AA

[Jerusha]

My work is on criticism of Mormonism, with a warning that one must apply those insights to other problems in American society, and not blame Mormonism alone, so delving into that can wait. I just got Meister Eckhart!!!

 

[CopticChristian]

I think this is a critical part of the problem. Too many meetings are seriously swamped by people who go only because the judge says so.

Some of the problems in AA are paralleled with those of Mormonism. “The courage to change the things we can,” for example, is often ignored in favor of “The serenity to accept the things we cannot change.” Little wisdom in that. Same as in Mormonism, which justifies human suffering. Another parallel is in taking step-work to people who are not qualified to counsel afterwards.

Jerusha,

The entire paradigm is filled with some sort of mystery…save some time…God grant me to change the things I can, accept the things I cannot and the wisdom to know the difference…

All lurkers can save themselves the time and trouble of going to meetings, wondering what it is they got, how they got it, reading a book, wondering what this is all about…believing you are forever diseased or…

get real…

The only thing you can change is yourself…here is the wisdom, free of time and trouble.

The source of your problems will diminish when you learn to accept things outside yourself as things you cannot change unless you change yourself and then you can feel serene…

When you want to change someone elses behavior accept that they are responding to you. When you change your behavior others will respond to you differently. There you have the ability to change someone elses behavior.

There, that is what this is all about…and you don’t have to go any meeting, get a sponsor or believe you are diseased to understand this…

Next…

 

[Jerusha]

If you let go of the semantic quibbling on sin vs. disease, we are all diseased: we all sin. To focus on alcohol abuse as our only sin, is contrary to the finer print of the 12 steps. The guilt of other sins can lead us back to drink. But, of course, there is a more serious consequence that those who do not find God do not understand.

Anyway, back to Eckhart, before I get permanently derailed.

 

[Mgray82]

Lastwordism was my joke Coptic. Come up with your own.

estesbob, as long as Coptic doesn’t tell me I’m going to go to hell, I can put up with his criticism of AA.

Think my favorite quote over at the baptist link you provided was;

“I’d rather be drunk and saved then sober in hell”

 

[estesbob]

Lastwordism was my joke Coptic. Come up with your own.

estesbob, as long as Coptic doesn’t tell me I’m going to go to hell, I can put up with his criticism of AA.

Think my favorite quote over at the baptist link you provided was;

“I’d rather be drunk and saved then sober in hell”

No money in AA for medical professionals .Ill stick to that I know works and throw a dollar in the basket when it comes by.

 

[CopticChristian]

Lastwordism was my joke Coptic. Come up with your own.

estesbob, as long as Coptic doesn’t tell me I’m going to go to hell, I can put up with his criticism of AA.

Think my favorite quote over at the baptist link you provided was;

“I’d rather be drunk and saved then sober in hell”

Mgray,

I have been as serious as I can be, helpful when I can, and I have asked for a discussion on Theologic Virtues and human virtues and been ignored. I am not criticizing. I am explaining and showing what AA is…how can you say something is good or bad without knowing what it is…? I have explained previously its Protestant roots and ties to Methodism…those lurking thinking about going to AA, having been to AA without success, knowing someone struggling and getting no help in AA will find this information useful…

here is the completion of the Methodism parallel…

1. Accountability with a group leader, “the variable format”
   Each week the format varies with this accountability with a group leader. The weeks break down as follows:

1. One evening devoted to prayer and singing exclusively.
2. One to an experience meeting with voluntary or solicited with an occasional word of encouragement, reproof, or advice as may seem best adapted, interspersed with appropriate songs.
3. Two evenings to Scripture recitations, bearing on some subject previously announced.

