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:confused: Sure. Remember, I am an inactive AA, no longer deeply involved in it, although I often analyze my problems in the same way I learned from AA.
 
LongJourney said:
:confused: Sure. Remember, I am an inactive AA, no longer deeply involved in it, although I often analyze my problems in the same way I learned from AA.
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LJ,

Ok,

So from recollection the person I outlined realized things, did things and changed their life. Is there anything lacking? Would there be things needed?
 
From our perspective, Sacramentality is presumed to be part of the process, although others would disagree. Obviously, if the individual needed meds for any underlying disorder, that is also presumed. Again, peer support, from an AA perspective, given the fact that many people in early recovery often presume that others are being judgmental.

I know, you are searching for answers just as much as anyone else on this debate.
 
LongJourney said:
From our perspective, Sacramentality is presumed to be part of the process, although others would disagree. Obviously, if the individual needed meds for any underlying disorder, that is also presumed. Again, peer support, from an AA perspective, given the fact that many people in early recovery often presume that others are being judgmental.

I know, you are searching for answers just as much as anyone else on this debate.
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LJ,

Are you saying that making an effort to participate in the Sacraments,ie Reconcilliation and Eucharist is part of the process for a Catholic?

Medical disorders and health is a given.

Peer support would be essential.

So concerning the elements of change is it my understanding that the changes are consistent with “recovery” however that happened as you view the journey in 3 postings?
 
Sure. There has to be some kind of a structure, and AA is the most frequently used, but those factors, including professional counseling are the essentials.
 
chi rho greekChristian;10213380]Abide,

This is posted to you but any of the 12 step knowledgeable people can help out and agree or disagree…consider the following scenario…

Let us just say for discussion sake that someone drank, drank more, lost their job, their family, went to jail, stole, lied, manipulated people and was immodest, and finally went to AA. After 5 years this person turned their life around…this person now does the following….

Is there agreement of diagreement that what I posted is a change in what was to a rehabilitated, recovered individual previously out of control?

Hi Coptic, I’m taking some time to rest before another especially busy week, but I’ll follow the discussion without posting for now.
 
LongJourney said:
Sure. There has to be some kind of a structure, and AA is the most frequently used, but those factors, including professional counseling are the essentials.
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LJ,

Ok, so then you say that peer support, counseling, Sacraments, addressing medical issues and whatever the process to get to the end result…as I have outlined in 3 stages would be considered someone that has realized the need for change, worked on the change, changes and has achieved “recovery” and may be one drink away from disaster…about right? I would like to see what others think as well.
 
I have been sober in AA for over 20 years. There is some interesting information being posted in this thread - some very factual, some slightly factual. I know that Bill W. considered becoming Catholic at one time but rejected the idea of conversion because he really could not see himself submitting to Papal Authority. That does not suprise me - most of us Alkies have a real problem with authority.

The Big Book is not ‘outdated’ as someone complained and there have been 4 Editions - the updating is done through the stories in the back of the BB and provide updated, modern ideas and experiences.

The 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous are simply suggestions and the idea that one can come up with their own conception of God is certainly not anti-Catholic in its foundation. Catholics believe in Natural Law. AA, when done properly (and yes, I believe there is a right and wrong way to participate in AA but who cares what I think?) merely guides someone to begin their journey to a faith that works with the acknowledgement that there is a God and it is not THEM.

AA does not pretend to be the only way for someone to maintain sobriety. It may not be the ‘most modern’ and it may not suit every alcoholic. It certainly suits me and because the fellowship is founded on the principle that no one should ever be excluded who has a desire to stop drinking it is a fellowship open to people of all faith and no faith.

I got into a dialogue with a founder of a Catholic organization called Sober for Christ because he falsely maintained that Catholics cannot be members of AA and faithful Catholics. He took one line out of the Big Book and stated it ‘proved’ that to be a member of AA one must deny the divinity of Christ. Not only was he wrong, he was spreading false information about AA. No one, and I mean NO ONE, in Alcoholics Anonymous demands that another member deny the divinity fo Jesus Christ. Christianity in and of itself is an outside issue and AA has no opinion ON outside issues. I directed the gentleman to information on AA that can be found right here at Catholic Answers and he was shocked that someone (I suspected he had never been properly sponsored when he tried AA) knew enough about AA and its history to point out his misconceptions. I have no idea if the guy ever removed the scandalous video of his from You Tube. I hope he did as it really makes fervent Catholics look like idiots.

