AA

[Mgray82]

That is not true.

I have challenged you on this previously you just told me to go and read some court documents. How about you find the documents and show us where they say that AA IS A RELIGION. Not that it is “religous” (that is well known), but that it IS A RELIGION.

Please, exact quotes.

It’s not true whatsoever.

We’ve went through this and a whole host of other ridiculous claims in another thread surprisingly titled “AA”.

I’ll give credit to him…he does his homework and probably to some seems convincing.

To those who are in or have been in AA, his ideology is transparent.

 

[Mgray82]

Ed,

Your post demonstrates you swallowed and believe AA.

Or…that he’s alive and sober opposed to dead or institutionalized…

 

[estesbob]

Ed,

Your post demonstrates you swallowed and believe AA.

So did-and i have 28 years of sobriety because if it.

 

[CopticChristian]

Or…that he’s alive and sober opposed to dead or institutionalized…

Mgray,

Are you sure that if institutionalized you cannot post on CAF?

 

[CopticChristian]

It’s not true whatsoever.

We’ve went through this and a whole host of other ridiculous claims in another thread surprisingly titled “AA”.

I’ll give credit to him…he does his homework and probably to some seems convincing.

To those who are in or have been in AA, his ideology is transparent.

Mgray,

You be in denial. Facts are not transparent. An appeal to those in or those that have been in AA is tantamount to an appeal to what? You appeal to those that see your paradigm and accept the lie.

You accused me of lying when I said that the courts ruled AA was a religion and never recanted after I provided the proof and here I see you are recalcitrant in your position to the point of attacking the messenger.

The Supreme Court has not ruled AA a religion…**that’s a lie **(see 12 Traditions). AA makes it a point to establish the fact that they are not affiliated with any religion.

Calling me a liar borders on being uncharitable.

12 step religion/AA/=Disease model…Alcoholism is not now or ever been a disease…can you see through this?

There are many views of this and the disease model is just outright wrong based on faulty science and based on nothing more than a study that used questionaires.

I appeal to no one. I know what is and is not true. I need no poll. I need no support. It is what it is.

Black is black…I want my baby back…its grey its grey…since she went away…the lyrics are the lyrics…the song is the song…

You attack the messenger by saying my claims are rediculous, I am transparent, give me credit…in those posts you said this…

Alcoholism is a disease! 100%

I’m going to provide proof.

and

I’d like to also challenge your disease concept on alcoholism as opposed to the medical dictionary’s definition of it.

Please explain to me how alcoholism is not a disease so I can squash this argument as well…

Your proof was less than adequate and I suggest that as you plan to venture into the Church via RCIA… that you consider that when you honestly or dishonestly appraise the thoughts of another this is good or as vile as attacking them physically. You say you studied Aquinas…study what he says about someones good name…

 

[silenced]

Silence,

I like to think of myself as a guide and you are free to journey where you will. You do not have to experience AIDS to know you don’t want it, how to avoid it, and to recognize it. You don’t have to experience the world to know what you should and should not do. Your conclusion about what to think has been clouded by

Only an alcoholic can help an alcoholic…

Do you learn to swim from someone that drowned?

Do you learn Math from someone that cannot add or subtract?

You may want to venture into NLP where the basic tenet is this…

Books have been written on this by Robert Dilts…

The Strategies of Genius…

So it would make more sense for a drunk/addict to find someone that never drank or used drugs and study them and find out how to model them rather than someone that failed just like they did…

You are a guide to what?

Yes, we are all free to journey as we see fit. I have never said, written, or implied that only an alcoholic can help an alcoholic. But I do believe those who are not alcoholic should at least be trained in addiction and recovery. I don’t mean the eight hours devoted to it in medical school. I mean they should be devoted to the field as a specialty and be passionate champions for science and spirituality. And still I might not agree with what they have to say, if it is untrue or emanates from some sort of hidden agenda, like when some doctors are in bed with the pharmaceutical companies.

A psychotic man drowned a year and a half ago right down the road from me because the rescue teams were not trained in water rescue because of the budget cuts. They all lined up on the shore and watched this man die. Not one rescuer went into the water to help him. So, yes, I learned a lot about swimming that day just from watching a drowning man.

