T
The_Barrister
Guest
Sorry, but no, you’re not.
The qualifiying statement takes you out of the category.
- Status
The qualifiying statement takes you out of the category.
T
The_Barrister
Guest
And who decides a) that they’re suffering; b) that the suffering is to the level where they must be killed; and c) the method of their death?
You?
They’ve done nothing to deserve death at your hands except to be imperfect in some way. What gives you the right to kill them?
Okay, so we choose to kill those who have a 99% chance of “suffering” and dying within 2 weeks after death. How much further until we get to a 95% chance at 3 months? 90% chance at 2 years?
We’re all going to die someday. We don’t have the right to decide to kill someone before that time, and we certainly don’t have the right to use a scalpel and dismember them.
J
Jacksquat89
Guest
The Barrister:
Since the legalization of abortion throughout the U.S. in 1973, abortion services have become more widely accessible and knowledge of them has grown. As a result, the overwhelming majority of abortions are performed in the first trimester of pregnancy. For a number of reasons, however, abortion after the first trimester remains a necessary option for some women.
Unfortunately, anti-choice activists seek to limit access to abortion through, among other means, laws imposing a fixed date for fetal viability and bans on certain procedures, many of which could limit access to abortion during all stages of pregnancy.
In fact, the same anti-choice activists who would limit access to abortions after the first trimester also oppose access to abortion in the first trimester by advancing numerous restrictions, including parental involvement laws and mandatory delay laws. Also, by asserting their bias at a local level through picketing doctors’ homes and offices, clinic blockades, threats of violence against doctors, and the misapplication of zoning laws, etc., they create a climate so threatening that the number of qualified providers is diminished. These actions endanger the health of women and the right of physicians to determine the most appropriate treatment for their clients.
The Number of Abortions after the First Trimester Is Relatively Small
Between 1997 and 2000, the number of abortions in the United States fell from 1,186,039 to 857,475 (CDC, 2000). The CDC estimates that 58 percent of legal abortions occur within the first eight weeks of gestation, and 88 percent are performed within the first 13 weeks. Only 1.4 percent occur after 20 weeks (CDC, 2000).
Since the nationwide legalization of abortion in 1973, the proportion of abortions performed after the first trimester has decreased because of increased access to and knowledge about safe, legal abortion services (Gold, 1990).
Various Factors Require Women to Have Abortions after the First Trimester
The fetus cannot feel pain, since it does not have a developed brain at that time. The brains develops to it’s full potential at the close of the gestational period. It is not fully developed until shortly before the the final stages prior to birth. Even if Nathans fetus had a brain, it would not be able to feel pain since it could not be fully developed within the twelve weeks of human gestation. This is because well formed nerve ending/fibers which can transmit pain impulses along the spinal cord to the brain and chemical neurotransmitters capable of carrying the signal form the neuron to neruon indicating pain or the presence of discomfuture are not developed and the neural pathways which transmit the pain impulses are not mature enough to function until mid pregnancy or later. There is no record of neurological development in a fetus in the first trimester.
Source: The Abortion Handbook
Need more sources because I have more
Abortion After the First Trimester
Since the legalization of abortion throughout the U.S. in 1973, abortion services have become more widely accessible and knowledge of them has grown. As a result, the overwhelming majority of abortions are performed in the first trimester of pregnancy. For a number of reasons, however, abortion after the first trimester remains a necessary option for some women.
Unfortunately, anti-choice activists seek to limit access to abortion through, among other means, laws imposing a fixed date for fetal viability and bans on certain procedures, many of which could limit access to abortion during all stages of pregnancy.
In fact, the same anti-choice activists who would limit access to abortions after the first trimester also oppose access to abortion in the first trimester by advancing numerous restrictions, including parental involvement laws and mandatory delay laws. Also, by asserting their bias at a local level through picketing doctors’ homes and offices, clinic blockades, threats of violence against doctors, and the misapplication of zoning laws, etc., they create a climate so threatening that the number of qualified providers is diminished. These actions endanger the health of women and the right of physicians to determine the most appropriate treatment for their clients.
The Number of Abortions after the First Trimester Is Relatively Small
Between 1997 and 2000, the number of abortions in the United States fell from 1,186,039 to 857,475 (CDC, 2000). The CDC estimates that 58 percent of legal abortions occur within the first eight weeks of gestation, and 88 percent are performed within the first 13 weeks. Only 1.4 percent occur after 20 weeks (CDC, 2000).
Since the nationwide legalization of abortion in 1973, the proportion of abortions performed after the first trimester has decreased because of increased access to and knowledge about safe, legal abortion services (Gold, 1990).
Various Factors Require Women to Have Abortions after the First Trimester
The fetus cannot feel pain, since it does not have a developed brain at that time. The brains develops to it’s full potential at the close of the gestational period. It is not fully developed until shortly before the the final stages prior to birth. Even if Nathans fetus had a brain, it would not be able to feel pain since it could not be fully developed within the twelve weeks of human gestation. This is because well formed nerve ending/fibers which can transmit pain impulses along the spinal cord to the brain and chemical neurotransmitters capable of carrying the signal form the neuron to neruon indicating pain or the presence of discomfuture are not developed and the neural pathways which transmit the pain impulses are not mature enough to function until mid pregnancy or later. There is no record of neurological development in a fetus in the first trimester.
