Abortion should be Criminalized and Punishable under the law

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thistle said:
Yes.

I suppose next you want to criminalise homosexuality, adultery etc etc, in fact anything that is a mortal sin??!!
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None of those things result in a human being killed; that’s the difference.
 
thistle said:
Yes.

I suppose next you want to criminalise homosexuality, adultery etc etc, in fact anything that is a mortal sin??!!
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I’m surprised that you more readily compare abortion and homosexuality - the latter being immoral but arguably victimless behaviour - than abortion and, say, infanticide. Isn’t abortion more akin to infanticide? Or do you see something lacking in the unborn that lessens their claim to the same respect and protections due a newborn? **
 
PRmerger said:
I see your point, but I don’t think we should treat abortion in the same way legally as we do those ^^ immoral acts.

I think we should treat abortion in the same way as we do women who kill their babies 1-2 days after birth–understand that this is illegal (we must protect the most vulnerable legally!) but take in to account the mitigating circumstances.
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I’m of the opinion that women, or more likely girls, should be counselled and educated, NOT punished.
 
thistle said:
I’m of the opinion that women, or more likely girls, should be counselled and educated, NOT punished.
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Not even if they knowingly and freely take another human’s life? Would letting them go scot-free not devalue the lives of those aborted?
 
BornInMarch said:
Not even if they knowingly and freely take another human’s life? Would letting them go scot-free not devalue the lives of those aborted?
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I would be willing to bet that most do not willingly get abortions but a lot of pressure is put on them and many are even in my view not mature enough to fully understand what they are doing.

By the way I would like you to show me any Church document that states any woman/girl having an abortion should be punished.
 
thistle said:
I would be willing to bet that most do not willingly get abortions but a lot of pressure is put on them and many are even in my view not mature enough to fully understand what they are doing.

By the way I would like you to show me any Church document that states any woman/girl having an abortion should be punished.
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There is no need to bet thistle. Stats are available.
  • over 58% of abortions are had by women 20-29 years of age.
  • Those under 15 account for 4 in 10,000 abortions (0.04%).
  • 60% of women seeking abortions had prior live births.
    Guttmacher Institute figures for 2012.
It is a mistake to think that abortions are overwhelmingly pursued by “young girls, pressured into it”. 75% of women cite interference with work, school or other responsibilities among their reasons to abort. 50% said they do not want to be a single parent or are having marital difficulties.

And to your last point thistle, are you suggesting that punishment for wrongdoing ought not apply unless the Church advocates it? I’d like you to show me a church document that proposes that! 😉
 
There is utopia and then there is the real world. We are not going to get all people to believe that aborting a fetus is a crime. We’d have to overturn Roe v Wade. It’s unlikely that the dems will allow the appointment of a conservative judge to SCOTUS considering the fact that the GOP blocked Pres Obama’s nomination. We need to accept that abortion is legal and come up with an approach that reduces the need for abortions. And that must start with our members.

I would argue that education is the best thing. Mandating abstinence without teaching kids the biology behind sexual attraction, sexual intercourse and conception, etc doesn’t work. And if they find out that their sex education classes were incomplete or inadequate, they will categorize it all as suspect. Also, using scare tactics in education just creates neurotic sex partners. We all know that spouses who are not well adjusted when it comes to sex make less than optimal bed mates (which can lead to infidelity and divorce). So we have to be frank. We have to tell them the truth, We have to lay it all on the line. And if we adults provided good role modeling and education throughout their childhoods, most of our kids will approach sex, sexual partners and pregnancy with the respect they deserve. We wont have to force them through laws and mandates to do the right thing.

That being said, one thing we as adults do that is so confusing for kids, is that we are inconsistent role models. Our church is very consistent when it comes to life issues. It’s pro-life across the board. Our church has asked our govt to put more $$ into staving off poverty and into combating climate change. Our church regularly protests outside of prisons during executions. Our church advocates vigorously for compassionate end of life care in lieu of euthanasia. Our church has called for more regulation to stem gun violence. Yet we practitioners of our faith are often inconsistent in the ways we approach these basic life issues. We model wiggle room. We model dissent. We will argue that the science on climate change is faulty. Or the pope is wrong about how availability of jails takes away our need to execute people. Or the church is wrong about end of life decisions when so many people are suffering. It’s hard to be Catholic. It’s hard to give your $$ to the govt so it can fight climate change and poverty. And it’s hard for people not to have abortions when they feel they have no other options. We all need to model consistency. Without that, we wont resolve the abortion issue.

Not everyone is Catholic and not everyone believes abortion is a crime. But that should not stop us modeling consistent pro-life approaches to life and community.
 
Rau said:
There is no need to bet thistle. Stats are available.
  • over 58% of abortions are had by women 20-29 years of age.
  • Those under 15 account for 4 in 10,000 abortions (0.04%).
  • 60% of women seeking abortions had prior live births.
    Guttmacher Institute figures for 2012.
It is a mistake to think that abortions are overwhelmingly pursued by “young girls, pressured into it”. 75% of women cite interference with work, school or other responsibilities among their reasons to abort. 50% said they do not want to be a single parent or are having marital difficulties.

