Abortion should be Criminalized and Punishable under the law

[BornInMarch]

If there is any country in the entire world that ever treated abortion like that, it would be interesting to find out which country it was and how it turned out. Maybe some country in the Middle East???

Chile is such a country. As is Ireland and Poland to a lesser extant. If you get an abortion in Chile than you go to jail.

 

[BornInMarch]

Really??!! For a woman to have an abortion there will likely be several people involved in the entire process - let’s call them all accomplices and for the sake of argument let’s say 5 including the woman is involved.
Does the OP or you really believe that jailing for life or executing 5 million people a year is practical and just. I do not.

In short, so there is no misunderstanding, I do not believe that would be just.
Before you ask I am anyway against the death penalty.

Unless I have missed a post I haven’t seen the OP being specific in what punishment he/she wants to see imposed.

To start with, if a constitutional law was enacted to make Abortion illegal under all circumstances than the number of abortions would take a drastic drop.

In any case, I think that the woman undergoing the abortion is the chief orchestrator of the murder conspiracy against her child. After all, she paid the others to carry it out. So in other words, I wholeheartedly believe that every woman who willfully undergoes an abortion should be tried for murder and given a sentence befitting murder should she be proven guilty (plus the fact that the victim is a child, and the defendant’s own child, could both be considered aggravating factors).

That this might result in thousands or millions of convictions does not concern me: I also wish that every single Nazi who had a hand in the holocaust should have been tried and punished. Every single concentration/death camp guard, every single SS Personal, and so on. Just because a crime is common does not in and of itself make it any less heinous.

 

[thistle]

How many abortions would u anticipate in a future world where legislators had the support of voters to make abortion a criminal offence?

You say it would be unjust to punish those involved in killing a child - but can you explain why?

I said it would be impractical and unjust to jail such a person for life or execute them.
If anyone thinks that making abortion illegal would dramatically reduce the number of abortions then they are living in fantasy land!

 

[thistle]

**To start with, if a constitutional law was enacted to make Abortion illegal under all circumstances than the number of abortions would take a drastic drop. **

In any case, I think that the woman undergoing the abortion is the chief orchestrator of the murder conspiracy against her child. After all, she paid the others to carry it out. So in other words, I wholeheartedly believe that every woman who willfully undergoes an abortion should be tried for murder and given a sentence befitting murder should she be proven guilty (plus the fact that the victim is a child, and the defendant’s own child, could both be considered aggravating factors).

That this might result in thousands or millions of convictions does not concern me: I also wish that every single Nazi who had a hand in the holocaust should have been tried and punished. Every single concentration/death camp guard, every single SS Personal, and so on. Just because a crime is common does not in and of itself make it any less heinous.

That is nonsense. The number of illegal abortions would dramatically increase. A person would have to be really naive to think legalising abortion would result in a dramatic reduction.
This whole issue is completely impractical.

 

[Rau]

I said it would be impractical and unjust to jail such a person for life or execute them.
If anyone thinks that making abortion illegal would dramatically reduce the number of abortions then they are living in fantasy land!

Were voter opinions to be such as to make possible the criminalizing of abortion, it is clear that the number of abortions would be far less than now.

Could you clarify whether you hold the view that it would be unjust to criminalize abortion, and if so, give your reasons. There is no need to presume the penalty is death or life in prison.

 

[ShrodingersCat]

There was legislation that feminists for life wanted to get passed called the pregnant and parenting student support act (or something like that). If we gave single moms the support they NEED instead of making them feel like they must abort…no need to jail them. I’d jail people more like the guy from philadelphia instead (Gosnell).

Make abortion unthinkable and we can eventually make it a thing of the past.

I agree with this. I also think that while it is sound logic to say that abortion is murder, it is rather cold to sentence the women who turn to abortion to jail sentences. Abortion IS murder, but it is also a unique situation whereby the woman, who does not want to be pregnant, can only achieve that by killing the child. Note, I am not excusing it in any way, I’m just pointing out that the above poster is right, the best approach is to remove the reasons why she feels compelled to turn in that direction.

