Abortion, Holocaust and Genocide

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So if you show a woman a few cells that she is carrying just after conception, then what? My guess would be that her attitude would be vastly different if you showed her a picture of what she was carrying just before birth.

Your argument is confirming what I keep saying in these type of threads. That most women do not consider what they are carrying to be a person. Obviously, the later the pregnancy becomes, the harder it is to not consider it a person - as you rightly point out. But you need to appreciate the other side of the same coin.
 
By us Catholics obviously. And I have thought through the ramifications. Justice is justice. If it is 1% of people or 99% it doesn’t matter.
 
Riman643 said:
By us Catholics obviously.
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When even a majority of Catholics have no problem with abortion? When the largest group of women associated with religion who have abortions are themselves Catholics?

You’ll first need to persuade everyone inside the tent before you leave it to start trying to persuade everyone else.
 
Freddy said:
So if you show a woman a few cells that she is carrying just after conception, then what? My guess would be that her attitude would be vastly different if you showed her a picture of what she was carrying just before birth.
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Have you seen an image of an aborted person? You can usually distinguish limbs, they are not “a few cells”.
 
AlbMagno said:
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Freddy:
So if you show a woman a few cells that she is carrying just after conception, then what? My guess would be that her attitude would be vastly different if you showed her a picture of what she was carrying just before birth.
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Have you seen an image of an aborted person? You can usually distinguish limbs, they are not “a few cells”.
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They certainly are ‘just after conception’. You even quoted me saying that. Which was the point I was making.
 
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Freddy said:
It’s only a majority decicion if it’s legal or not. The decision as to the morality of the act is for the individual to decide. Presumably you have come to a personal decision that what the church teaches is correct.
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Exactly.

A majority decision can make murder legal.

But a majority decision cannot make murder be non murder.
 
Why can’t we do both? Evangelize others and properly catechize our own?
 
Then you are modifying the premise, becase @(name removed by moderator) didn’t talk specifically about pictures “just after conception”.
 
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AlbMagno said:
Then you are modifying the premise, becase @(name removed by moderator) didn’t talk specifically about pictures “just after conception”.
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No. But I was. I was highlighting the difference. That was my point. That people view it differently at different stages.
 
Riman643 said:
Why can’t we do both? Evangelize others and properly catechize our own?
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You can. But imagine if the government said that having an injection against covid was going to be a requirement. And it was reported that more than half of the party in charge were saying that they personally thought it wasn’t required.

Can you see how people might react?
 
Cirdan_XII said:
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Freddy:
It’s only a majority decicion if it’s legal or not. The decision as to the morality of the act is for the individual to decide. Presumably you have come to a personal decision that what the church teaches is correct.
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Exactly.

A majority decision can make murder legal.

But a majority decision cannot make murder be non murder.
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We’re talking about the definition of murder. The legal definition doesn’t apply because it refers to ‘persons’. You are arguing that what a woman is carrying shortly after conception is a person. That’s an opinion. And therin lies the problem. People disagree with your opinion.
 
So you do agree that immediately after conception it is reasonable to describe them as ‘a few cells’?
 
I agree with you. It is a teaching. That some disagree doesn’t change the fact that it is a teaching. But the fact that people disagree is something you have to come to terms with. Especially, as I said, a small majority of Catholics themselves don’t follow Catholic teaching.
 
Abortion tourism isn’t a downside when the alternative is just regular abortion.
 
No doubt. But maybe you can see my point.

Nobody who isn’t Catholic is going to take much notice of Catholic teaching. It simply doesn’t apply. But if you, as a Catholic try to convince someone that the teaching is correct for everyone, then your view would carry much more weight if all Catholics themelves followed that teaching.

As it is, most have no problem with it, so even if you were correct and having an abortion was wrong in all circumstances, then your argument consequently carries very little weight.
 
Freddy said:
We’re talking about the definition of murder. The legal definition doesn’t apply because it refers to ‘persons’. You are arguing that what a woman is carrying shortly after conception is a person. That’s an opinion. And therin lies the problem. People disagree with your opinion.
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No.

Murder does not stop being murder just because you wish it so.

Do you also think that the holocaust was maybe a matter of opinion? Or slavery?
 
Cirdan_XII said:
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Freddy:
We’re talking about the definition of murder. The legal definition doesn’t apply because it refers to ‘persons’. You are arguing that what a woman is carrying shortly after conception is a person. That’s an opinion. And therin lies the problem. People disagree with your opinion.
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No.

Murder does not stop being murder just because you wish it so.

Do you also think that the holocaust was maybe a matter of opinion? Or slavery?
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Those two examples refer to people. Most women do not consider that which they are carrying shortly after conception to be a person. That you do is your opinion. There’s no getting around these two different views.

We have even had someone suggesting that graphic pictures of abortions be shown to women because they look like small babies in some cases. That obviously implies that people would react differently when it looks like a baby to when it doesn’t.

If you refuse to accept this then you will constantly be arguing past others.
 
That’s true. I know at least one other atheist on this forum who is against abortion in (I think) all cases. But we are talking Catholic beliefs on a Catholic forum.

But if you look at the figures here: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/22/american-religious-groups-vary-widely-in-their-views-of-abortion/...you’ll see that almost all denominations have a majority that accepts that abortion should be legal.

Include all Christians and the problem is a lot worse from your point of view.
 
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