Source: The Abortion Handbook
Need more sources because I have more
J
Jacksquat89
Guest
Abortion After the First Trimester
Since the legalization of abortion throughout the U.S. in 1973, abortion services have become more widely accessible and knowledge of them has grown. As a result, the overwhelming majority of abortions are performed in the first trimester of pregnancy. For a number of reasons, however, abortion after the first trimester remains a necessary option for some women.
Unfortunately, anti-choice activists seek to limit access to abortion through, among other means, laws imposing a fixed date for fetal viability and bans on certain procedures, many of which could limit access to abortion during all stages of pregnancy.
In fact, the same anti-choice activists who would limit access to abortions after the first trimester also oppose access to abortion in the first trimester by advancing numerous restrictions, including parental involvement laws and mandatory delay laws. Also, by asserting their bias at a local level through picketing doctors’ homes and offices, clinic blockades, threats of violence against doctors, and the misapplication of zoning laws, etc., they create a climate so threatening that the number of qualified providers is diminished. These actions endanger the health of women and the right of physicians to determine the most appropriate treatment for their clients.
The Number of Abortions after the First Trimester Is Relatively Small
Between 1997 and 2000, the number of abortions in the United States fell from 1,186,039 to 857,475 (CDC, 2000). The CDC estimates that 58 percent of legal abortions occur within the first eight weeks of gestation, and 88 percent are performed within the first 13 weeks. Only 1.4 percent occur after 20 weeks (CDC, 2000).
Since the nationwide legalization of abortion in 1973, the proportion of abortions performed after the first trimester has decreased because of increased access to and knowledge about safe, legal abortion services (Gold, 1990).
Various Factors Require Women to Have Abortions after the First Trimester
The fetus cannot feel pain, since it does not have a developed brain at that time. The brains develops to it’s full potential at the close of the gestational period. It is not fully developed until shortly before the the final stages prior to birth. Even if Nathans fetus had a brain, it would not be able to feel pain since it could not be fully developed within the twelve weeks of human gestation. This is because well formed nerve ending/fibers which can transmit pain impulses along the spinal cord to the brain and chemical neurotransmitters capable of carrying the signal form the neuron to neruon indicating pain or the presence of discomfuture are not developed and the neural pathways which transmit the pain impulses are not mature enough to function until mid pregnancy or later. There is no record of neurological development in a fetus in the first trimester.
Source: The Abortion Handbook
Need more sources becuase I have more.
M
moedom
Guest
I once heard a doctor say that pain is never a reason to end someone’s life, especially with all the painkillers treatment that we have available now. It is not God’s fault that man will not care for the child; it is a lack of charity from man. Now you have to come to another conclusion about the unborn child. It is either a person or not. If you believe (even though scientific proof says differently) that they are not a person then sure let’s do away with them. If on the other hand you believe it is a person then it would be tantamount to killing an adult person who is totally handicapped, would you kill them, where do you draw the line? I would always err on the side of life since God has told us to “choose life” not death. If you look with the eyes of faith you will realize that they are gifts from God and we must try to comfort them as much as possible and I believe that God lets this happen so that we may have more faith, character and compassion. What may seem compassionate to the world may be the opposite of God. It is never easy to live with death or extremely handicapped people but it is never allowable to kill them. We are going down the slippery path of the “culture of death” if we think we can play God.
Correct me if I am wrong but would a baby born with no brain feel anything anyways?
Check out this site:
www.notdeadyet.com
Correct me if I am wrong but would a baby born with no brain feel anything anyways?
Check out this site:
www.notdeadyet.com
T
trayC123
Guest
Hey Jacksquat89…I commend you for your knowledge on both sides of the issues. It is important to be able to show the statistics, and the argument for both sides in order to truly understand what it is you believe in and why you hold that opinion. I remember having to debate abortion from the opposite side…it was very very hard for me but it was a good experience nonetheless…you learn a lot and don’t just “go with” what you believe out of ignorance. You choose pro-life because after all research and thorough understanding you know it is 100% wrong.
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ProLifeAction
Guest
I don’t agree with most of what you have written & do not have time to address each point. You refer to Pro-Lifers as Anti-Choice when the only thing we are against are Satanic Choices.
As far as the pain issue – well I guess you did not watch the Silent Scream video yet.
Last, when do you believe life begins and why?
S
SHEMP
Guest
I would also like to see Jacksquat89 answer this question. Also please answer when you believe that life should receive the full protection of the law. Please tell me what you base your beliefs on, i.e. religion? science? etc? Lastly, when can you legitimately impose your beliefs on others?
J
Jacksquat89
Guest
First of all everything that was written in those last posts were sources I did not write them. As far as the pain issue I already had something about that. If you read it then you would know that the fetus cannot feel pain. Now I never ever said that the fetus is not a person. All that I said was that the baby cannot feel pain when most abortions occur.
Life begins at conception.