And to your last point thistle, are you suggesting that punishment for wrongdoing ought not apply unless the Church advocates it? I’d like you to show me a church document that proposes that! 😉
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What can we do to reduce these numbers? Free federally funded childcare and before /aftercare? Free federally funded ongoing marriage counseling? Free federally funded OB care for women who make too much $ for medicaid but not enough to afford their own medical insurance or care. Many people are in debt or are struggling to keep their heads above water. Abortions are cost effective. We need to make other options free. It’s not enough to say, you got pregnant, now you have to deal with it. That attitude is not at all Christ like and it’s akin to pretending reality does not exist. The reality is that we need to address the drivers of abortion and in many many cases, the driver is lack of resources.

Also, we must remember that there are many people in America who do not think abortions should be illegal. So we must address the issue in today’s reality. We must find a way to reduce the need for abortions. Also, the pope just extended the Year of Mercy as it pertains to abortions. If a woman asks for forgiveness, she is healed in the eyes of God and in eyes of the members of his church. If she asks for forgiveness, we must grant it and let it go. But that does not stop us from trying to mitigate the need for abortions through resource assistance, modeling and education. Let;s stop trying to punish and hurt and instead assist and guide.
 
thistle said:
I would be willing to bet that most do not willingly get abortions but a lot of pressure is put on them and many are even in my view not mature enough to fully understand what they are doing.

By the way I would like you to show me any Church document that states any woman/girl having an abortion should be punished.
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On the first point, I would say that youth is already a mitigating factor (its illegal for judges to sentence minors to life imprisonment) and that if someone gets an abortion because of threats or duress than the person forcing her hand should take her place in the jail cell.

On the second point, St. Basil stated that women who get abortions should have to do ten years of penance. And he was actually more merciful than his contemporaries, as before him the church fathers thought that abortion was an unforgivable sin. Additionally a logical consequence can be drawn by two church teachings: the teaching that killing an unborn child is just as much murder as killing an adult, and the teaching that murderers should be punished by the law.
 
anthrogirl said:
…We need to make other options free. It’s not enough to say, you got pregnant, now you have to deal with it. That attitude is not at all Christ like and it’s akin to pretending reality does not exist. The reality is that we need to address the drivers of abortion and in many many cases, the driver is lack of resources.
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No doubt greater social supports would be a necessary prerequisite to underpin the change in people’s attitude necessary for any change in the law.
Let;s stop trying to punish and hurt and instead assist and guide.
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Should the time arrive where abortion is criminalised, it will not be an “either/or” situation. The social support will at that point be improved, but transgressors will expect a punishment if caught.
 
DaddyGirl said:
I’m actually surprised you say homosexuality is arguably “victimless” behavior.
I was under the impression that many Catholics–at least, many on this forum–feel there are collateral-damage victims when someone expresses their homosexual orientation in the same way a heterosexual expresses and lives out theirs.

Isn’t that one of the reasons many here give for not legalizing same-sex marriage?
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I said “arguably victimless”. That means - I can see why a person who thinks SSM is good might argue that it is victimless.

It is rather more difficult to argue abortion is victimless.
 
DaddyGirl said:
One flaw of your logic here is…you are basing your opinion partly on the Christian bible–
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Understandable observation. It seems to me that the assertion that the offspring of humans is also human is self-evident. That the Bible lends support is comforting, but not necessary to make the assertion.
 
DaddyGirl said:
One flaw of your logic here is…you are basing your opinion partly on the Christian bible–one set of scripture for one specific religion.
If everyone in the world followed the teachings of Christianity and believed the Christian canon was true and correct and agreed on the interpretation of it, then maybe you would have a point.
But they do not.
As I think someone else here might have said…it’s like asking you to wear a burkha, because it’s in the Quran. But why should you follow the laws of the Quran if you are not Muslim?

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If you kept reading you would see that I also listed scientific support for the unborn being a living human being.

Opposition to legalized abortion is not restricted to Christianity, or even to religion. “Secular Prolife”, “Feminists for Life”, and “Humanists for life” are all non-religious organizations that both believe the the world would be better off without abortion.
 
Legal or illegal abortion I doubt there are any regiistered Catholic supported Pro-Life Organisations that would advocate punishment of the woman, and if ever they did they certainly wouldn’t have my support.
 
rose_kelly said:
Legal or illegal abortion I doubt there are any regiistered Catholic supported Pro-Life Organisations that would advocate punishment of the woman, and if ever they did they certainly wouldn’t have my support.
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I agree, I’m lucky to be in area with an archdiocese level prison ministry. It advocates for criminal justice reform that stresses rehabilitation over punishment. I can’t see the Church ever advocating for punishment for abortion. Yet I can see see the Church fighting against it.
 
anthrogirl said:
… I can’t see the Church ever advocating for punishment for abortion.
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Can you expand on your reasons eg. Why the Church might oppose punishment for abortion, but support it for infanticide? I’m not expressing a view here, but interested to understand your thinking.
 
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