1. Accountability with a group leader, “the conversational plan”
   The group leader opens the meeting and announces the topic of conversation. Then the group leader gives his or her own experience concerning it, and the asks volunteers to do the same, all the while making all they say come out in the form of natural conversation. There was no discussing anything but experience.
2. Accountability with a group leader, “free talk”
   This method arose from disliking the old method of a brief testimony from each person and a reply from the leader (intended to avoid rambling and unprofitable conversation). Instead, crosstalk was encouraged. The leader gives out a scripture promise at the close of a meeting for the succeeding one. There was something of a system of texts, beginning with the Christian life, and then expressing different stages of advancement.
3. Accountability with a group leader (Probationers Class)
   Some societies had a 3 month probationary period. These societies allowed first two visits to a Methodist class society to check it out, one every other week, to protect the sensitivities of the current members. Evidently the probationary period was sometimes served as a part of a Class Society meeting and sometimes the probationary period was served as a separate meeting from the class. These were ministered to as those with convincing or convicting grace. The Method for this class is unknown, but it probably followed closely one of the 3 “older methods” of the class society. It is being listed as a separate method because the class was offered to those who were on a probationary status, and after satisfactory completion they would move onto a regular Class Society.
4. Group Accountability (Band Society)
   Where the Class Society was focused to be an entry point to Methodism, the Band Society was for those who experienced justifying grace, sought sanctification and wanted to maximize James 5:16: “Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.

This was a small group without an appointed group leader, crosstalk throughout, divided by sex, age, and marital status, usually 4-6 members. The meetings were closed. They observed the “General Rules”, and the “Directions Given to the Band Societies”.
12) Group Accountability (Select Society)
No specific method of holiness. No group leader. Members “selected” by John Wesley or another official with senior ranking in the Methodist Societies. Usually a group of 4-6, they observed the “General Rules” and the “Directions Given to the Select Society” and practiced accountability for sanctification and for their gifts of the spirit.

1. Accountability with a Group Leader (Penitent Society)
   This group was comprised of persons who were backsliders from either the class or the band societies. The accountability method is unknown. Meetings were usually conducted on Saturday evening to separate them from the Class and Band Society meetings usually held on Thursday evening. John Wesley presided over many of these meetings with the “no one left behind” approach for those who wanted to repent and come back. They practiced accountability for their convicting grace

continued…

 

[CopticChristian]

Lastwordism was my joke Coptic. Come up with your own.

estesbob, as long as Coptic doesn’t tell me I’m going to go to hell, I can put up with his criticism of AA.

Think my favorite quote over at the baptist link you provided was;

“I’d rather be drunk and saved then sober in hell”

Continued…

and here are facts…

Frank Buchman/Oxford Groupers/Moral Rearmament/ are the roots of AA, the religous roots of AA can be found here at Dick B. blog sight and if you wonder about abstinence…

dickb.com/

jstor.org/discover/10.2307/25167862?uid=3739552&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101469524243

You will see here the Methodist approach…and the temperance movement has its roots here as well…ABSTINENCE stems from the temperance movement and was adopted by AA.

Dr. Silworth believed that the great Physician was Christ, Bill Wilson consulted with Dr. Silkworth, Fulton Sheen, a Priest, séances and took LSD. He was saved at Calvary Chapel.

Dr. Bob, January 1933, Anne Smith attended a lecture by Frank Buchman, the founder of the Oxford Group. For the next two years she and Dr. Smith attended local meeting of the group in an effort to solve his alcoholism, but recovery eluded him until he met Bill Wilson on May 13, 1935. Wilson, an alcoholic who had learned how to stay sober by helping other alcoholics through the Oxford Group in New York, was in Akron on business that had proven unsuccessful and he was in fear of relapsing. Recognizing the danger, he made inquiries about any local alcoholics he could talk to and was referred to Smith by Henrietta Sieberling, one of the leaders of the Akron Oxford Group.

Dr. Bob/Bill Wilson

There I humbly offered myself to God, as I then I understood Him, to do with me as He would. I placed myself unreservedly under His care and direction. I admitted for the first time that of myself I was nothing; that without Him I was lost. I ruthlessly faced my sins and became willing to have my new-found Friend take them away, root and branch. I have not had a drink since.

