AA

[Andrew1980]

christofirst;10138047:

Christ,

You may want to let your friends know that Courts have ruled that AA is a religion and so I would say AA is deceptive…your friends have found religion without knowing it.

Who cares what the courts say? They are not the authority on religion. The Vatican is. The courts ruled that abortion is okay, that pornography is free speech, and that slavery was acceptable until over-turned with an amendment. If the courts can tell me an unborn baby is not a human, why do I care if they say AA is or is not a religion?

 

[The_Bucket]

The chief thing that AA and other related groups for other addictions teach is that we must surrender ourselves and our addictions to God and we have to live one day at a time.

How is this in any way antithetical to what the Church teaches? If anything, the group I’m a part of has made me a better Catholic, even though I vehemently disagree with many others in the group who are “spiritual” or non-Christian, non-Catholic, etc. There are some atheists in there who are starting to ponder if there really is a God because of the “miracles” they’ve seen in their lives. If that’s the case, then good!

Christ Himself over and over again told us to not be anxious about the future and to live in the present. For there is no past or future for God; there is just the eternal present. So if we live in our shameful past or worry about the future, we’re not focused on God. He’s not there. Only we live in our past or our future. If, however, we focus on the present (one day at a time) we can meet God.

And the Church is all about surrendering ourselves to Christ and making our entire lives an offering to Him. So those are two pretty darn Catholic concepts if you ask me.

 

[CopticChristian]

This is absolutely ridiculous.

1. the Catechism (which you’ve read entirely, I haven’t yet) has no opinion or statement on every silly “religion” that pops up. If it did, it would be a much thicker book.
2. Comparing AA to Mormonism is a strawman fallacy yet again. Priests don’t go to the Mormon temple to get sober like they do with AA.
3. I went to AA a Protestant and am now entering the Catholic Church. Should I start addressing myself at meetings as a recovering Protestant? I’m a living testament that this statement is silly. People are going to leave or bash the Catholic Church for whatever reason they choose. AA has no opinion on that, you know that.

Mgray,

When you speak of “your program” you expect respect.

When you propose objection to anything that may be relevant you consider it “silly”.

Have you noticed this?

1. The Church is One Holy Apostolic and in that regard there are those that have apostolic succession and then there are ecclersial communities. Religions that do not have Christ as the central focus of their beliefs that include an organization without apostolic succession would be considered religous communities of non-catholic subsistence. There is cannon law concerning these. You can only be responsible for what you know and if you did not know AA was a religion with God absent Christ then how could you be responsible.

§1 It is not licit for the faithful by any manner to assist actively or have a part in the sacred [rites] of non-Catholics.

§2 Passive or merely material presence can be tolerated for the sake of honor or civil office, for grave reason approved by the bishop in case of doubt, at the funerals, weddings, and similar solemnities of non-Catholics, provided danger of perversion and scandal is absent (canon 1258, 1917 Code, emphasis added).

If you say that AA is Christ centered then why are you there? The only Christ centered religion is the OHCAC.

1. I cannot speak for what priests do however I aim to create a program that may spark the interest of the clergy and I will speak to my local Bishop when I have it all together.
2. Do you feel that you are a recovering Protestant? Catholics that profess to be Recovering Catholics in my experience are those that have lost their faith and embrace who knows what. You may choose to proclaim yourself a fulfilled Christian redeemed and hoping for salvation by the grace of God…that would be a testimony.

 

[CopticChristian]

B]I haven’t read up on many other forms of recovery,

Their is a lot of scientific data behind the disease model for addiction as well. Through our habitual sins we actually re-wire our brains to seek comfort in our addictions. For me, when I would get anxious, stressed, tired, hungry, angry, etc, my mind would seek out lust in some capacity to escape the situation. I still know today that I am not like a normal “luster” if their is such a thing. I am assuming that most people who make the sinful decision to lust after someone, won’t end up spending hours/days/weeks trying not to lust again. The pre-occupation and ritualization phase of addiction can be brutal for addicts. I am assuming that is what sets us apart from other members of society. For instance, back in my acting out days, there were several times that I would literally drive to a strip club, not go in, fight with myself about how wrong it was, drive back home, then back to the club, back home, back to the club, occasionally spending 4-5 hours in a vehical trying not to go into the club. Eventually, within a week, I would likely fall to the process of pre-occupation and ritualization. I’ve even dumpster dived to get my old porn out of a dumpster that I had pitched my porn in a few days earlier. i dug through other’s peoples trash, old food, banana peels, looking for porn. I don’t see how this is normal behavior. I know it isn’t. It doesn’t bother me in the least to know that I am addict, that my mind doesn’t respond to lust like most peoples. All I know is that to stay sober for me, means no allowing myself to lust at all. And it means working diligently towards a complete submittal of my life and will to Christ. Any “solution” that doesn’t lead towards that end conclusion is borderline worthless. **Afterall, what good is any suffering if it doesn’t lead us to Christ?/**QUOTE]

