ABP Vigano writes third letter

[commenter]

If I can’t count on priests and bishops to be holier than me, than the Church is indeed in dire straits.

You n me both.

 

[Kathleen18]

Ex- Cardinal McCarrick is currently residing
at a Friary in Victoria, Kansas…

 

[poche]

And part of the Pope’s poor relationship with many Americans is because of him (Mgr Vigano) and his incendiary declarations.

 

[Ender]

And part of the Pope’s poor relationship with many Americans is because of him (Mgr Vigano) and his incendiary declarations.

This begs the question of whether his accusations are true or not. Surely that is all that really matters and it seems there are only three possibilities: he is lying, he is mistaken, or his charges are valid.

As to the first, that would be the least likely as it would require us to believe that Msgr Vigano has simply lost his faith entirely and believes he will suffer no penalty for such a monstrous lie.

As to the second, this possibility might be reasonable if he hadn’t served for so long in such high positions in the US and the Vatican. He certainly seems to be in a position to know what he’s talking about.

In my mind that leaves the third possibility as the overwhelmingly likely one, and while it might be the most disturbing option, if the situation is as bad as he makes it out to be then there is no possibility of resolving this problem until there is public recognition that it exists. What Vigano has said may be painful, but we should all be grateful that someone has finally come out and pointed to the truth, however uncomfortable it makes us.

 

[Joe_5859]

it seems there are only three possibilities: he is lying, he is mistaken, or his charges are valid.

I don’t think these are the only possibilities. He could be right about some things and mistaken about others. He makes a lot of allegations. It’s not necessarily all or nothing.

 

[Feanor2]

I wonder how long before Vigano’s fourth letter.

 

[Ender]

I don’t think these are the only possibilities. He could be right about some things and mistaken about others. He makes a lot of allegations. It’s not necessarily all or nothing.

I’m not so interested in who did what to whom, and when. What I’m really concerned about is who is going to do something about the problem of homosexual actions among the priests and bishops. The fact that Vigano highlighted this problem makes it difficult for it to be ignored any longer as it has been in the past. I think there are too many people who see this as a cancer within the church for it to simply fade into the background again.

 

[commenter]

pnewton:

Pope Francis has called the first world wide synod of bishops to address specifically the problem and solutions to sexual abuse. If this is not taking the problem seriously, then it is not possible ever be seen taken it seriously to those who would harm the Catholic Church.

In fact, right after the Boston scandals bishops conferences around the world started reorganizing seminaries to ensure that the conditions conductive to those deviant behaviors be rooted out during the formative years. Those conferences started being held short afterwards with full participation of social actors, namely forensic psychiatrists. So the church was quick to respond when the dimension of the problem became public knowledge.

Fact being, some countries had very few problems or reported cases. After some research and afterthought, I found that in some countries it was allowed for seminarians to date during college and even before. So they could go through seminary, whilst continually discerning their vocation and dating. The result were men, that had a solid vocation, and knew what a romantic relationship was having opted for the priesthood.

God bless.

Don’t put too much confidence in the psychiatrists. Starting in the 1960s, bishops began to rely heavily on mental health and social work people, to screen in people for ordination. Sometimes men were screened out for being “too rigid”, which may have meant they took doctrine too seriously.

They introduced lots of social and psychological exercises, with extreme priority on emotional maturity. In one diocese, seminarians were required to watch porn, so they would have some understanding of what the laity were doing. Later on, when the hyper-social trained seminarians became priests, and were accused of sexual abuse, the bishops were still relying on the mental health pros. They treated the priests, declared them cured, and they were reassigned to a distant parish.

There was a movement around 1970, called The Third Way, in which seminarians, later priests were encouraged to date, but not to get too involved. This led to loss of vocation, frustration, a few cases of priests accused of breaking up marriages.

 

[Carmel]

Where is he?

In hiding somewhere. In fear for his life ?

 

[OneSheep]

Dear Archbishop Vigano,

But I am an old man, one who knows he must soon give an accounting to the Judge for his actions and omissions, one who fears Him who can cast body and soul into hell. A Judge who, even in his infinite mercy, will render to every person salvation or damnation according to what he has deserved.

I pray that the you, Archbishop, come to see a more forgiving image of God.

I knew many would feel wounded and betrayed. I expected that some would in their turn assail me and my motives…I have been accused of creating confusion and division in the Church through my testimony.

Yes, it is one thing to criticize and disagree, yet another to call for the resignation of Pope Francis.

Yet I believe that my continued silence would put many souls at risk, and would certainly damn my own.

I pray that you, Archbishop, come to see a more forgiving image of God.

Most impartial observers, however, will have been aware of a longstanding excess of both, as is inevitable when the successor of Peter is negligent in exercising his principal mission, which is to confirm the brothers in the faith and in sound moral doctrine.

You disagree with Pope Francis’ moral doctrine, and believe that “Most” agree with you. You do not know this. However, we can see that there is some underlying disagreement (animosity?) concerning moral teachings. Archbishop Vigano, I agree with your efforts to expose abuse problems, but you weren’t elected Pope, and your own moral teachings are not perfect.

continues to wreak great harm in the Church – harm to so many innocent souls, to young priestly vocations, to the faithful at large.

And for your efforts to correct these problems, I applaud you. Unfortunately, the public way you are addressing this, and the outright condemnation of people and calling for resignation is uncharitable. Right effort, wrong means.