This is what Bill says in the Big Book but in reality he was saved at Calvary Chapel. The God he understood and expects you to understand is Christ.

AA founded in 1935

The Disease Concept of Alcoholism Jellenik 1960

AMA declares Alcoholism Illness 1965

AMA declares Alcoholism Disease 1966

So the notion of being diseased in AA did not commence until 30 years after it was founded. Were they diseased prior to that? Of course not.

baldwinresearch.com/alcoholism.cfm

Baldwin Research began its efforts in 1989 when it conducted a study of modern Alcoholics Anonymous. Then in 1990 it began a study of 38 subjects with drug and alcohol problems. These studies were initiated to prove or disprove claims by Alcoholics Anonymous of success rates as high as 93% and claims by the treatment industry of success rates as high as 80%. Baldwin Research was able to duplicate the 93% success rate, but could not validate a single treatment program with a success rate greater that 30%.

**“Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is doing it, and right is right, even if nobody is doing it.” -Bishop Fulton J. Sheen **

AA believes that you must resolve your character defects/sins to get sober.

AA has it’s roots in Methodism and Protestant thought

AA has religious beliefs and is Faith based and courts have ruled it as religious and some courts declared AA to be religion.

Facts are not criticism and there are only 500 more posts to get to my point…

 

[CopticChristian]

No money in AA for medical professionals .Ill stick to that I know works and throw a dollar in the basket when it comes by.

Estes,

Here is where you are incorrect without knowing why…it is not AA, but what the Declaring the Disease using AA has done…there is plenty of money in AA for medical professionals…those halls of Betty Ford, Hazeldon and every other 12 step Mission is paid for by the Diseasing of America…$50,000.00 a pop for an (name removed by moderator)atient stay at a 12 step rehab…yup…that is why the AMA declares it to be a disease, the ICD-9 Codes and CPT codes go right along so as to get money…if the insurance companies won’t pay it then the public will…

addiction treatment in the United States has been built around residential treatment programs and hospitals—even though what is delivered within their walls is nearly always warmed-over AA. Neurobiological models of addiction are consistent with the privatized, heavily medicalized American health care system. This is not the approach taken in most of the rest of the industrialized world. But American agents of this so-called Minnesota Model are now busy selling it throughout the UK and the rest of Europe.

Yet the most important agents in selling the “chronic brain disease” model aren’t Big Pharma, drug rehabs, and 12-step profiteers. Really, the NIDA and the newly minted American Board of Addiction Medicine are the biggest purveyors of the idea to Americans, and now worldwide. Thus, more and more people are being told that addiction is an external power that takes over their lives, and which they have no ability to halt or overcome.

From the Truth About Addiction…

 

[PaladinSword]

New to this thread. Don’t have the time to read the whole thing but hopefully will.

I am in the program and have a love hate relationship with it. I got sober through the church and prayer and meditation. I usually just go to Aa Na ca whatever for the fellowship. I will hopefully be taking two years in April. I am getting tired of it but sometimes it is fruitful. I haven’t had a drink in nearly four years but I did have some synthetic marijuana with a friend a year and a half ago. I can’t enjoy any kind of chemical headchange anymore even if I tried so I don’t even bother. I think God has given me a lot mostly through the church. Most of my personal friends are in recovery and everybody has their own style. Honestly though a lot of us think the 12 step program is kind of bogus. There is just nowhere else to go. I’ve tried going to some Christ centered meetings that used to be great and they’ve become terrible!

 

[Mgray82]

One of the prominent symptoms of lastwordism is a lack of or completely no sense of humor…

 

[CopticChristian]

New to this thread. Don’t have the time to read the whole thing but hopefully will.