I am a faithful Catholic, a Lay member of the Order of Preachers, a Catechist, a writer, a speaker and a sober member of AA. I am CATHOLIC OUT LOUD. I also root for the Niners. I have a real relationship with my family (not always perfect but we do love each other) and I partake of the Sacraments whenever I can - so I think trying to prove I belong to a cult that denies Jesus is God would be outright ridiculous.

But what do I know?
 
LSK said:
I have been sober in AA for over 20 years. There is some interesting information being posted in this thread - some very factual, some slightly factual. I know that Bill W. considered becoming Catholic at one time but rejected the idea of conversion because he really could not see himself submitting to Papal Authority. That does not suprise me - most of us Alkies have a real problem with authority.

The Big Book is not ‘outdated’ as someone complained and there have been 4 Editions - the updating is done through the stories in the back of the BB and provide updated, modern ideas and experiences.

The 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous are simply suggestions and the idea that one can come up with their own conception of God is certainly not anti-Catholic in its foundation. Catholics believe in Natural Law. AA, when done properly (and yes, I believe there is a right and wrong way to participate in AA but who cares what I think?) merely guides someone to begin their journey to a faith that works with the acknowledgement that there is a God and it is not THEM.

AA does not pretend to be the only way for someone to maintain sobriety. It may not be the ‘most modern’ and it may not suit every alcoholic. It certainly suits me and because the fellowship is founded on the principle that no one should ever be excluded who has a desire to stop drinking it is a fellowship open to people of all faith and no faith.

I got into a dialogue with a founder of a Catholic organization called Sober for Christ because he falsely maintained that Catholics cannot be members of AA and faithful Catholics. He took one line out of the Big Book and stated it ‘proved’ that to be a member of AA one must deny the divinity of Christ. Not only was he wrong, he was spreading false information about AA. No one, and I mean NO ONE, in Alcoholics Anonymous demands that another member deny the divinity fo Jesus Christ. Christianity in and of itself is an outside issue and AA has no opinion ON outside issues. I directed the gentleman to information on AA that can be found right here at Catholic Answers and he was shocked that someone (I suspected he had never been properly sponsored when he tried AA) knew enough about AA and its history to point out his misconceptions. I have no idea if the guy ever removed the scandalous video of his from You Tube. I hope he did as it really makes fervent Catholics look like idiots.

I am a faithful Catholic, a Lay member of the Order of Preachers, a Catechist, a writer, a speaker and a sober member of AA. I am CATHOLIC OUT LOUD. I also root for the Niners. I have a real relationship with my family (not always perfect but we do love each other) and I partake of the Sacraments whenever I can - so I think trying to prove I belong to a cult that denies Jesus is God would be outright ridiculous.

But what do I know?
Click to expand...
Other than the Niners(Im a Texans fan) I agree with everything you say. I have no desire to argue about AA with those who have no experience with alcoholism or AA. Like you I do occasionally step in and correct blatant misinformation about the program. i just entered my 29th year of sobriety. AA not only gave me my life back-it gave me my Faith back
 
LSK said:
I have been sober in AA for over 20 years. There is some interesting information being posted in this thread - some very factual, some slightly factual. I know that Bill W. considered becoming Catholic at one time but rejected the idea of conversion because he really could not see himself submitting to Papal Authority. That does not suprise me - most of us Alkies have a real problem with authority.

The Big Book is not ‘outdated’ as someone complained and there have been 4 Editions - the updating is done through the stories in the back of the BB and provide updated, modern ideas and experiences.

The 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous are simply suggestions and the idea that one can come up with their own conception of God is certainly not anti-Catholic in its foundation. Catholics believe in Natural Law. AA, when done properly (and yes, I believe there is a right and wrong way to participate in AA but who cares what I think?) merely guides someone to begin their journey to a faith that works with the acknowledgement that there is a God and it is not THEM.

AA does not pretend to be the only way for someone to maintain sobriety. It may not be the ‘most modern’ and it may not suit every alcoholic. It certainly suits me and because the fellowship is founded on the principle that no one should ever be excluded who has a desire to stop drinking it is a fellowship open to people of all faith and no faith.

I got into a dialogue with a founder of a Catholic organization called Sober for Christ because he falsely maintained that Catholics cannot be members of AA and faithful Catholics. He took one line out of the Big Book and stated it ‘proved’ that to be a member of AA one must deny the divinity of Christ. Not only was he wrong, he was spreading false information about AA. No one, and I mean NO ONE, in Alcoholics Anonymous demands that another member deny the divinity fo Jesus Christ. Christianity in and of itself is an outside issue and AA has no opinion ON outside issues. I directed the gentleman to information on AA that can be found right here at Catholic Answers and he was shocked that someone (I suspected he had never been properly sponsored when he tried AA) knew enough about AA and its history to point out his misconceptions. I have no idea if the guy ever removed the scandalous video of his from You Tube. I hope he did as it really makes fervent Catholics look like idiots.