With regard to my decision, which I have taken in conscience before God, I willingly accept every fraternal correction, advice, recommendation, and invitation to progress in my life of faith and love for Christ, the Church and the pope.

Good. I hope you read this letter. I don’t like doing this publicly, but people need to know that there are more merciful means of going about this, and other ways of seeing God.

Pope Francis himself has either… or, knowing what he does, is gravely negligent in failing to oppose it and uproot it.

Now this shows some effort at actually trying to understand and forgive Pope Francis, and I commend you for the start. Now consider this: perhaps Pope Francis had some reason to believe that McCarrick had done his penance and repented. That would go a step further toward a charitable understanding. Perhaps if you did not already resent the Pope’s “moral teaching”, you might be more open to such a possibility.

Just as to why you have tried to solve the problem in such a confrontational, divisive manner, we can also know why Pope Francis behaved the way he did. In both cases, we have people (you and Pope Francis) trying to do what they think is best.

(continued)

 

[kyrie03]

I pray that you, Archbishop, come to see a more forgiving image of God.

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Our “more forgiving image of God” doesn’t change Who He is. We cannot not remake Him in our image and likeness.

You disagree with Pope Francis’ moral doctrine, and believe that “Most” agree with you. You do not know this. However, we can see that there is some underlying disagreement (animosity?) concerning moral teachings. Archbishop Vigano, I agree with your efforts to expose abuse problems, but you weren’t elected Pope, and your own moral teachings are not perfect.

What exactly are the imperfect moral teachings of AB Vigano?
Moral doctrines do not change – God sent His Son (the Word) to teach us the truths necessary for salvation. The apostles, most specifically Peter, were commissioned to hand on the truths, unchanged, to their successors. When any successor SEEMS to preach a new understanding or allows for a new understanding without correcting the errors, the sheep should be able to recognize the voice of the Eternal Shepherd and resist any contrary voices.

Now this shows some effort at actually trying to understand and forgive Pope Francis, and I commend you for the start. Now consider this: perhaps Pope Francis had some reason to believe that McCarrick had done his penance and repented. That would go a step further toward a charitable understanding. Perhaps if you did not already resent the Pope’s “moral teaching”, you might be more open to such a possibility.

I’ve seen several posters suggest McCarrick had perhaps repented. But McCarrick has denied any wrongdoing – that’s not repentance! He resigned from the College of Cardinals and was ordered to a life of prayer and penance until accusations against him are examined in a regular canonical trial. He hasn’t been stripped or di-vested of any titles –his resignation was accepted. He is still an Archbishop behind monastery doors protected from questions about the allegations or restrictions…he is silenced.

Just as to why you have tried to solve the problem in such a confrontational, divisive manner, we can also know why Pope Francis behaved the way he did. In both cases, we have people (you and Pope Francis) trying to do what they think is best.

AB Vigano’s testimony was an attempt to illicit proper action from the hierarchy- to speak truthfully and put an end to the divisions and confusion. The Word of God made Flesh, ascended to the Father, and sent the Holy Spirit to strengthen the successors of the apostles to speak the truth of God until the end of time. Silence is not confirming the brethren in the truth.

 

[commenter]

A Judge who, even in his infinite mercy, will render to every person salvation or damnation according to what he has deserved. End post

I pray that the you, Archbishop, come to see a more forgiving image of God.
end more liberal post.

From me:

So, Catholic teaching had been revised? Who knew?
Was this news about Judgement etc, first aired on CNN?

 

[Ender]

I pray that the you, Archbishop, come to see a more forgiving image of God.

What does this mean? If no sins have been committed there is nothing to forgive, but if there are sins involved then before they can be forgiven they must be repented of, or is your view of a more forgiving image of God one that does not require repentance?

You disagree with Pope Francis’ moral doctrine, and believe that “Most” agree with you. You do not know this. However, we can see that there is some underlying disagreement (animosity?) concerning moral teachings.

The issue raised by Vigano concerns the homosexual culture within the clergy itself. Vigano condemns it, and the fact that not enough has been done to address it. Is it your position that Francis differs on this point?

Archbishop Vigano, I agree with your efforts to expose abuse problems, but you weren’t elected Pope, and your own moral teachings are not perfect.

The archbishop’s personal moral failings, and his “moral teachings” - whatever they may be - are utterly irrelevant. All that matters here is whether his comments are accurate. If what he has said is true then he is to be commended for saying it. If what he has said is untrue then he should be condemned for spreading falsehoods, but the validity of his charges are totally unaffected by his personal character, however good or bad it may be.

Unfortunately, the public way you are addressing this, and the outright condemnation of people and calling for resignation is uncharitable. Right effort, wrong means.

He apparently tried to raise this issue privately, and nothing effective was done. As for the outright condemnation of individuals, if his accusations are accurate what is the problem with making them? Again, your objections have nothing to do with whether what he said is or is not true. The archbishop is not the issue, and focusing on him is a distraction from what is the issue: the homosexual culture within the church, and whether it will be confronted or ignored.

 

[otrrl]

Whether he’s right or wrong on any particular point, I think it’s great that some bishop someplace is speaking out directly and publicly to the Pope. St. Paul had no reservations (that we can tell) about telling St. Peter about his hypocrisy regarding the gentiles (in Acts, I think).

 

[Leferdion]

who do you think is the boss of the Church?

 

[13pollitos]

I believe the boss of the Catholic Church is Our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[pnewton]

I believe in Christ the King, but that would not justify me denying the legitimacy of the current president. As Jesus has risen, he left a chair (the position) for his vicar.