I don’t know if it is possible to learn math from someone who cannot add or subtract. I can say that I was married to a mathematics professor for eight years and noticed, in divorce proceedings, that he never learned to balance a check book. Math is not for everyone. Maybe math is not for anyone.

I have no idea what “NLP” is. Is there even a slight chance that it might be germane to the discussion?

 

[CopticChristian]

You are a guide to what?

Yes, we are all free to journey as we see fit. I have never said, written, or implied that only an alcoholic can help an alcoholic. But I do believe those who are not alcoholic should at least be trained in addiction and recovery. I don’t mean the eight hours devoted to it in medical school. I mean they should be devoted to the field as a specialty and be passionate champions for science and spirituality. And still I might not agree with what they have to say, if it is untrue or emanates from some sort of hidden agenda, like when some doctors are in bed with the pharmaceutical companies.

A psychotic man drowned a year and a half ago right down the road from me because the rescue teams were not trained in water rescue because of the budget cuts. They all lined up on the shore and watched this man die. Not one rescuer went into the water to help him. So, yes, I learned a lot about swimming that day just from watching a drowning man.

I don’t know if it is possible to learn math from someone who cannot add or subtract. I can say that I was married to a mathematics professor for eight years and noticed, in divorce proceedings, that he never learned to balance a check book. Math is not for everyone. Maybe math is not for anyone.

I have no idea what “NLP” is. Is there even a slight chance that it might be germane to the discussion?

Silence,

Sleeping with pharmaceutical companies? Not sure how that equates to much.

Hidden agenda. My agenda is truth in advertising and truth in understanding and providing a clear view of what will and won’t help. You are still free to choose. I believe that you should choose with full disclosure of what it is you are choosing.

Understanding how your mind works and how to make changes is more important than anyone issue such as you have identified ie addiction. Addicts just don’t know how to run their brain.

You probably are not aware of a program made available on the internet…

peele.net/treatment/index.php

I was fortunate to review and edit this program before it went live on the internet…it is a secular program without any religion that makes much more sense and is to the point.

NLP has to do with modeling excellence and Neurosemantics has to do with managing your state of mind and learning how to change the way you think. That is what all this stuff is about. There is a book on NLP and CBT if you are interested…it is an easy read and would be a help to anyone’s understanding…

Recall a prior post where I pointed out studies on what works…what I have proposed incorporates all of these as does the Peele program

Brief interventions
Motivational enhancement
Community Reinforcement
Self-change manual (Bibliotherapy)
Behavioral self-control training

 

[silenced]

The name is silenced. Not silence.

I did not say “sleeping with pharmaceutical companies”, I said “in bed with pharmaceutical companies”. You know this, yet you deliberately deflect with a false and mocking interpretation of what I’ve written. Your tactics are dishonest and sleazy but your attempts at putting words in my mouth are not enough to drive me away.

I do not disagree that people should choose after full disclosure. But if they do not, it is not your place to denigrate them.

Addicts know perfectly well how to “run their brain [sic]”. Their primary aim is to maintain a certain blood and brain level of whatever it is they are addicted to, and this is their greatest success: fulfilling their primary aim. Doesn’t make it good, doesn’t make it smart, but they are among the most efficient people I know when it comes to meeting or exceeding their chosen goal.

I am plenty aware of alternate modalities available: SMART, Women For Sobriety, Rational Recovery, etc. I happen to think Peele is a self-important windbag. I’m assuming you are still allowing that I’m entitled to my own opinion here?

Motivational enhancement? Yeah, if you’re headed to the Ram’s Head Inn or the Golden Horseshoe, or just Ed and Ned’s Liquor Store, motivation needs no enhancement.

“Modeling excellence”? Don’t make me laugh. You put a lowdown drunk in front of an individual “modeling excellence” and he could be off down the street in no time with the guy’s wallet and a new pair of $900 shoes. Oh, mercy, where to find him?? At the Golden Horseshoe, of course, drinks on the house.

Not everyone needs treatment that is centered on God. There are many, many agnostics and atheists out there who are suffering with substance abuse. The 12 Steps are not the answer for everybody. God is not the answer for everybody. Cold turkey is not the answer for everybody. I don’t bad-mouth modalities. I take issue with some of the people who promote them, but those are human failings. We each have our own path. I found mine.

