Abusing muhammad?

[Muslim_Woman]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

Salaam/ Peace

Things that Muhammad can never say is “Forgive them, O Lord, for they do not know what they do”, and saying that when he is under torture by other.

Ever heard of Macca Victory ? When the last Prophet had 10 thousands armed soldiers with him , he forgave the killers of his uncle , daughter . People of Tayef tortured him & angels came and told Prophet about the command of God. If Prophet wants , angels will destroy the city . Prohet said , no . May be , in future , children of this city will embrace Islam .

When will u stop spreading hatred ? It’s not giving your religion a good name .

 

[Sister_Amy]

So in Islam, all apostasy is treason? I thought there was no compulsion in religion. This would suggest otherwise. That first statement quoted by the sheik says absolutely nothing about treason.

No, not all apostasy is treason.

From the quote!

Seems to be a matter of ijtihad–the person actually gets a chance to change his mind back again. What’s wrong with that?

Your second statement is pure deflection. I thought we were discussing Islam and quotes by an Islamic sheik.

Ok?

“Blessed are they who have not seen, and yet have believed.” (John 20:29)

What then of those who refuse to open their eyes, and refuse therefore to believe? In their hearts is a disease?

And no offense, but the Quran is not a miracle. Jesus’ resurrection is a miracle. Jesus’ healings are miracles. Padre Pio’s stigmata is a miracle. The image on Juan Diego’s tunic is a miracle. A book that conflicts with and contradicts previous prophets is not a miracle (although maybe only in the sense that so many people would be duped by it.)

The Qur’an is certainly a miracle–and also a message. A miracle I can’t even begin to explain (seriously, I’m at a loss for words). I was reading something today about the use of the word “heart” in the Qur’an. Three different words in Arabic have been translated as heart. The first is “qalb” which implies the nature of the heart to keep changing and flipping. In the Qur’an when God talks about faith and diseases of the heart, He uses this word: qalb. Another word is “fu’aad” which implies the emotional power (fire) of the heart. When God talks about the feeling the mother of Moses had when she put him into the river, it says she had a “void in her heart” or something to that effect–and the word “fu’aad” is used. And thirdly, there is “sadr” which is kind of like the chest, where the heart goes. When God describes the whispers of Satan, for instance, into the ‘hearts’ of men, the word “sadr” is used for heart, meaning that Satan whispers into their chests but it is up to the person if he wants to open his heart up to those whispers.

The amazing subtlety of the Qur’an is just one facet of its magnificence. And it is only the people who don’t study it who refuse to acknowledge its miraculous nature.

 

[chrisse]

Ever heard of Macca Victory ? When the last Prophet had 10 thousands armed soldiers with him , he forgave the killers of his uncle , daughter . People of Tayef tortured him & angels came and told Prophet about the command of God. If Prophet wants , angels will destroy the city . Prohet said , no . May be , in future , children of this city will embrace Islam .

When will u stop spreading hatred ? It’s not giving your religion a good name .

What you call hate we call truth.

We’ll stop spreading the truth about Islam when it is no longer a threat to mankind, and there are no people being persecuted under it’s barbaric shariah justice system.

So, that’s the deal settled on that score.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding the words then.

In Islam are invalid and void not the same thing? Sorry if I misunderstood.

No. The quote apparently says “valid and proper.” A prayer is defective if it’s not offered in the correct time. But if a person misses the prayer, he is supposed to make it up right away, as soon as he remembers or wakes up or whatever. The prayer is an obligation–something that we owe to God, something He commanded us to do. And part of the commandment is that it be in a certain time. If the prayer is outside of that time, then obligation was not adequately fulfilled.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Instead of deflecting, are you specifically saying that this group is not an authority and is misrepresenting Islam?

How about these:

…

Specifically with this last group, if they are not an authority and are misrepresenting Islam then Muslims in America should be rallying and protesting against them - not inviting them to speak on college campuses.

I’m not investigating all of them to find out if they are representing Islam properly, but it doesn’t seem that they are an authority at all. The leader of an organization does not an authority make, not on Islam. You should refer to scholars. My own shaykh, for instance, or you can visit a number of sites where you can find real authentic scholars who have such authority (islamqa.com, islamonline.net, islamicity.com, and AMJA are some examples of sites where you can find actual scholars who have authority.)