I am a faithful Catholic, a Lay member of the Order of Preachers, a Catechist, a writer, a speaker and a sober member of AA. I am CATHOLIC OUT LOUD. I also root for the Niners. I have a real relationship with my family (not always perfect but we do love each other) and I partake of the Sacraments whenever I can - so I think trying to prove I belong to a cult that denies Jesus is God would be outright ridiculous.

But what do I know?
Click to expand...
Yes sir, me too. Not only did AA bring me back to church, it made me a better catholic.
Sobriety date is 6/16/2002
 
LSK said:
I have been sober in AA for over 20 years. There is some interesting information being posted in this thread - some very factual, some slightly factual. I know that Bill W. considered becoming Catholic at one time but rejected the idea of conversion because he really could not see himself submitting to Papal Authority. That does not suprise me - most of us Alkies have a real problem with authority.

The Big Book is not ‘outdated’ as someone complained and there have been 4 Editions - the updating is done through the stories in the back of the BB and provide updated, modern ideas and experiences.

The 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous are simply suggestions and the idea that one can come up with their own conception of God is certainly not anti-Catholic in its foundation. Catholics believe in Natural Law. AA, when done properly (and yes, I believe there is a right and wrong way to participate in AA but who cares what I think?) merely guides someone to begin their journey to a faith that works with the acknowledgement that there is a God and it is not THEM.

AA does not pretend to be the only way for someone to maintain sobriety. It may not be the ‘most modern’ and it may not suit every alcoholic. It certainly suits me and because the fellowship is founded on the principle that no one should ever be excluded who has a desire to stop drinking it is a fellowship open to people of all faith and no faith.

I got into a dialogue with a founder of a Catholic organization called Sober for Christ because he falsely maintained that Catholics cannot be members of AA and faithful Catholics. He took one line out of the Big Book and stated it ‘proved’ that to be a member of AA one must deny the divinity of Christ. Not only was he wrong, he was spreading false information about AA. No one, and I mean NO ONE, in Alcoholics Anonymous demands that another member deny the divinity fo Jesus Christ. Christianity in and of itself is an outside issue and AA has no opinion ON outside issues. I directed the gentleman to information on AA that can be found right here at Catholic Answers and he was shocked that someone (I suspected he had never been properly sponsored when he tried AA) knew enough about AA and its history to point out his misconceptions. I have no idea if the guy ever removed the scandalous video of his from You Tube. I hope he did as it really makes fervent Catholics look like idiots.

I am a faithful Catholic, a Lay member of the Order of Preachers, a Catechist, a writer, a speaker and a sober member of AA. I am CATHOLIC OUT LOUD. I also root for the Niners. I have a real relationship with my family (not always perfect but we do love each other) and I partake of the Sacraments whenever I can - so I think trying to prove I belong to a cult that denies Jesus is God would be outright ridiculous.

But what do I know?
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LSK,

for erudition I would like to know beyond what you don’t know what you percieve considering the changes I outlined in 3 parts as it concerns postings in

585, 592, 593

Would you have any thoughts as to whether this person has achieved similar success?
 
jesuspsr said:
Yes sir, me too. Not only did AA bring me back to church, it made me a better catholic.
Sobriety date is 6/16/2002
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Jess,

for erudition I would like to know if you might have some thoughts as to whether this person is improved and could be considered as having a basis for being a better Catholic, considering the changes I outlined in 3 parts as it concerns postings in

585, 592, 593

Would you have any thoughts as to whether this person has achieved similar success?
 
estesbob said:
Other than the Niners(Im a Texans fan) I agree with everything you say. I have no desire to argue about AA with those who have no experience with alcoholism or AA. Like you I do occasionally step in and correct blatant misinformation about the program. i just entered my 29th year of sobriety. AA not only gave me my life back-it gave me my Faith back
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Or arguing with someone who’s neither an alcoholic nor has ever been to AA. It’s like arguing sola scriptura with someone who doesn’t own, and has never read the bible.
 
Mgray82 said:
Or arguing with someone who’s neither an alcoholic nor has ever been to AA. It’s like arguing sola scriptura with someone who doesn’t own, and has never read the bible.
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Mgray,

You do provide insights into your thinking…I am not arguing with anyone…the following represents some of the facts that I have presented. There is no arguing fact.