As far as managing one’s state of mind, how would you recommend a co-morbid patient proceed? Is a bi-polar patient or a schizophrenic supposed to meditate away his malady? Which gets treated first: the malady or the addiction, and why?

Now, tell me what you know about AA.

 

[Cat]

When someone is sick with a disease that will surely kill them, their treatment becomes a form of “religion” to them, as the treatment is the main focus of their lives. All of their life becomes focused on complying with the treatment so that they can get better and live.

Think about someone with cancer. Although some cancer patients are still able to do a lot of normal activities and some appear to have nothing wrong, most cancer patients eliminate almost everything from their lives except their treatments and working hard to cure their bodies of the cancer. The treatments are often quite devastating and toxic, but the person endures in order to survive. In order to endure such treatments, they often have to rest a lot, eliminate most of their activities, and do many things that will help bring about their cure. This makes the treatment appear to be All-Encompassing in their lives, and in a way, it IS the center and main purpose of their lives–getting better.

It’s the same for any disease or injury. Everything in life is directed towards the all-important work of healing and surviving. The person thinks about little else except their disease and their treatment, and they often talk in glowing terms about their treatment and how it is helping them.

That’s what AA is–a treatment for curing a fatal disease.

The treatments that someone who is sick submits to may appear to be all-consuming and this may make them seem to be a “religion.” But it’s not a religion, it’s a treatment that requires them to buy totally into the treatment method. Those of us who are not suffering from their disease may think that the treatment has become “God” to them, but that’s just not true. God has provided them with their treatment, and they are attempting to comply with the treatment, and that means becoming totally committed to the treatment.

I believe that the Lord has given human beings medicine and science in order to help us to conquer disease and stave off death for as long as possible. While we are on this earth, we are part of the Church Militant, fighting for the Kingdom of God. The Lord Jesus stated that we need more workers for the harvest, so it would be wrong of us to deny ourselves a treatment that will help us to rid our bodies of a terminal disease.

Perhaps in the future, we will discover treatments that don’t take all of a persons’ time and energy. (Wouldn’t it be great if we could take a one-time “anti-alcoholism pill” and be instantly sober?!) But at this time, one of the treatment options for alcohol that seems to effective for many people is AA, and at this time, AA is a time-consuming, all-encompassing, life-altering treatment that requires a person to buy totally into it and give their lives and souls to it so that they can be healed.

I hope this post is helpful.

 

[Mgray82]

Coptic, would you tell someone with Down’s syndrome that they need to learn how to “run their brain”?

Kinda silly thing to say in my opinion…

Kinda like telling someone with same sex attraction the same thing. I’m not condoning the behavior…but most don’t want to be gay. That may be a little of topic but in terms of understanding a disorder in the context of someone “running their brain”, I think it’s a fair analogy.

 

[Andrew1980]

Coptic,

I get the impression that you don’t have a clue what you are talking about, but are stuck on your own personal pride in an attempt to “prove” that you are correct. It is clear that the Catholic church doesn’t have a problem with AA and doesn’t see it as a separate religion as they do with groups such as the Masons. In addition, no Catholic member of the group, as I know it believes confessing their sins at AA or anyother 12 step meeting helps them find forgiveness.

In my experience of working the 12 steps the steps are about one thing, letting go of our pride, accepting our internal brokeness, and placing our full lives and wills into the hands of God. This should be the goal for all of us. Our addictions, like our concupiscence, will always be a part of our lives on earth. Their is not a cure for our addiction. To escape our vices we must surrender our lives to Christ and build virtue.

I am thankful for, in my case SA, since it has helped me to discover and address several of my own other sins that previously I had been blind too.

Coptic, you may want to take an hour to prayerfully reflect on your pride and whether or not you are willing to accept if you are wrong. Seek Christ’s guidance in the matter. I will do the same. Sometimes its difficult for us to admit when we could be wrong. If nothing else fails, you should accept the Catholic Church’s position over your own. Surely, you can admit that the church is wiser than yourself, I know it is wiser than myself.