Andrew,

You propose no knowledge of recovery problems other than what you know and conclude that there is scientific data for the disease model. I would be happy to provide you links to this “science” so you can read for yourself the scant support for a theory that isn’t.

I agree with you 100%. Any method of resovling sin absent the call of God aided by grace so that by Fatih you can present yourself to God as a child you were meant to be through Christ in the unity of the Holy Spirit is lacking. What about those that don’t know that God is calling…are they left to the wayside? Do they not need help as well? That is why directing someone that isn’t ready to hear the call of God should know about SMART and other modalities that indeed have scientific evidential proof of results. Do you want to deny folks help if they seek help?

There are people that meet reguarly describing their inner circle behavior that want help and should get help but find it difficult with the steps and difficult to talk about sitting in front of a computer gratifying themselves while the world spins around without them. They need help too. These programs cause one to believe that they are their behavior and
SMART teaches that you are not your behavior.

If someone knew that their inner circle behavior was not who they are just something they do and knowing that resolving this doing could be done without having to forever and a day be identified by this what they do and they had a choice, would you deny them that choice…to be their behavior or to know that they behaved poorly and now can do better not forever stamped with a Scarlet Letter?

Why can’t they have all the help they need in other than a God centered program if they cannot hear the call of God?

 

[CopticChristian]

CopticChristian;10138054:

Who cares what the courts say? They are not the authority on religion. The Vatican is. The courts ruled that abortion is okay, that pornography is free speech, and that slavery was acceptable until over-turned with an amendment. If the courts can tell me an unborn baby is not a human, why do I care if they say AA is or is not a religion?

Andrew,

You don’t have to. If it looks like religion, smells like religion, sounds like religion and the only religion that can be shown to have the fullness of truth is the OHCAC, then why are you there?

 

[CopticChristian]

The chief thing that AA and other related groups for other addictions teach is that we must surrender ourselves and our addictions to God and we have to live one day at a time.
How is this in any way antithetical to what the Church teaches? If anything, the group I’m a part of has made me a better Catholic, even though I vehemently disagree with many others in the group who are “spiritual” or non-Christian, non-Catholic, etc. There are some atheists in there who are starting to ponder if there really is a God because of the “miracles” they’ve seen in their lives. If that’s the case, then good!

Christ Himself over and over again told us to not be anxious about the future and to live in the present. For there is no past or future for God; there is just the eternal present. So if we live in our shameful past or worry about the future, we’re not focused on God. He’s not there. Only we live in our past or our future. If, however, we focus on the present (one day at a time) we can meet God.

And the Church is all about surrendering ourselves to Christ and making our entire lives an offering to Him. So those are two pretty darn Catholic concepts if you ask me.

Bucket,

This surrender is only true for the 12 step religon of AA and the other modalities do not approach behavior this way. If surrender to Christ and God is all that is necessary then where do you find Christ and the grace you need?

 

[silenced]

CopticChristian;10138054:

Who cares what the courts say? They are not the authority on religion. The Vatican is. The courts ruled that abortion is okay, that pornography is free speech, and that slavery was acceptable until over-turned with an amendment. If the courts can tell me an unborn baby is not a human, why do I care if they say AA is or is not a religion?

The Vatican is the authority on Catholicism, not religion. This is a discussion on Alcoholics Anonymous, not abortion, not slavery, not pornography.

 

[silenced]

“I haven’t read up on many other forms of recovery, but I would be VERY leery about any recovery program that didn’t have at its final solution the need to turn your lives and wills over to God.”

Where, then, should the suffering atheist go? Or do they not figure into your equation if they do not believe in God, thereby being rendered ineligible for health, happiness, or even mere contentment?

 

[silenced]

Bucket,

This surrender is only true for the 12 step religon of AA and the other modalities do not approach behavior this way. If surrender to Christ and God is all that is necessary then where do you find Christ and the grace you need?

