Abortion should be Criminalized and Punishable under the law

[Mary_Gail_36]

Do you feel the same way if a woman, or girl, kills her 1 day old baby?

I think the difference is that a one day old baby is visible, touchable. He can cry. The mother of the unborn child might not have recognized the humanity of her child.

I will always remember years ago when I was 15, my classmate had an abortion. I remember her crying after the fact. I don’t ever remember anyone crying as pained as she. She kept repeating, “he had arms, he had legs”

I think that Pope John Paul described the utter helplessness of an unborn baby, that they could not even cry to protect themselves.

 

[PRmerger]

I think the difference is that a one day old baby is visible, touchable. He can cry. The mother of the unborn child might not have recognized the humanity of her child.

I will always remember years ago when I was 15, my classmate had an abortion. I remember her crying after the fact. I don’t ever remember anyone crying as pained as she. She kept repeating, “he had arms, he had legs”

I think that Pope John Paul described the utter helplessness of an unborn baby, that they could not even cry to protect themselves.

I understand the emotional part of your response here.

But I am not understanding the logic.

You’re saying that something should be punishable because the victim is…visible? And human-looking?

When the victim is not particularly human in appearance, it’s permissible to let there be no punishment?

 

[Rau]

I think the difference is that a one day old baby is visible, touchable. He can cry. The mother of the unborn child might not have recognized the humanity of her child.

BUT, if we are assuming that public attitudes have moved sufficiently to enable abortion to be declared a criminal act, that surely ought to influence mothers. Their act then is one in defiance of the law (supported by the weight of public opinion) not simply a failure to “recognise humanity”. Of course, this leaves open the potential for diminished culpability for that subset who pursue abortion while in crisis.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I understand the emotional part of your response here.

But I am not understanding the logic.

You’re saying that something should be punishable because the victim is…visible? And human-looking?

When the victim is not particularly human in appearance, it’s permissible to let there be no punishment?

No. It has to do with intent and consent.

When someone kills an infant, they see that it is an infant, they can touch the infant they can hear the infant crying. They have knowledge of the infant being alive and human. Of course there can be mitigating factors, perhaps the person was delusional and did not realize that the baby was a baby.

With abortion, the mother has convinced herself that what she is aborting isn’t a human or a person. How many discussions have there been on CAF that someone insists that the baby isn’t a person etc etc?. My class mate thought she was getting rid of a lump of cells. She didn’t completely realize the humanity of her child until after the fact.

I don’t know if you have seen the original film Alfie. It was made in the 1960’s. Alfie is a cad who impregnates a woman, and then insists she has an abortion. Alfie then sees the baby after the fact. He runs away in horror, and then tells his friend what he saw;

here’s the quote:

ALFIE: I could’ve dropped on the spot with the shock. All I was expecting to see was — Well, come to think of it, I don’t hardly know what I was expecting to see. Certainly not this perfectly formed being. I- I half expected it to cry out … And as it lay there, so quiet, so still, it quite touched me. And I started praying or something, saying things like, uh, ‘God help me,’ and, uh, things like that. And then I started to cry. The tears were running down my face. Oh, slowly, like I was a kid myself … Y’know, it don’t half bring it home to you what you are when you see a helpless little thing like that lying in your own hands. He’d been quite perfect. And I thought to myself, 'Y’know what, Alfie? Y’know what you’ve done? You murdered him.'

 

[PRmerger]

No. It has to do with intent and consent.

When someone kills an infant, they see that it is an infant, they can touch the infant they can hear the infant crying. They have knowledge of the infant being alive and human. Of course there can be mitigating factors, perhaps the person was delusional and did not realize that the baby was a baby.

With abortion, the mother has convinced herself that what she is aborting isn’t a human or a person. How many discussions have there been on CAF that someone insists that the baby isn’t a person etc etc?. My class mate thought she was getting rid of a lump of cells. She didn’t completely realize the humanity of her child until after the fact.

I find this to be a very treacherous paradigm.

“It’s not punishable if the person who did the killing didn’t think she was actually killing a person”.

Very treacherous indeed.

 

[Listener]

If you would like to live in a country where women go to jail for abortions, you could move to El Salvador. Apparently, it’s even possible to spend 40 years in prison for having a miscarriage. No thank you. If abortion ever becomes illegal again, it should be the providers who are punished, as it always was in the USA before the 1970’s.

 

[utah_rose]

? Married couples seek abortion,too…it’s not just something unmarried people do.

.

. I think I read that some married women do that could afford another child but don’t want another because of career choices or selfish reasons. I believe that the CEO of PP had one as she felt three children were enough. Apparently she never considered just putting up the baby for adoption.

I think that first defunding PP would be a good beginning. Secondly forcing all PP centers to have rigid “surprise” health inspections, and forcing abortionists to have medical credentials at a hospital would be a good thing. Also, in depth investigations, fines, and closing of centers where women have had serious complications and even death. Perhaps if this was publicized there’d be less centers open and women might consider alternatives.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I find this to be a very treacherous paradigm.