 

[thistle]

Were voter opinions to be such as to make possible the criminalizing of abortion, it is clear that the number of abortions would be far less than now.

Could you clarify whether you hold the view that it would be unjust to criminalize abortion, and if so, give your reasons. There is no need to presume the penalty is death or life in prison.

You obviously do not read my posts carefully. What I said would be unjust would be to jail for life or execute the women having abortions and anyone who helped them like their family members plus doctors, nurses etc. The whole idea of that is preposterous.

What is your idea of punishment??? The USA already has more people per capita in jail than any other country on the planet. Do you plan to increase that number by possibly millions per year. Ludicrous.

 

[Rau]

You obviously do not read my posts carefully. What I said would be unjust would be to jail for life or execute the women having abortions and anyone who helped them like their family members plus doctors, nurses etc. The whole idea of that is preposterous.

What is your idea of punishment??? The USA already has more people per capita in jail than any other country on the planet. Do you plan to increase that number by possibly millions per year. Ludicrous.

I read your post(s). I then asked you a different question, not the question you’ve already addressed.

Do you hold the view that it would be unjust to criminalize abortion? If so, could you give your reasons. There is no need to presume the penalty is death or life in prison.

 

[LightBound]

To start with, if a constitutional law was enacted to make Abortion illegal under all circumstances than the number of abortions would take a drastic drop.

In any case, I think that the woman undergoing the abortion is the chief orchestrator of the murder conspiracy against her child. After all, she paid the others to carry it out. So in other words, I wholeheartedly believe that every woman who willfully undergoes an abortion should be tried for murder and given a sentence befitting murder should she be proven guilty (plus the fact that the victim is a child, and the defendant’s own child, could both be considered aggravating factors).

That this might result in thousands or millions of convictions does not concern me: I also wish that every single Nazi who had a hand in the holocaust should have been tried and punished. Every single concentration/death camp guard, every single SS Personal, and so on. Just because a crime is common does not in and of itself make it any less heinous.

Do you help in any way at Crisis Pregnancy Centers? By financial donations or time? Do you in anyway help with post-abortive women’s programs by donating financially or with prayers? Have you spoken with counselors at post-abortion programs to see what kind of women have sought abortion, why they do it, and how it affects them for decades later? Do you even care? I ask this because your posts here are coming across as a “round up the villagers and gather the torches and pitchforks, we’re going to hunt down those women and lock them in the dungeon” instead of showing any kind of actual concern offering women alternatives to abortion.

 

[Rau]

… Have you spoken with counselors at post-abortion programs to see what kind of women have sought abortion, why they do it, and how it affects them for decades later?

This is a good question to ask as it directs our attention to the widely differing circumstances and motives for abortion. Of course, the inherent wrong of abortion is present in every abortion, but just as in the civil law, culpability may vary.

Surveys have been done to identify the breath of reasons and motivations for abortion. While I don’t have a link at hand to post, my memory of those I saw is such that a sizeable proportion of those choosing this course are not in crisis, but rather face a pregnancy that is unplanned and unacceptable at that time. If they understand what they are doing, then this subset has far greater culpability than those truly in crisis.

 

[BornInMarch]

You obviously do not read my posts carefully. What I said would be unjust would be to jail for life or execute the women having abortions and anyone who helped them like their family members plus doctors, nurses etc. The whole idea of that is preposterous.

What is your idea of punishment??? The USA already has more people per capita in jail than any other country on the planet. Do you plan to increase that number by possibly millions per year. Ludicrous.

Why would it be unjust? Why? Is it because you don’t believe that the unborn is a person, or do you believe the unborn simply does not deserve to be protected, or do you just believe women are incapable of doing evil things? Why is it “ludicrous”?

A high prison population is bad, but the solution isn’t to not punish heinous crimes. The solution is to enact programs within prison that reduce recidivism.

 

[IWantGod]

Why would it be unjust? Why? Is it because you don’t believe that the unborn is a person, or do you believe the unborn simply does not deserve to be protected, or do you just believe women are incapable of doing evil things? Why is it “ludicrous”?

A high prison population is bad, but the solution isn’t to not punish heinous crimes. The solution is to enact programs within prison that reduce recidivism.