 

[CopticChristian]

When someone is sick with a disease that will surely kill them, their treatment becomes a form of “religion” to them, as the treatment is the main focus of their lives. All of their life becomes focused on complying with the treatment so that they can get better and live.

Think about someone with cancer. Although some cancer patients are still able to do a lot of normal activities and some appear to have nothing wrong, most cancer patients eliminate almost everything from their lives except their treatments and working hard to cure their bodies of the cancer. The treatments are often quite devastating and toxic, but the person endures in order to survive. In order to endure such treatments, they often have to rest a lot, eliminate most of their activities, and do many things that will help bring about their cure. This makes the treatment appear to be All-Encompassing in their lives, and in a way, it IS the center and main purpose of their lives–getting better.

It’s the same for any** disease** or injury. Everything in life is directed towards the all-important work of healing and surviving. The person thinks about little else except their disease and their treatment, and they often talk in glowing terms about their treatment and how it is helping them.

**That’s what AA is–a treatment for curing a fatal disease. **

The treatments that someone who is sick submits to may appear to be all-consuming and this may make them seem to be a “religion.” But it’s not a religion, it’s a treatment that requires them to buy totally into the treatment method. Those of us who are not suffering from their disease may think that the treatment has become “God” to them, but that’s just not true. God has provided them with their treatment, and they are attempting to comply with the treatment, and that means becoming totally committed to the treatment.

I believe that the Lord has given human beings medicine and** science **in order to help us to conquer disease and stave off death for as long as possible. While we are on this earth, we are part of the Church Militant, fighting for the Kingdom of God. The Lord Jesus stated that we need more workers for the harvest, so it would be wrong of us to deny ourselves a treatment that will help us to rid our bodies of a terminal disease.

Perhaps in the future, we will discover treatments that don’t take all of a persons’ time and energy. (Wouldn’t it be great if we could take a one-time “anti-alcoholism pill” and be instantly sober?!) But at this time, one of the treatment options for alcohol that** seems to effective for many people is AA, and at this time**, AA is a time-consuming, all-encompassing, life-altering treatment that requires a person to buy totally into it and give their lives and souls to it so that they can be healed.

I hope this post is helpful.

Cat,

Your sentiment is helpful in the sense that if it were a disease it would be true. The fact is that it is not and never was a disease, it was just declared to be a disease, and the treatment is not treatment. As a physician it is impossible to justify calling it a disease in spite of what is said.

The disease model. Note Model, is not universally accepted and there are better alternatives. You say "seems’ to work and in reality data shows that it ranks 37/48 as successful in approaches for a difficult problem, in other words there are 36 better ways. Data shows that the rate of success is no better than 5% or doing nothing. That is reality.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic, would you tell someone with Down’s syndrome that they need to learn how to “run their brain”?

Kinda silly thing to say in my opinion…

Kinda like telling someone with same sex attraction the same thing. I’m not condoning the behavior…but most don’t want to be gay. That may be a little of topic but in terms of understanding a disorder in the context of someone “running their brain”, I think it’s a fair analogy.

Mgray,

Downs syndrome are genetic. They are classified into 3 types…

untrainable
trainable
educable

It is a genetic problem based on known genetic abnormalities.

Alcoholism is not now or ever been a disease. It is not genetic. It is not transmitted generation to generation and those that drink could be Down’s syndrome however I cannot recall any studies on drinking in the Down syndrome children. A quick search for that information yielded this…

Alcohol Clin Exp Res. 1987 Feb;11(1):42-4.
Fetal alcohol syndrome associated with trisomy 21.
Bingol N, Fuchs M, Iosub S, Kumar S, Stone RK, Gromisch DS.

All study cases had chronic alcoholic mothers as well as maternal grandmothers, suggesting that there is an increased incidence of trisomy 21 in children of second generation of alcoholic mothers.

All women that are chronic alcoholic should be told that alcohol is a mutagen and that their children are at risk for down syndrome. The reverse would not be true because it would be difficult to know if a baby was trisomy prior to a time when drinking commenced. In other words the trisomy is not responsible for the mothers behavior.

What is silly is your refusal to acknowledge medical facts and medical reality.