“It’s not punishable if the person who did the killing didn’t think she was actually killing a person”.

Very treacherous indeed.

I’m going to step away now. I’ve been on CAF for over 11 years, and I have always written in defense of the unborn.

The Church teaches that there are 3 components of Mortal sin, one of them being knowledge. A woman can KNOW a two day old infant is an infant, and be culpable of the baby’s death. A woman can also be ignorant that her 12 week old baby is actually a baby, and not be culpable to the same extent as the woman who actually saw the baby and killed it anyway.

Abortion is legal because people do not recognize the humanity of the child. People have abortions because they don’t recognize the humanity of the child.

Often the deciding factor for a mother is seeing her child on sonogram. When they see the baby, they usually don’t have an abortion.

My oldest is 15. I only had one sonogram for him. He was about 16 weeks old, and I could recognize all of him basically.

My next child was 8 weeks old when I had a sonogram. Her sonogram picture shows a basic baby shape, a head and little arms. I was a pro-life practicing Catholic, and I was astonished to see how well formed she was so early.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m going to step away now. I’ve been on CAF for over 11 years, and I have always written in defense of the unborn.

The Church teaches that there are 3 components of Mortal sin, one of them being knowledge. A woman can KNOW a two day old infant is an infant, and be culpable of the baby’s death. A woman can also be ignorant that her 12 week old baby is actually a baby, and not be culpable to the same extent as the woman who actually saw the baby and killed it anyway.

Abortion is legal because people do not recognize the humanity of the child. People have abortions because they don’t recognize the humanity of the child.

Often the deciding factor for a mother is seeing her child on sonogram. When they see the baby, they usually don’t have an abortion.

My oldest is 15. I only had one sonogram for him. He was about 16 weeks old, and I could recognize all of him basically.

My next child was 8 weeks old when I had a sonogram. Her sonogram picture shows a basic baby shape, a head and little arms. I was a pro-life practicing Catholic, and I was astonished to see how well formed she was so early.

All of the above is great apologia for a different conversation.

It’s a nonsequitur for this discussion however.

 

[Qoeleth]

Yes- abortion should be illegal, and punishable, in precisely the same way murder is punished.

It’s killing a human. Simple.

Especially doctors who profit from it. They should be put away for life.

Some regular murderers might kill in anger, passion, fear, etc. But abortionist doctors are cold blooded murders, who kill innocent children for money.

I would also support punishment and imprisonment people who speak out in favour of abortion, as being conspirators and promoters of murder, as well as all ‘pro-murder’ politicians.

The only people who could (in some cases) be excused, would be the actual mothers, who are sometimes also victims of the rotten, Satanic system which has allowed such a thing to occur. But not for any father who recommended it…

Punishing them severely now would actually be a great kindness, insofar as it might save the souls from the fire the doesn’t go out and the worm that doesn’t die for all eternity. Better that the body is cast in prison for a few years, than that the body and soul are cast together for destruction in the fires of hell.

Excuse me for speaking strongly- but this issue is not like protecting the ozone layer or banning cigarette or saving the whales. It’s real MURDER of real children.

 

[Rau]

…The Church teaches that there are 3 components of Mortal sin, one of them being knowledge. A woman can KNOW a two day old infant is an infant, and be culpable of the baby’s death. A woman can also be ignorant that her 12 week old baby is actually a baby, and not be culpable to the same extent as the woman who actually saw the baby and killed it anyway.

See post #85. This argument is hard to sustain if society progresses to the point of criminalizing abortion.

Abortion is legal because people do not recognize the humanity of the child. People have abortions because they don’t recognize the humanity of the child.

Not the reasoning of Roe vs. Wade.

Often the deciding factor for a mother is seeing her child on sonogram. When they see the baby, they usually don’t have an abortion…

Pro-life groups in some jurisdictions have argued for the review of a sonogram to be mandatory prior to abortion. This is rejected by pro-choice groups. God forbid the facts get in the way of this “right” to abort.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

See post #85. This argument is hard to sustain if society progresses to the point of criminalizing abortion.

Not the reasoning of Roe vs. Wade.

Pro-life groups in some jurisdictions have argued for the review of a sonogram to be mandatory prior to abortion. This is rejected by pro-choice groups. God forbid the facts get in the way of this “right” to abort.

Actually, the idea that the child is not a person is part of Roe. Blackmon argued that we didn’t know if an unborn was a person, abortion should be permitted. He argued that if it was known that the unborn was a person, then no right to abortion could exist.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

In the days when abortion was illegal, were there any woman who were imprisoned due to procurement of abortion?

I don’t believe in th US, no. It, in the past would be the providers.