I am in the program and have a love hate relationship with it. I got sober through the church and prayer and meditation. I usually just go to Aa Na ca whatever for the fellowship. I will hopefully be taking two years in April. I am getting tired of it but sometimes it is fruitful. I haven’t had a drink in nearly four years but I did have some synthetic marijuana with a friend a year and a half ago. I can’t enjoy any kind of chemical headchange anymore even if I tried so I don’t even bother. I think God has given me a lot mostly through the church. Most of my personal friends are in recovery and everybody has their own style. Honestly though a lot of us think the 12 step program is kind of bogus. There is just nowhere else to go. I’ve tried going to some Christ centered meetings that used to be great and they’ve become terrible!

PS,

Check into SMART recovery for a compare and contrast. The link below gives you places in California. Northridge may be close to some Los Angeles area places. I believe that they also have online meetings.

smartrecovery.org/meetings_db/view/showalpha_state.php?search=C

This is the outline of the meetings…

smartrecovery.org/meetings/outline.htm

This is the online meeting schedule…

smartrecovery.org/meetings/olschedule.htm

You can practice talking about

Your are not your behavior
You are not diseased
etc…

You can crosstalk all you want…no sponsors, no I am this disease…just Hi, my name is and I have problems with Alcohol and it has caused me to do…

Compare and contrast what it is they offer with what you have now. If keeping you on the straight and narrow works then work it. No harm in finding out what those that use CBT based tools are doing. CBT has a better success rate.

Think of it like two different means of helping one problem. If you get help then what you do is of less concern and the overall outcome is improved. This means that you are not wedded to one way of thinking and this causes change in and of itself.

 

[CopticChristian]

One of the prominent symptoms of lastwordism is a lack of or completely no sense of humor…

Mgray,

You are wrong again…

A Catholic, a Baptist, and a Mormon are bragging about the size of their families.
“I have four boys and my wife is expecting another. One more son and I’ll have a basketball team!” said the Catholic.

“That’s nothing!’’ said the Baptist. ''I have ten boys now, and my wife is pregnant with another child. One more son and I’ll have a football team!”

“You both should be ashamed of yourselves!’’ said the Mormon. ''I have seventeen wives. One more and I’ll have a golf course!”

Would you consider discussing Theologic Virtues and human virtues and how they relate to a sinful life?

 

[Jerusha]

Would you consider discussing Theologic Virtues and human virtues and how they relate to a sinful life?

Very interesting in the context of a comparison between Joseph Smith and Meister Eckhart.

 

[CopticChristian]

Very interesting in the context of a comparison between Joseph Smith and Meister Eckhart.

Jerusha,

You are going to have to explain this…

Joseph Smith a Mormon Prophet that made up a religion

vs

Meister Eckhart a Theologian whose thoughts raised the brows of the Church

Help me understand your point of view.

 

[Jerusha]

We are derailing.

There are parallels between Eckhart’s sermon #28 and Smith’s King Follet Discourse. Apparently JS took #28 out of the context of the rest of Eckhart’s work. And, yes, it is perfectly reasonable that JS came in contact with Eckhart’s work.

 

[CopticChristian]

We are derailing.

There are parallels between Eckhart’s sermon #28 and Smith’s King Follet Discourse. Apparently JS took #28 out of the context of the rest of Eckhart’s work. And, yes, it is perfectly reasonable that JS came in contact with Eckhart’s work.

Jerusha,

I wrote…

Would you consider discussing Theologic Virtues and human virtues and how they relate to a sinful life?

and you related that to Joseph Smith and Meister Eckhart. I have no understanding of what it is you are thinking or wanting someone to understand.