What is also silly is your failure to recognize the brainwashing into the thinking that you have a disease that causes you to run your brain inconsistent with the world that would be consistent with cognitave dissonance. The brainwashing is learning to run your brain and deny reality.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic,

I get the** impression** that you don’t have a clue what you are talking about, but are stuck on your own personal pride in an attempt to “prove” that you are correct. It is clear that the Catholic church doesn’t have a problem with AA and doesn’t see it as a separate religion as they do with groups such as the Masons. In addition, **no Catholic member of the group, as I know it **believes confessing their sins at AA or anyother 12 step meeting helps them find forgiveness.

In my experience of working the 12 steps the steps are about one thing, letting go of our pride, accepting our internal brokeness, and placing our full lives and wills into the hands of God. This should be the goal for all of us. Our addictions, like our concupiscence, will always be a part of our lives on earth. Their is not a cure for our addiction. To escape our vices we must surrender our lives to Christ and build virtue.

I am thankful for, in my case SA, since it has helped me to discover and address several of my own other sins that previously I had been blind too.

Coptic, you may want to take an hour to prayerfully reflect on your pride and whether or not you are willing to accept if you are wrong. Seek Christ’s guidance in the matter. I will do the same. Sometimes its difficult for us to admit when we could be wrong. If nothing else fails, you should accept the Catholic Church’s position over your own. Surely, you can admit that the church is wiser than yourself, I know it is wiser than myself.

Andrew,

I take pride in truth. I take pride in knowing what is true. I take pride in researching fact and synthesizing information that is true. I believe that you are correct that pride demands prayer to know the truth.

Show me however where I am clueless.

Disease model=AA=12 step religion

simple math…equations. Where is this without clue?

You have knowledge of all Catholics that attend AA. How did you get this information?

Addiction has no cure when you believe it is a disease as brainwashed into the minds of those that accept the disease model.

Search for yourself…“incurable disease”…you won’t find addiction/alcholism or any such nonsense.

Pride can prevent you from seeking the truth.

Shick Shadel, St. Gregory, St. Jude, Baldwin Research, Stanton Peele Phd and Reid Hester seem to agree with me on this and you may want to do some research with or without pride as to what these groups think and believe and as nothing more than a representative of those that have this point of view…you believe I need prayer…I do…

The catechism asks us to think

We believe
We live
We model
We pray…

Prayer is needed to help us confirm what we believe, allows us to receive the grace and access the grace we need to live the sacramental life so that we can model Christ with our moral behavior and so that we can be Holy as our God is Holy…

I pray you know that I am forming my conscience as should you…and that the 10th commandment causes me to resist any attempt to believe or provide information that is not true…pride gets in the way of many that want to believe this or that…

It is a lie to believe that addiction is a disease unless you honestly say…

It is based on the disease model that is not based on scientific fact and it is not universally accepted.

2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.

2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.

2486 Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision. It contains the seed of discord and all consequent evils. Lying is destructive of society; it undermines trust among men and tears apart the fabric of social relationships.

2487 Every offense committed against justice and truth entails the duty of reparation, even if its author has been forgiven. When it is impossible publicly to make reparation for a wrong, it must be made secretly. If someone who has suffered harm cannot be directly compensated, he must be given moral satisfaction in the name of charity. This duty of reparation also concerns offenses against another’s reputation. This reparation, moral and sometimes material, must be evaluated in terms of the extent of the damage inflicted. It obliges in conscience.

 

[CopticChristian]

The name is silenced. Not silence.

I did not say “sleeping with pharmaceutical companies”, I said “in bed with pharmaceutical companies”. You know this, yet you deliberately deflect with a false and mocking interpretation of what I’ve written. Your tactics are dishonest and sleazy but your attempts at putting words in my mouth are not enough to drive me away.

I do not disagree that people should choose after full disclosure. But if they do not, it is not your place to denigrate them.

Addicts know perfectly well how to “run their brain [sic]”. Their primary aim is to maintain a certain blood and brain level of whatever it is they are addicted to, and this is their greatest success: fulfilling their primary aim. Doesn’t make it good, doesn’t make it smart, but they are among the most efficient people I know when it comes to meeting or exceeding their chosen goal.

I am plenty aware of alternate modalities available: SMART, Women For Sobriety, Rational Recovery, etc. I happen to think Peele is a self-important windbag. I’m assuming you are still allowing that I’m entitled to my own opinion here?