I am against abortion, but have you ever thought that somethings no-matter how valuable or sacred just cannot practically be protected by the law?

Perhaps the only practical protection against abortion is teaching people the value and sacredness of human life at all stages of development.

The problem here is ignorance rather than a malicious intent to murder.

 

[BornInMarch]

I agree with this. I also think that while it is sound logic to say that abortion is murder, it is rather cold to sentence the women who turn to abortion to jail sentences. Abortion IS murder, but it is also a unique situation whereby the woman, who does not want to be pregnant, can only achieve that by killing the child. Note, I am not excusing it in any way, I’m just pointing out that the above poster is right, the best approach is to remove the reasons why she feels compelled to turn in that direction.

There seems to be some confusion.

I’m not suggesting legal protection for the unborn INSTEAD of support networks for struggling mothers. I am suggesting that we do both; first remove the reasons why most feel compelled to procure an abortion, and then pass laws once they have no excuse.

If we argue for doing away with abortion, then claim that women who procure abortions should be allowed to go scot free after killing their daughters and sons, it will appear as though “the sanctity of human life” wasn’t the primary concern for us.

We are pro-life, defenders of life, so if we enshrine the sanctity of human life into law than we will have to enforce it or else it will mean nothing.

 

[Rau]

I am against abortion, but have you ever thought that somethings no-matter how valuable or sacred just cannot practically be protected by the law?

There absolutely are challenges in enforcing such a law. Born people go missing, or die (naturally, or unnaturally) - but generally the authorities get to know about it. This is not so easily assured in the case of abortion. But I note that the legal basis for permitting abortion is not simply that it is too hard to enforce a proscription, but a view that the mother has certain rights (at least till some point) that outweigh any rights of the offspring.

Perhaps the only practical protection against abortion is teaching people the value and sacredness of human life at all stages of development.

It is infeasible that the law could be changed until a sufficient share of the people concur with the change.

The problem here is ignorance rather than a malicious intent to murder.

The motivations for abortions, and the understanding of what is being done, vary widely. It would be a mistake to think that all those who abort do so with a clear conscience (or the reverse).

 

[thistle]

I read your post(s). I then asked you a different question, not the question you’ve already addressed.

Do you hold the view that it would be unjust to criminalize abortion? If so, could you give your reasons. There is no need to presume the penalty is death or life in prison.

While I am absolutely against abortion I firmly believe that criminalising it will make no difference at all. Only a fool would believe that numbers will dramatically fall. It will simply go underground as it was before. If you check the historic data you will see that roughly the same number of illegal abortions took place annually prior to it being legalised.

 

[BornInMarch]

While I am absolutely against abortion I firmly believe that criminalising it will make no difference at all. Only a fool would believe that numbers will dramatically fall. It will simply go underground as it was before. If you check the historic data you will see that roughly the same number of illegal abortions took place annually prior to it being legalised.

Do you have any sources to back that up?

 

[Rau]

While I am absolutely against abortion I firmly believe that criminalising it will make no difference at all. Only a fool would believe that numbers will dramatically fall. It will simply go underground as it was before. If you check the historic data you will see that roughly the same number of illegal abortions took place annually prior to it being legalised.

Evidently it won’t be criminalised prior to a shift in public opinion. My question is: would it be unjust to criminalize abortion?

 

[thistle]

Do you have any sources to back that up?

Try googling. That’s what I did!!

 

[thistle]

Evidently it won’t be criminalised prior to a shift in public opinion. My question is: would it be unjust to criminalize abortion?

Yes.

I suppose next you want to criminalise homosexuality, adultery etc etc, in fact anything that is a mortal sin??!!

 

[PRmerger]

Yes.

I suppose next you want to criminalise homosexuality, adultery etc etc, in fact anything that is a mortal sin??!!

I see your point, but I don’t think we should treat abortion in the same way legally as we do those ^^ immoral acts.

I think we should treat abortion in the same way as we do women who kill their babies 1-2 days after birth–understand that this is illegal (we must protect the most vulnerable legally!) but take in to account the mitigating circumstances.