If you surrender to Christ it could be argued that you are surrendering to God, thereby making your statement redundant. Or has Catholicism changed so much in the last several decades that the components of the Holy Trinity are now seeking autonomy from each other?

 

[Andrew1980]

There are people that meet reguarly describing their inner circle behavior that want help and should get help but find it difficult with the steps and difficult to talk about sitting in front of a computer gratifying themselves while the world spins around without them. They need help too. Why can’t they have all the help they need in other than a God centered program if they cannot hear the call of God?

They can, who is stopping them? All I know is that the 12 Steps is definitely a great benefit for many people. Is it the only way to stop acting out compulsions? Of course not. No one claims that it is.

In my experience one of the great things about the 12 Steps is that it doesn’t let you take the easy way out, so to speak. To get recovery, you surrender yourself to God. These 12 steps work for alcohol, lust, overeating, etc, etc. If, for instance, your compulsion is eating, you may be able to do treatments of liposuction, stomach staples etc. All of these things are ways to “fix” your over eating problem to some extent, but they all leave the root cause in place. The root cause is the unmet need to surrender their lives to Christ. Without that step, they will never find true happiness or peace. Thus many other programs that ONLY address the “problematic” behavior fail to allow the addict to get to what his REAL issue is; the need for Christ.

Had I been able to stop my lusting before coming into recovery, my life would be much worse than it is now. I would have delayed or completely put off ever truly turning my will and life over to Christ, which is what life on this earth is all about. We should strive for a “Yes” similar to Mary’s “Yes”. Had I never entered recovery, I would have never bothered seeking true submission to God’s will in ALL Things.

I would just say that if you are planning on proposing any other system that you ensure that at its core the addict finds Christ and thereby finds the peace and happiness they had been so long searching for in their vice. If not, they are likely to replace that still present hole with something else, work, meaningless hobbies, volunteering, sex, drugs, eating, pride, etc. If you are hoping to allow people to apply a bandaid to their issue, for instance, to stop drinking without really dealing with their real issues then I would suggest you take a step back and re-examine your motives. Without Christ, our lives are void of meaning. We are restless until we rest in Christ. Converting someone from being an alcoholic to a workaholic or volunteeraholic may look great on the surface, but you really have just traded one issue for another. If every person could take a pill that lead to happiness, it would be worthless in comparison to finding the love of Christ. In the grand scheme of things, a “cure” without Christ, is not a cure at all.

As far as the psychology goes, I would suggest reading up on some of the work by Patrick Carnes. I think it will help you better understand what your missing when people refer to addiction as a disease. It has to do with the fact that when we lust, drink or whatever, we become obsessive about the behavoir and our neuropathways don’t interact like non-addicts. Perhaps it is because you yourself are not an addict that you cannot see this, but as an addict I see no other explanation for my seemingly complete inability to prevent myself from doing what I so desperately did not want to do. How many nights did I spend in tears hoping that I would not be able to act out, begging God to help me stop? If you have never been through pre-occupation and ritualization be thankful.

God Bless

 

[Andrew1980]

Andrew1980;10142717:

Andrew,

You don’t have to. If it looks like religion, smells like religion, sounds like religion and the only religion that can be shown to have the fullness of truth is the OHCAC, then why are you there?

You are nuts to think it is a religion. The same things could be said about weight watchers… Weight watchers is a religion and they allow you to eat meat on Friday’s of lent! Look out for weight watchers. They are a cult that teaches their members how to lose weight, but they are direct contradiction to the Catholic church! We must avoid weight watchers all together since their point system allows you to eat meat on Fridays and even during a Eucharistic fast!

 

[Mgray82]

“When you speak of “your program” you expect respect.”

I don’t even expect to wake up tomorrow or live to see tonight least the Good Lord permits it. You think anyone’s respect on earth matters to me? I serve one God my friend.

But really, comments like this doesn’t make a good witness to your case. Lets keep it on the topic at hand and not throw around accusations. Anyone capable of reading this whole thread (such as the moderator or administrator here) knows I’ve never demanded such a thing.

 

[CopticChristian]

“I haven’t read up on many other forms of recovery, but I would be VERY leery about any recovery program that didn’t have at its final solution the need to turn your lives and wills over to God.”

Where, then, should the suffering atheist go? Or do they not figure into your equation if they do not believe in God, thereby being rendered ineligible for health, happiness, or even mere contentment?