Motivational enhancement? Yeah, if you’re headed to the Ram’s Head Inn or the Golden Horseshoe, or just Ed and Ned’s Liquor Store, motivation needs no enhancement.

“Modeling excellence”? Don’t make me laugh. You put a lowdown drunk in front of an individual “modeling excellence” and he could be off down the street in no time with the guy’s wallet and a new pair of $900 shoes. Oh, mercy, where to find him?? At the Golden Horseshoe, of course, drinks on the house.

Not everyone needs treatment that is centered on God. There are many, many agnostics and atheists out there who are suffering with substance abuse. The 12 Steps are not the answer for everybody. God is not the answer for everybody. Cold turkey is not the answer for everybody. I don’t bad-mouth modalities. I take issue with some of the people who promote them, but those are human failings. We each have our own path. I found mine.

As far as managing one’s state of mind, how would you recommend a co-morbid patient proceed? Is a bi-polar patient or a schizophrenic supposed to meditate away his malady? Which gets treated first: the malady or the addiction, and why?

Now, tell me what you know about AA.

Silenced,

Put a low down drunk in front of

AA halls
SMART Recovery
Church
Rational Recovery
etc

you get the same results so what?

What do you want to know about AA?

Start with the history

Frank Buchman
Oxford Groupers
Moral Rearmament

I can reccomend many of the works written by these groups as I have read them, have you?

 

[estesbob]

From the AMA:

H-95.983 Drug Dependencies as Diseases
The AMA

1. endorses the proposition that drug dependencies, including alcoholism, are diseases and that their treatment is a
   legitimate part of medical practice, and
2. encourages physicians, other health professionals, medical and other health related organizations, and
   government and other policymakers to become more well informed about drug dependencies, and to base their
   policies and activities on the recognition that drug dependencies are, in fact, diseases. (Res. 113, A-87)

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=is%20alcoholism%20a%20disease&source=web&cd=19&ved=0CGkQFjAIOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ama-assn.org%2Fresources%2Fdoc%2Falcohol%2Falcoholism_treatable.pdf&ei=UvnNUK36CYrJqgHCpICQDg&usg=AFQjCNHJ4ELh91M6I3lNSFt-9m45XTRqNw&bvm=bv.1355325884,d.aWM

From the Mayo Clinic:

Alcoholism is a chronic and often progressive disease that includes problems controlling your drinking, being preoccupied with alcohol, continuing to use alcohol even when it causes problems, having to drink more to get the same effect (physical dependence), or having withdrawal symptoms when you rapidly decrease or stop drinking. If you have alcoholism, you can’t consistently predict how much you’ll drink, how long you’ll drink, or what consequences will occur from your drinking.

mayoclinic.com/health/alcoholism/DS00340

---

From the National institue of Health

Alcohol use disorders are medical conditions that doctors can diagnose when a patient’s drinking causes distress or harm. In the United States, about 18 million people have an alcohol use disorder, classified as either alcohol dependence—perhaps better known as alcoholism—or alcohol abuse.

Alcoholism, the more serious of the disorders, is a disease that includes symptoms such as:

Craving—A strong need, or urge, to drink.
Loss of control—Not being able to stop drinking once drinking has begun.
Physical dependence—Withdrawal symptoms, such as nausea, sweating, shakiness, and anxiety after stopping drinking.
Tolerance—The need to drink greater amounts of alcohol to feel the same effect.

niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders

Other sources:
Alcoholism is a chemical/biological disease that is primary, progressive, chronic and fatal. It is characterized by an obsession to drink that makes it impossible to predict when we will start drinking, and an allergy to alcohol, which makes it impossible to predict when we will stop drinking.

acbr.com/fas/Alcoholism–Defined%20&%20Explained.htm

 

[CopticChristian]

Cat,

Your sentiment is helpful in the sense that if it were a disease it would be true. The fact is that it is not and never was a disease, it was just declared to be a disease, and the treatment is not treatment. As a physician it is impossible to justify calling it a disease in spite of what is said.