Why? Well first off I am a Catholic and as such I am required to believe this. So no matter how much I study abortion or all of the arguements in the world are presented to me, I have to answer to a higher power.
Second after all of the things I have studied show in on way or another that life begins at conception.
As for the silent scream movie I was already forbade to watch that by my mother (I am only 15). So I would, but I can’t so I won’t.
ProLifeAction:
Life begins at conception.
Why? Well first off I am a Catholic and as such I am required to believe this. So no matter how much I study abortion or all of the arguements in the world are presented to me, I have to answer to a higher power.
Second after all of the things I have studied show in on way or another that life begins at conception.
As for the silent scream movie I was already forbade to watch that by my mother (I am only 15). So I would, but I can’t so I won’t.
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Naphali
Guest
What I’m saying is that in the 30’s 40’s 50’s and 60’s before abortion was legal there was such a system in place – There were some ways to diagnose a life threatening pregnancy and sometimes people had legal abortions even before abortion was legal –
Please do not make determinations about my faith or my belief for me – I know what I am and I have stated it –
You might not like the way I choose to express myself – what I am saying is that if abortion were illegal (what’s this like the 3rd time) IF ABORTION WERE ILLEGAL THERE WOULD STILL BE CASES WHERE IT HAPPENED LEGALLY … and that’s not up to me or you that’s up to a physician and a family.
Would I do it, no, as I’ve said a number of times – Do I think that there are cases VERY VERY VERY rare cases (not dwarfism, downs, etc. please!) where it is more merciful to “disconnect the Oxygen” I think those cases can exist and I think that those people can be at peace with their choice and with their relationship with God –
man oh man – I really am pro-life people, I’m just trying to get you to think outside the box here – ectopic abortions do indeed deliberately kill the baby – if you were trying to keep the baby alive you wouldn’t take it out of it’s mother.
That’s like saying “I didn’t mean to break the window out of your car I just wanted to steal the radio”
:ehh: I’m growing weary here – must be nice to live in a world with no shades of gray.
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The_Barrister
Guest
- Life begins at conception. Planned Parenthood’s own doctors testifying before Congress admitted this to be true.
- Whether one can “Impose one’s views” is a false issue. Taking the life of another innocent human being is either right or wrong. Clearly, it is wrong.
- Doctors once thought babies in the womb could not feel pain. Silent Scream corrected that misperception. Further, premature babies (as early as 20 weeks) have been shown to feel pain right after birth.
- Pain is a red herring. The issue is life. Besides, Jack and his other buddies cannot prove that an unborn child does not feel pain. We do know that everything is in place by 8-10 weeks, and most abortions are performed in the 8-13 week period.
E
Evan
Guest
I would hardly call the Church’s position on abortion (even in the case of rape or incest) frown’s upon. Evangelium Vitae says I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written Word of God, is transmitted by the Church’s Tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium. The only good thing that may come out of rape or incest is the child.
The church has forbidden abortion since the 40’s, and I don’t mean the 1940’s, I mean AD 40-49. "There are two ways, a way of life and a way of death; there is a great difference between them… In accordance with the precept of the teaching: you shall not kill … you shall not put a child to death by abortion nor kill it once it is born The Didache.
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ProLifeAction
Guest
So anotherwards you feel murder is OK as long as the person does not feel pain? I won’t even argue with you about when someone feels pain because it is really irrelevant in this debate.
E
Evan
Guest
The doctors lied.{/B] Once the baby is born, the guardians would make the decision, not the doctors. The mother and fathers would be the guardians and the ones to make the decision.
J
Jacksquat89
Guest
The Barrister said:
had sources for our claims. You really think that all of the things you said mean something just because you said them. I am on the same side as you are in this debate, except I know the facts. Pain is a red herrings, but I am not the one that went off on it. If you read up the posts, all I was doing was correcting someone.
J
Jacksquat89
Guest
Please show me where I said that.
K
kage_ar
Guest
Murder of a human should always be a crime. In the tubal pregnancy situation, as someone who has gone through this - you find out that you have a tubal pregnancy when the tube begins to rupture or does rupture. With my medical issues, I’d had my first ultrasound as soon as the pregnancy was confirmed, and everything was said to be jolly good in the pregancy- two days later, my tube ruptured. That tube is where the baby was growing, it has outgrown the tube - by the time that the surgeon gets in there, the baby is already dead. The dead baby is removed, a live baby is not aborted. I did not have an abortion, my child died.
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ProLifeAction
Guest
You would do yourself a lot of good reading the library responses from Judy Brown. You can also ask her questions. This would definitely help to clear up your so-called gray areas which are black & white to me. It’s a great resource!
ewtn.com/vexperts/conference.htm
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trayC123
Guest
I think some of you are misunderstanding and jumping to conclusions with what Jack is getting at. He’s just giving some information for sources he has researched. Don’t make hasty generalizations that just because he is quoting the “other side” that he necessarily believes this. He has already stated that he is pro-life and believes that life begins at conception. Give him a break.
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ProLifeAction
Guest
Then what is your position. What circumstances do you feel abortion OK?
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