Silenced,

You can imagine that there are as many willing to as there are not willing to seek God, so what do you propose for those that are not willing to seek God?

 

[Andrew1980]

“I haven’t read up on many other forms of recovery, but I would be VERY leery about any recovery program that didn’t have at its final solution the need to turn your lives and wills over to God.”

Where, then, should the suffering atheist go? Or do they not figure into your equation if they do not believe in God, thereby being rendered ineligible for health, happiness, or even mere contentment?

The suffering atheist will never find comfort until they find Christ… no one will. They might move from one addiction to something else, but the truth is without Christ we will never find what we are looking for. We were made by Christ, for Christ, and will one day find ever-lasting life through Christ. There is no such thing as a truly happy life without Christ. Maybe a happy life by the world’s standards, but not one by God’s standards.

 

[CopticChristian]

If you surrender to Christ it could be argued that you are surrendering to God, thereby making your statement redundant. Or has Catholicism changed so much in the last several decades that the components of the Holy Trinity are now seeking autonomy from each other?

Silenced,

It is prayer to the Father, through the Son in the unity of the Holy Spirit that we seek union.

 

[silenced]

Silenced,

Here is Reid Hesters CV

behaviortherapy.com/rkhvita.pdf

Here you will find links to EVIDENCE base ALTERNATIVES

behaviortherapy.com/

links to evidence base practice sites & alternative self-help groups in the addictions

Alltyr Dr. Mark Willenbring’s clinic in St. Paul MN that provides clinical services and consultation to providers.
Alternative Support Groups
Andrew Tartarsky’s Harm Reduction web site (New York, NY)
CRA and CRAFT
Guided Self-Change Clinic at Nova Southeastern University
Harm Reduction Therapy Center (San Francisco CA)
ModerateDrinkingOptions.com Arnold Washton’s programs in NYC and Princeton, NJ
Moderation Management
Responsible Recovery (a harm reduction center in the San Francisco Bay area)
SMART Recovery

and here you will find the results of the work by Hester…WHAT WORKS

behaviortherapy.com/whatworks.htm

and there you will find on the list 37/48 12 step facilitation and 38/48 Alcoholics Anonymous…

You are sober because you stopped drinking. If you read the Truth About Addiction, there you will find many that are sober because of what is called Spontaneous Recovery, people like Bing Crosby to name a few. There are others…

THE DISEASE MODEL

THE AMERICAN DISEASE MODEL and the Diseasing of America…

and here you will find links to discussion of how the notion of disease was introduced

soberforever.net/current_research.cfm

I posted this site before and you seem not to have seen it…

Glad you don’t drink anymore…glad you’re OK…

Look, I have been around the block repeatedly on these issues, and what I’ve found is that there is a faction of people who do believe alcoholism is a disease and another faction who do not believe it is a disease. If someone believes alcoholism is a disease and if that, which he believes to be a reliable fact, keeps him sober, then whether it is or is not a disease is inconsequential. The fact that thousands and thousands of treatment centers are getting fat off insurance companies who cover treatment based on the premise that alcoholism is a disease is obscene. There are other modalities available to the suffering alcoholic and he need not ever identify himself as an alcoholic. The very fact that you are concerned that someone is cornered into doing so is laughable and pathetic. It keeps a shroud of second-class status firmly in place over the heads and hearts of alcoholics. There is no shame in being dependent on alcohol. Would you shun someone with anxiety?

The focal point of the scenario is the alcoholic. And if he is sober that’s what counts. It doesn’t matter how he gets there.

I don’t believe anyone knows what alcoholism or addiction really is. I think everyone has his own agenda regarding this topic, and that the topic itself is a red herring in view of the fact that people are dying from alcohol dependence. All you want to do is argue the peripheral points while the drunk sinks lower and lower into misery and hopelessness. If you want to help, get your hands dirty. Get out in the trenches, go to the jails, set up a program through your church. Don’t just pontificate from your armchair.

 

[CopticChristian]

They can, who is stopping them? All I know is that the 12 Steps is definitely a great benefit for many people. Is it the only way to stop acting out compulsions? Of course not. No one claims that it is.