The disease model. Note Model, is not universally accepted and there are better alternatives. You say "seems’ to work and in reality data shows that it ranks 37/48 as successful in approaches for a difficult problem, in other words there are 36 better ways. Data shows that the rate of success is no better than 5% or doing nothing. That is reality.

Cat,

Here is some information from the other end of the Spectrum…the new Obama plan will now pay for what is called Brief Intervention…that ranks up in one of the top 5 modalities to help people that drink cut back and prevent problems…while doing some online CME I did this program and provide it for two reasons…

Note that as a physician I am being taught/CME…BEHAVIOR…nowhere is there any mention of this horrible end spectrum DISEASE…because it is not a disease…it is behavior…what is the cause of abuse and dependance…the person consuming more…behavior…if it were a disease and those at risk could be identified, if it were a disease then this CME activity would have addressed it and it does not…

Reid Hester and Stanton Peele and others have routinely pointed out the effectiveness of Brief Interventions in decreasing alcohol consumption…at this end of the non-disease behavior…that can cause abuse or dependance…

What About Counseling Related to Alcohol Consumption?

In the US, 3 in 10 adults (18 years and older) drink at levels that elevate their risk for physical, mental health, and social problems – and of these, about 1 in 4 has alcohol abuse or dependence.[11] Studies, such as a meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials, found that patients that received brief alcohol interventions significantly reduced their alcohol consumption compared to controls at one-year follow-up.[12] Thus, briefly screening and providing information to patients regarding risky drinking is a vital first step for patients.

• The American College of Surgeons requires alcohol screening and brief counseling of all Level I trauma patients due to the value of screening and brief counseling for reducing alcohol consumption.[13]

• A Cochrane meta-analysis[14] concluded that brief alcohol interventions in general practice or an emergency setting "consistently produced reductions in alcohol consumption …the current literature had clear relevance to routine primary care…Brief interventions consistently reduced alcohol consumption with an average drop of four standard drinks per week."

• The USPSTF found that screening in primary care settings can accurately identify patients whose alcohol use places them at risk for increased morbidity and mortality.[3] The USPSTF also found that brief behavioral counseling with follow-up provides small to moderate reductions in alcohol consumption that are sustained for 6 to 12 months and longer. The USPSTF found some evidence of positive health outcomes 4 or more years post-intervention.

• Despite the aforementioned practice guidelines on screening and counseling, a recent study found that among adults 18-39 years of age who saw a physician in the previous year (67%), only 14% of those exceeding the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA) alcohol guidelines were asked and advised on risky drinking. In general, those aged 18-25 years were the least likely to be asked and advised, yet were the most likely to exceed drinking guidelines.[15]

Notice that exceding drinking guidelines is the issue…in other words some drink more than others and when you drink more than others you are at risk…for problems but not a disease…

 

[CopticChristian]

From the AMA:

H-95.983 Drug Dependencies as Diseases
The AMA

1. endorses the proposition that drug dependencies, including alcoholism, are diseases and that their treatment is a
   legitimate part of medical practice, and
2. encourages physicians, other health professionals, medical and other health related organizations, and
   government and other policymakers to become more well informed about drug dependencies, and to base their
   policies and activities on the recognition that drug dependencies are, in fact, diseases. (Res. 113, A-87)

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=is%20alcoholism%20a%20disease&source=web&cd=19&ved=0CGkQFjAIOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ama-assn.org%2Fresources%2Fdoc%2Falcohol%2Falcoholism_treatable.pdf&ei=UvnNUK36CYrJqgHCpICQDg&usg=AFQjCNHJ4ELh91M6I3lNSFt-9m45XTRqNw&bvm=bv.1355325884,d.aWM

From the Mayo Clinic:

Alcoholism is a chronic and often progressive disease that includes problems controlling your drinking, being preoccupied with alcohol, continuing to use alcohol even when it causes problems, having to drink more to get the same effect (physical dependence), or having withdrawal symptoms when you rapidly decrease or stop drinking. If you have alcoholism, you can’t consistently predict how much you’ll drink, how long you’ll drink, or what consequences will occur from your drinking.

mayoclinic.com/health/alcoholism/DS00340

---

From the National institue of Health

Alcohol use disorders are medical conditions that doctors can diagnose when a patient’s drinking causes distress or harm. In the United States, about 18 million people have an alcohol use disorder, classified as either alcohol dependence—perhaps better known as alcoholism—or alcohol abuse.