Alcoholics Anonymous has its roots in Protestant thought. Frank Buchman, Moral Rearmament, Oxford Groupers is part of the history of AA. Bill Wilson was saved at a Calvary Chapel. Dr. Silkworth believes that the only cure for alcoholism is by the great physician Christ. The Big Book of AA took out the original stories from its first edition because these stories registered people as “recovered”. The AMA says that Alcoholism is a disease, the APA says it is a disorder, the disease model is based on faulty science commencing with Jellinek. There is no agreement on the disease theory as evidenced by St. Gregory, Baldwin Research, St. Jude, Dr. Hester, Stanton Peele, Phd, and others. The courts have ruled that AA has religious tendencies and the Supreme Court has ruled that AA violates the establishment clause when used as a means of imposing court ordered care, indicating that it is a religion. AA requires you to address Character defects that in effect are “sins”.

8157 viewers will see that there is no arguing a fact…

What these viewers will see is the problem I detect in all AA disciples…

Notice that you used a simile…simile means like…you should reflect on your use of simile and recognize what your conscious mind rejects and your unconsciuos mind produced…

You believe that there is argument. How do you argue over facts?

You compare AA as if it is the OHCAC to someone that has not read or own a Bible…think about that for a second.

AA=OHCAC or what we believe. Now the Catechism is not entirely based on fact. In fact what we believe as Catholics is as the Catechism states “revealed truths”…so understand that in your mind, you believe that AA provided you revealed truths…

Next, understand that if someone does not own a Bible, has never read the Bible how is it you believe that they would understand, accept or argue in favor of Sola Scriptura. Notice that someone that accepts Sola Scriptura does not accept Oral Tradition therefore there is an impossible situuation for that person to exist. In other words your mind has created a figment of imagination. It is not real.

Next, realize that your opponent, ie Sola Scriptura vs the OHCAC…your mind equates AA as religion to be argued with a Protestant. In other words, your unconsciou mind provided the viewers the understanding that AA disciples see anyone that provides any evidence to the contrary of their beliefs…as if Protestant…

I suggest you give me some information on the following…

for erudition I would like to know what you percieve considering the changes I outlined in 3 parts as it concerns postings in

585, 592, 593

Would you have any thoughts as to whether this person has achieved success?
 
Mgray82 said:
Or arguing with someone who’s neither an alcoholic nor has ever been to AA. It’s like arguing sola scriptura with someone who doesn’t own, and has never read the bible.
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I have enough real real recovering alcoholics to deal with without dealing with hypotheticals
 
CopticChristian said:
Jess,

for erudition I would like to know if you might have some thoughts as to whether this person is improved and could be considered as having a basis for being a better Catholic, considering the changes I outlined in 3 parts as it concerns postings in

585, 592, 593

Would you have any thoughts as to whether this person has achieved similar success?
Click to expand...
Naa, Like I said before I’m not impressed with your gibberish.
 
estesbob said:
I have enough real real recovering alcoholics to deal with without dealing with hypotheticals
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Estes,

This is perfect. Now in consideration that this thread is about AA and the Catholic Church and Jesus Christ the Bearer of the water of Life says we should distinguish

Addiction and Recovery that is morally neutral

vs

Sin and Salvation

It is a perfect point to direct attention to Habit…
 
jesuspsr said:
Naa, Like I said before I’m not impressed with your gibberish.
Click to expand...
Jess,

Are you impressed with your Church…

Those that attend these meetings call themselves drunks and refer to themselves as drunkards. I oppose this labeling. It is part and parcel of the disease model and AA. Once a drunk always a drunk. I think it is rediculous to believe and think so.

The principles you believe are Spiritual are based on Protestant thought and too many “I used to be Catholic” wander the halls of AA.

If those that went to AA knew that pagans have Human virtues and if those that went to AA knew that the grace of God through the Theologic virtues animate those human virtues towards the theologic virtues then they would know all they need to know and not need AA or do you disagree…? Is Christ, the grace of God, Virtues not enough? knowing that with the gifts of the spirit those that knew and understood would bear fruits of the spirit without the need of AA or is it just poor catechesis that those that fall into the vice of drink and other habits don’t know that what they seek is found no further than their own Faith?

If those that went to AA

Professed their Faith
Lived a Sacramental Life
Modeled Christ
Prayed

Would they not find themselves further than closer to a vice and would they not be better off than a pagan with human virtue?

The Church has all that is needed, nothing that AA has to offer is greater than this, and if those that go to AA believe that they are better Catholics then they should spend some time in the Catechism and learn their Faith and realize that what makes them better Catholics is the honing of Human virtue in the halls of AA.
 
all i know is i cannot attend an a.a. meeting and acknowledge the Christ as my Lord and Savior .
 
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