However…in consideration that this dialogue is concerning…

Morally neutral Addiction/Recovery
vs
Sin and Salvation…

Allow me to introduce some thoughts…I shall compare and contrast some Bible passages, the Catechism and the inherent incorrect thinking of AA…

The letter to the Romans, Paul makes the point…all are under the power of sin…

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any betterb? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:

Step 1 - We admitted we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable

The 12 steps start with this…and this is wrong…

We all must admit that we are powerless over sin, as Paul says, Jew, Gentile, Greek, Barbarian…and our lives are unmanageable while sinning…this is based on the God of The Catholic Church understanding, you are Catholics and this is what you and lurkers should understand…on your own you can do nothing…

and the God of Your Understanding as a Catholic…is based on the Revelation of God…as found in the teachings of the OHCAC as seen in the deposit of Faith the Catechism…

I therefore strongly urge my Venerable Brothers in the Episcopate, for whom the Catechism is primarily intended, to take the excellent opportunity afforded by the promulgation of this Latin edition to intensify their efforts to disseminate the text more widely and to ensure that it is well received as an outstanding gift for the communities entrusted to them, which will thus be able to** rediscover the inexhaustible riches of the faith**.

John Paul II asks you and everyone to look at the Catechism and find the riches of the Faith and in doing so I believe you will understand, the God of your understanding…

I. The Life of Man—To Know and Love God

1 God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Savior. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.

The God of your understanding seeks you, you respond, and He seeks you in your sin, over which you have no power, and He calls you, and if in your sin, you find yourself wherever you are, in a meeting, that calling is a calling to Him…

Note the structure of the deposit of Faith and how it is you can come to know the God of our understanding in the OHCAC…

IV. Structure of This Catechism

13 The plan of this catechism is inspired by the great tradition of catechisms which build catechesis on four pillars: the baptismal profession of faith (the Creed), the sacraments of faith, the life of faith (the Commandments), and the prayer of the believer (the Lord’s Prayer).

The secular world has figured out, as we believe, so we think, as we think, so we act…and here the OHCAC has posited for you the same sentiment…I have summarized this below…

Part One: The profession of faith

14 Those who belong to Christ through faith and Baptism must confess their baptismal faith before men.16 First therefore the Catechism expounds revelation, by which God addresses and gives himself to man, and the faith by which man responds to God (Section One). The profession of faith summarizes the gifts that God gives man: as the Author of all that is good; as Redeemer; and as Sanctifier. It develops these in the three chapters on our baptismal faith in the one God: the almighty Father, the Creator; his Son Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior; and the Holy Spirit, the Sanctifier, in the Holy Church (Section Two).

Part Two: The sacraments of faith15

The second part of the Catechism explains how God’s salvation, accomplished once for all through Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit, is made present in the sacred actions of the Church’s liturgy (Section One), especially in the seven sacraments (Section Two).

Part Three: The life of faith

16 The third part of the Catechism deals with the final end of man created in the image of God: beatitude, and the ways of reaching it—through right conduct freely chosen, with the help of God’s law and grace (Section One), and through conduct that fulfills the twofold commandment of charity, specified in God’s Ten Commandments (Section Two).

Part Four: Prayer in the life of faith

17 The last part of the Catechism deals with the meaning and importance of prayer in the life of believers (Section One). It concludes with a brief commentary on the seven petitions of the Lord’s Prayer (Section Two), for indeed we find in these the sum of all the good things which we must hope for and which our heavenly Father wants to grant us.

Continued…

 

[CopticChristian]

We are derailing.

There are parallels between Eckhart’s sermon #28 and Smith’s King Follet Discourse. Apparently JS took #28 out of the context of the rest of Eckhart’s work. And, yes, it is perfectly reasonable that JS came in contact with Eckhart’s work.

Continued…

As we Believe…first part
So we think and live the Sacramental Life…second part…
and as we think and believe we strive towards the example of Christ, holiness as is our calling as God is Holy…second part continued…
We pray and ask for help…

So as we think and believe…striving for Holiness, under the power of Sin, we ask for help from the God who created us and gave us the power over sin…by the Father, through the Son in the Unity of the Holy Spirit…

So wherever you are in your calling, wherever you are in your response, whatever steps you have taken or admitted…you must admit you are powerless over sin, and that the only way out is to repent…Metanoia…and that means change your mind…

**We all must admit that we are powerless over sin, as Paul says, Jew, Gentile, Greek, Barbarian…and our lives are unmanageable while sinning…this is based on the God of The Catholic Church understanding, you are Catholics and this is what you and lurkers should understand…on your own you can do nothing…

and the God of Your Understanding as a Catholic…is based on the Revelation of God…as found in the teachings of the OHCAC as seen in the deposit of Faith the Catechism…**

 

[CopticChristian]

Very interesting in the context of a comparison between Joseph Smith and Meister Eckhart.