Alcoholism, the more serious of the disorders, is a disease that includes symptoms such as:

Craving—A strong need, or urge, to drink.
Loss of control—Not being able to stop drinking once drinking has begun.
Physical dependence—Withdrawal symptoms, such as nausea, sweating, shakiness, and anxiety after stopping drinking.
Tolerance—The need to drink greater amounts of alcohol to feel the same effect.

niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders

Other sources:
Alcoholism is a chemical/biological disease that is primary, progressive, chronic and fatal. It is characterized by an obsession to drink that makes it impossible to predict when we will start drinking, and an allergy to alcohol, which makes it impossible to predict when we will stop drinking.

acbr.com/fas/Alcoholism–Defined%20&%20Explained.htm

Est,

The AMA swallowed the Disease model hook line and sinker as do others. They represent less than 1/3 of physicians and many are students fresh out of school.

The AMA does not dictate any physicians thinking including mine. I have never and will never be a member because to me they are useless. Every year I get invitations to join, I get a pen, a journal and correction to my name and address…Whoo Hoo…

The APA says it is a disorder not a disease.

The APA/AMA have recently agreed that homosexuality is not a disorder and is normal. So I have no love for either. These are political. The endorsement by the AMA is tantamount to nothing…

Yes they endorse it but they have an agenda to make money in the rehab industry and no incentive to change it. You can believe the lie of disease of alcohol and the lie that homosexuality is not disordered as stated by the AMA.

So, now that you have all these groups are you willing to examine how they came to this conclusion and you believe it?

Have you looked at the so called research in coming to the conclusion that this not a disease is a disease?

Have you looked at the history of the APA/AMA taking the DSM apart and removing homosexuality?

One is a disease and the other is not, based on politics, not science.

So you buy and accept disease because a society says so…

Caveat Emptor.

The 6th point of Calvinism says that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon.

Mormons say the Church went Apostate.

The Westminster confession says they are the true Church.

Do you believe these statements as well?

 

[estesbob]

Est,

The AMA swallowed the Disease model hook line and sinker as do others. They represent less than 1/3 of physicians and many are students fresh out of school.

The AMA does not dictate any physicians thinking including mine. I have never and will never be a member because to me they are useless. Every year I get invitations to join, I get a pen, a journal and correction to my name and address…Whoo Hoo…

The APA says it is a disorder not a disease.

The APA/AMA have recently agreed that homosexuality is not a disorder and is normal. So I have no love for either. These are political. The endorsement by the AMA is tantamount to nothing…

Yes they endorse it but they have an agenda to make money in the rehab industry and no incentive to change it. You can believe the lie of disease of alcohol and the lie that homosexuality is not disordered as stated by the AMA.

So, now that you have all these groups are you willing to examine how they came to this conclusion and you believe it?

Have you looked at the so called research in coming to the conclusion that this not a disease is a disease?

Have you looked at the history of the APA/AMA taking the DSM apart and removing homosexuality?

One is a disease and the other is not, based on politics, not science.

So you buy and accept disease because a society says so…

Caveat Emptor.

The 6th point of Calvinism says that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon.

Mormons say the Church went Apostate.

The Westminster confession says they are the true Church.

Do you believe these statements as well?

So who should i trust? The AMA, The NIH and the Mayo Clinic or an anonymous internet poster who claims to be a physician but acknowledges he has no first hand experience with AA?

 

[CopticChristian]

So who should i trust? The AMA, The NIH and the Mayo Clinic or an anonymous internet poster who claims to be a physician but acknowledges he has no first hand experience with AA?

Est,

If someone told you that you had a disease and you believed it and it was no problem. If someone told you had a disease and someone said you should check into it then would you not check into it.

The societies can be trusted to the extent you want to trust them. No one I know takes these socieites as gospel. They are not the medical magesterium.

Look for yourself at what is out there. If you can come to a conclusion that there are many ways of looking at the same problem then you will find as

St. Gregory, St. Jude, Baldwin Research, Stanton Peele and others found that perhaps the notion of disease should be looked at as a model…It is a model.