In my experience one of the great things about the 12 Steps is that it doesn’t let you take the easy way out, so to speak. To get recovery, you surrender yourself to God. These 12 steps work for alcohol, lust, overeating, etc, etc. If, for instance, your compulsion is eating, you may be able to do treatments of liposuction, stomach staples etc. All of these things are ways to “fix” your over eating problem to some extent, but they all leave the root cause in place. The root cause is the unmet need to surrender their lives to Christ. Without that step, they will never find true happiness or peace. Thus many other programs that ONLY address the “problematic” behavior fail to allow the addict to get to what his REAL issue is; the need for Christ.

Had I been able to stop my lusting before coming into recovery, my life would be much worse than it is now. I would have delayed or completely put off ever truly turning my will and life over to Christ, which is what life on this earth is all about. We should strive for a “Yes” similar to Mary’s “Yes”. Had I never entered recovery, I would have never bothered seeking true submission to God’s will in ALL Things.

I would just say that if you are planning on proposing any other system that you ensure that at its core the addict finds Christ and thereby finds the peace and happiness they had been so long searching for in their vice. If not, they are likely to replace that still present hole with something else, work, meaningless hobbies, volunteering, sex, drugs, eating, pride, etc. If you are hoping to allow people to apply a bandaid to their issue, for instance, to stop drinking without really dealing with their real issues then I would suggest you take a step back and re-examine your motives. Without Christ, our lives are void of meaning. We are restless until we rest in Christ. Converting someone from being an alcoholic to a workaholic or volunteeraholic may look great on the surface, but you really have just traded one issue for another. If every person could take a pill that lead to happiness, it would be worthless in comparison to finding the love of Christ. In the grand scheme of things, a “cure” without Christ, is not a cure at all.

As far as the psychology goes, I would suggest reading up on some of the work by Patrick Carnes. I think it will help you better understand what your missing when people refer to addiction as a disease. It has to do with the fact that when we lust, drink or whatever, we become obsessive about the behavoir and our neuropathways don’t interact like non-addicts. Perhaps it is because you yourself are not an addict that you cannot see this, but as an addict I see no other explanation for my seemingly complete inability to prevent myself from doing what I so desperately did not want to do. How many nights did I spend in tears hoping that I would not be able to act out, begging God to help me stop? If you have never been through pre-occupation and ritualization be thankful.

God Bless

Andrew,

You condemn anything that is not the 12 step religion as taking the easy way out.

The need is Christ. Where do you find Christ?

Patrick Carnes, is the first story you will read in the book Sex Addicts Anonymous. I know Patrick Carnes.

 

[CopticChristian]

CopticChristian;10144232:

You are nuts to think it is a religion. The same things could be said about weight watchers… Weight watchers is a religion and they allow you to eat meat on Friday’s of lent! Look out for weight watchers. They are a cult that teaches their members how to lose weight, but they are direct contradiction to the Catholic church! We must avoid weight watchers all together since their point system allows you to eat meat on Fridays and even during a Eucharistic fast!

Andrew,

I had no idea that weight watchers required you to confess your sins.

 

[Pat_Payne]

I didn’t say it was “problematic for an alcoholic who is catholic”. I simply pointed out their beliefs with regard to a “higher power”, which is that anything at all can be your higher power, be it “god” (of any description), nature, the AA group, inanimate objects, etc and that whatever power YOU choose has the capability to “restore you to sanity”–as long as the “power” isn’t you yourself. Since you mentioned it, though, I would have to say that doesn’t really fall in line with Catholic teaching.

The reason they did that was not to denigrate religion or to promote indifferentism or any such thing, but to cast the widest net – to reach athiests or agnostics who would otherwise be put off by the program. And sadly, sometimes people need in the interim something, anyting to cling to before they can find God – think of St. Paul’s words: “I fed you with milk because you were not ready for solid food.” Geting somebody to believe in something, anything higher and greater than themselves, even if it is the chair they sit in at that meeting, is for the good and will lead them, God willing, to the one greatest good, God Himself.

BTW, one of the men that Bill W. consulted for aid with AA was a Jesuit priest, and there is a glowing recommendation from a Bishop, IIRC, in the Big Book.

 

[CopticChristian]

The suffering atheist will never find comfort until they find Christ… no one will. They might move from one addiction to something else, but the truth is without Christ we will never find what we are looking for. We were made by Christ, for Christ, and will one day find ever-lasting life through Christ. There is no such thing as a truly happy life without Christ. Maybe a happy life by the world’s standards, but not one by God’s standards.

Andrew,

So then anyone with addiction/Vice/Habit is lost if they do surrender to a 12 step/religion program and cannot find help and resolve their problems. Is this what you believe?