Jerusha,

So we are on the same page, no pun intended, someone thought it was funny that I said we are not “Bible Christians”…from the Catechism…

When we worship God and celebrate the Mass…we hold Scripture high and show reverance…

103 For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord’s Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God’s Word and Christ’s Body.66 (1100, 1184, 1378)

I believe it is irreverent to take Bible passages out and imply personal meaning that does not venerate the OHCAC teaching and in particular the 12 steps that try to conform Bible passages to support the “Biblical Meaning”…these often do not comply with the teachings of the OHCAC and this is irreverent…

AA and Protestanism are religions of the Book…and that is not what the OHCAC teaches…

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living.”73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, “open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.”74

 

[CopticChristian]

Very interesting in the context of a comparison between Joseph Smith and Meister Eckhart.

Jerusha,

and here Paul points out all the elements that God provides for us to know and serve…this is and should be our desire for the God of our understanding…

1Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5through whom we have received **grace **and apostleship to bring about the **obedience of faith **among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake, 6among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
7to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

and Paul outlines in the letter to the Romans how we get that grace, Faith, get to know and understand God so that we can be obedient…and he takes about 5 Chapters to get there…and then explains our plight and hope…

 

[CopticChristian]

We are derailing.

There are parallels between Eckhart’s sermon #28 and Smith’s King Follet Discourse. Apparently JS took #28 out of the context of the rest of Eckhart’s work. And, yes, it is perfectly reasonable that JS came in contact with Eckhart’s work.

Jerusha,

So, now there should be an understanding…

That we are all under the power of sin…

God calls us, we respond…

He gives us the gifts we need to overcome sin and to respond and that is a loving Father…that wants us to know Him, please Him and serve Him…and He gives us an example of who He wants us to be in His Son…and the Son sends another to help us…The Holy Spirit…

and it all starts with our response,
our consent,
Our Baptism…

Where through Consent we are given the Theologic Virtues…Faith the only way to know the God of our understanding…on our own? by no means with His help…

all found in the deposit of Faith…John Paul II, urges you, I urge you to know and discover the riches of the faith…revealed…

I therefore strongly urge my Venerable Brothers in the Episcopate, for whom the Catechism is primarily intended, to take the excellent opportunity afforded by the promulgation of this Latin edition to intensify their efforts to disseminate the text more widely and to ensure that it is well received as an outstanding gift for the communities entrusted to them, which will thus be able to rediscover the inexhaustible riches of the faith

.

I have suggested this before…I suggest it again…are you the greatest sinner? Do you long for God enough…

St Paul in his life says…

I am the least of the Apostles
later
I am the least of the Saints
and lastly
I am the greatest of sinners…would you believe that to stand next to Paul and live his example would be worthwhile? To be like St. Paul, would be glory…and he believed he was the greatest of sinners…

Hi, my name is George and I am the greatest of sinners…Hi…George…

do you long for God enough or as much as St. Augustine…listen to what he says and if you can come close to what he says then the worst that will happen is that you can make strides towards knowing and loving the God that created you…

archive.org/details/confessions_augustine_0911_librivox

as an addict, as an alcoholic? by no means, as a sinner, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God…

Wake up every day and look in the mirror and say thank you for creating me, tell yourslef that you are a child of God, believe that God is your Father, and your Father knows that by one man’s sin we were made sinners and by one man’s obedience we were made righteous…

can you believe and accept that you were made righteous…all you need to do is repent…change your mind…