray,

I have read the Big Book in its entirety including all editions. The First edition is different than later editions. The stories of people “recovered” were taken out of the first edition for later editions because then people would know you can be “cured”.

I have access to and so does anyone else Big Book online, Concordance of Big Book online, I have copies of Joe & Charley that I listened to several times to try and figure out the paradigm.

So, my answer was quick, to the point, will you do the same?

Tell me about Character Defects in the Big Book. What does the Big book say about Character defects and why are they important for the program?
 
If it makes you want to laugh, you’ve never encountered a real alcoholic.

It really works, that’s why it exists and that’s why those old timers are there.

I said this morning when I woke up that I won’t drink today. I don’t know about tomorrow.
It must be easy to brush off people that don’t agree with you, if all you have to say is : “well, you must not understand.”

So, have I encountered a real alcoholic? I guess that all depends on your definition of “an alcoholic.” My father drank every day. It got to the point that he drank all day long, morning to night. And of course, he called himself an alcoholic which is the golden egg in AA. So according to AA, he was a “real alcoholic.”

So, you don’t know if you will drink tomorrow? Don’t you claim to have a disease where drinking would be detrimental to your health? I have Celiac. Eating wheat is detrimental to my health. So, I don’t eat wheat. Ever. Not today. Not tomorrow. I haven’t intentionally eating wheat in 6 years. Because it is bad for me, because I have a disease.
 
AOL,

Those people that find themselves at AA could be helped regardless of where they may be. SMART would have or could have helped as well.

If AA works then it works for those that think it works. It is a way, not the only way and the tragedy is that those with the hammer of AA think the world is a nail.
Well…you got that right! They sure do think it is the only way.

It was the only way for me, but jeez I was desrerate and I didn’t take time to look around and research every available program. You think ‘drunk’ and you think ‘AA’. They go together the Pope & Rome.
 
Well…you got that right! They sure do think it is the only way.

It was the only way for me, but jeez I was desrerate and I didn’t take time to look around and research every available program. You think ‘drunk’ and you think ‘AA’. They go together the Pope & Rome.
AOL,

And as Catholics we are to be tranformed by the renewal of our minds…your mind seems to be renewed…

The 12 step religion of AA/disease model disciples resist mind renewal and transformation.

AA is a way not the only way…and soon people will not think drunk/AA they will think…problem/solutions…some better than others…it will take time as you can see by those that resist.
 
It must be easy to brush off people that don’t agree with you, if all you have to say is : “well, you must not understand.”

So, have I encountered a real alcoholic? I guess that all depends on your definition of “an alcoholic.” My father drank every day. It got to the point that he drank all day long, morning to night. And of course, he called himself an alcoholic which is the golden egg in AA. So according to AA, he was a “real alcoholic.”

So, you don’t know if you will drink tomorrow? Don’t you claim to have a disease where drinking would be detrimental to your health? I have Celiac. Eating wheat is detrimental to my health. So, I don’t eat wheat. Ever. Not today. Not tomorrow. I haven’t intentionally eating wheat in 6 years. Because it is bad for me, because I have a disease.
Thats a straw man fallacy right there…

Right, and so when you eat wheat do you black out, drive around intoxicated, beg people for money because you need more money to buy wheat, and completely wreck your family and home life?
 
AOL,

And as Catholics we are to be tranformed by the renewal of our minds…your mind seems to be renewed…

The 12 step religion of AA/disease model disciples resist mind renewal and transformation.

AA is a way not the only way…and soon people will not think drunk/AA they will think…problem/solutions…some better than others…it will take time as you can see by those that resist.
Your avatar is very suitable for you Coptic. (And that is of course, playful humor)
 
I do AA. I have a normal life. I love it and don’t care what you think.

God bless AA and the people in it. And God bless those that simply don’t understand it.
 
AOL,

And as Catholics we are to be tranformed by the renewal of our minds…your mind seems to be renewed…

The 12 step religion of AA/disease model disciples resist mind renewal and transformation.

AA is a way not the only way…and soon people will not think drunk/AA they will think…problem/solutions…some better than others…it will take time as you can see by those that resist.
Thats why I threw that in there…you don’t want to just have the association in peoples minds that AA is the only way! Like someday It’d be nice not to associate ‘womens health’ issues with ‘abortion’.

I was very blessed to have a strong catholic family up-bringing to guide my AA experience. It clicked immediately for me because I looked at it from a catholic / sin / healing perspective. I couldn’t wait for my mind to be renewed as it was very tiring having my mind work in the alcohol and drug induced fog.

In a way, I think of it in terms of “Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” and how that is now kind of a source of confusion and debate. In this analogy…AA needs to admit that salvation may very well ‘subsist’ in AA, but AA is not ‘Ecclesiam’.
 
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