 

[Rau]

Actually, the idea that the child is not a person is part of Roe. Blackmon argued that we didn’t know if an unborn was a person, abortion should be permitted. He argued that if it was known that the unborn was a person, then no right to abortion could exist.

You referenced “humanity” not the nebulous notion of personhood. Regardless, that is not a pivotal issue on Roe v. Wade.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

All of the above is great apologia for a different conversation.

It’s a nonsequitur for this discussion however.

I don’t know, I think culpability, intent, knowledge, mitigating circumstances etc are on topic.

There might be mitigating factors for a woman to kill her 2 day old infant, but lack of knowledge that the victim is a baby isn’t usually one of them.

My classmate had an abortion not knowing that her child was a baby. She was under the impression that it was a clump of cells. If she knew and understood,she might not have had the abortion.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t know, I think culpability, intent, knowledge, mitigating circumstances etc are on topic.

There might be mitigating factors for a woman to kill her 2 day old infant, but lack of knowledge that the victim is a baby isn’t usually one of them.

My classmate had an abortion not knowing that her child was a baby. She was under the impression that it was a clump of cells. If she knew and understood,she might not have had the abortion.

So, to be consistent: if a slave owner killed his slave, it would be a mitigating factor if he didn’t realize that the slave was a human being?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

So, to be consistent: if a slave owner killed his slave, it would be a mitigating factor if he didn’t realize that the slave was a human being?

So my class mate was criminally guilty of murder, even though she was 15, and not aware of fetal development, and thought that abortion was something that made her “not pregnant anymore”

I’m not getting your arguments.

You are saying that a woman who gets an abortion should receive the same CRIMINAL sentence as a woman tho kills a 2 day old baby.

There are factors that would mitigate the CRIMINAL guilt of the woman who aborts that would not necessary apply to a woman who kills her 2 day old baby. Mainly, she cannot argue that she did not know it was a baby.

The entire abortion industry uses euphemisms regarding what pregnancy is. They don’t use terms like embryo or fetus. They use terms like products of conception. I’m not arguing that the baby is not a baby and not worthy of life. I’m saying for a criminal conviction equal to killing a 2 day old baby, the woman has to KNOW she’s carrying a baby and with that knowledge, goes ahead and aborts anyway.

Here is an example. a number of years ago a father shot his daughter because he thought she was an intruder. Should he receive the same sentence as the guy who just got convicted for leaving his baby in the car to die in the heat?

And adding, about 20 or so ago sidewalk counselors would shout at women going into the abortion clinics to not kill their babies. I was told this by someone who this happened to, even thought she wasn’t having an abortion. That technique didn’t work, what works is when sidewalk counselors listen to the women and let them know that their baby is a baby, and where they can go for help. That works better.

I don’t know of anyone getting prosecuted in the past for their own abortion in the US.
Abortionists, yes. I’ve seen documentation for malpractice cases against abortionists, where they lose their license.

We aren’t close to a culture of life. We are going to argue that post abortive women need to go to jail?

 

[Rau]

I don’t know, I think culpability, intent, knowledge, mitigating circumstances etc are on topic.

There might be mitigating factors for a woman to kill her 2 day old infant, but lack of knowledge that the victim is a baby isn’t usually one of them.

My classmate had an abortion not knowing that her child was a baby. She was under the impression that it was a clump of cells. If she knew and understood,she might not have had the abortion.

It is a mistake to think that all who abort are as ignorant and naive as your erstwhile 15 year old school mate. Stats about who aborts and why were given earlier. Clearly a proportion are not naive pressured children in crisis. The ignorance argument will be even less applicable when we consider an environment in which abortion has been criminalised with popular support for such a change (which would be a necessary precondition).

And yes, of course mitigating factors may still arise.

 

[BornInMarch]

Here is an example. a number of years ago a father shot his daughter because he thought she was an intruder. Should he receive the same sentence as the guy who just got convicted for leaving his baby in the car to die in the heat?

I don’t know if it should be the same sentence, but I do believe that both should have to spend at least some amount of time in prison for manslaughter and criminal negligence.

If a young or teenage girl gets an abortion, than she should be tried as a child and receive a child’s sentence (such as probation, mandatory therapy, or [at the very worst] imprisonment in a Youth Detention Center). If she was forced into it by her parents or her boyfriend, than those people get arrested instead of her.

When I say that we should send women who get abortions to prison for murdering their children I am talking about adult women who is acting freely and who either wants to avoid the scandal of a wedlock childbirth or who doesn’t want to deal with the hassle of pregnancy.

 

[rose_kelly]

I agree, I’m lucky to be in area with an archdiocese level prison ministry. It advocates for criminal justice reform that stresses rehabilitation over punishment. I can’t see the Church ever advocating for punishment for abortion. Yet I can see the Church fighting against it.

So can I.

Here is what Pope John Paul said to post abortion women.
priestsforlife.org/postabortion/ev99.htm