 

[Sister_Amy]

And you didn’t answer the question. How is your definition of “take over the world” different? I contend that Islam will fight every non-Muslim in every land until they either convert to Islam or live subject to Islamic/Sharia law. To me, that is “take over the world.”

There is no fighting in Islam to force people to convert.

There is fighting (if an Islamic state exists) to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to embrace Islam–in other words, to ensure that they have the freedom of religion! Islam will fight to establish justice on the earth. I don’t really think that’s “taking over” and it doesn’t mean establishing Shari’ah everywhere, or ever imposing it on anyone who doesn’t want it. But establishing it for those who want it, sure, by freeing minorities from persecution, sure.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Hey, waitaminnit. If Islam is a “stand-alone” faith, why does it claim to originate with Abraham? Why are Moses and Jesus part of your faith? Why does the Qur’an have to “confirm” parts of Christianity if Islam is a stand-alone faith?

Are you under the mistaken impression that Jesus was a Christian???

Or that Abraham was Jewish???

Or some other silly foolishness.

The Qur’an is quite clear, actually. Abraham was neither a Christian, nor a Jew.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy is someone who rejects that Jesus was crucified because of a sentence she does not understand and yet boasts about a sentence she does not understand. What happened to Jesus and the prohecies about Him do not matter, what matters is that the Quran is so amazing that “no one” could prove otherwise, or so she was told.

I really hate when people bring up the “prophecies” argument about Jesus. It eases a lot of people’s minds, for sure, but is not substantial at all. The prophecies which Christians claim to be about Jesus are not understood in the same light by Jews. And when it comes to understanding Jewish scriptures, I’d be far more likely to trust the opinion of the Jews instead of the Christians. The fact that Jews reject the blasphemy of Christianity is a strong proof against it.

I have yet to see anyone prove the Qur’an false (including you), and I know I never will. If someone told you that he read the Bible and it convinced him of Christianity, I doubt you would question him at all. And the Qur’an is something far more amazing than that.

And I’ve never heard myself boasting about a sentence I don’t understand. Hope you’re not making things up. Can’t say it would surprise me, though.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Hello, fellow CAFlanders.

Sister Amy has said she believes what she believes because she believes it; in other words, she believes something is true simply because she believes it to be the truth. To put it in even briefer terms: truth is relevant to her beliefs. To her, the Qu’ran is incorruptible because she believes it is incorruptible. No amount of discussion or reasoning will change her mind about Islam. It’s quite pointless. The best we can do for her is just pray, and correct her statements on Jesus and Christianity for the good of other souls.

I do believe you are personally insulting me.

How shall I respond?

I think that if you have some proof with you that the Qur’an is not the miraculously revealed word of God, then you ought to show it.

If not, perhaps it is I who ought to pray for you.

 

[Sister_Amy]

the life, teachings, and prophecies He fulfilled in light of “uncorrupt” scriptures are better reasons than a man whose morality is highly questioned and who had to ruin everything before him to promote himself.

 

[R_not]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

Salaam/ Peace

Ever heard of Macca Victory ? When the last Prophet had 10 thousands armed soldiers with him , he forgave the killers of his uncle , daughter . People of Tayef tortured him & angels came and told Prophet about the command of God. If Prophet wants , angels will destroy the city . Prohet said , no . May be , in future , children of this city will embrace Islam .

When will u stop spreading hatred ? It’s not giving your religion a good name .

So, saying that we should forgive is spreading hatred?

And thank goodness he forgave two people. He killed thousands more - and his followers have killed so many that there is no counting the dead and it goes on to this very day.

As for spreading hatred - that was mohammed’s forte. Go check out some surahs and hadiths:

Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”

Qur’an 4:168 “Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.”

Qur’an 4:114 “He who disobeys the Apostle after guidance has been revealed will burn in Hell.”

Ishaq:344 “We smote them and they scattered. The impious met death. They became fuel for Hell. All who aren’t Muslims must go there. It will consume them while the Stoker [Allah] increases the heat. They had called Allah’s Apostle a liar. They claimed, ‘You are nothing but a sorcerer.’ So Allah destroyed them.”

Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy - a fierce slaughter - murdered, a horrible murdering.”

Qur’an 5:10 “Those who reject, disbelieve and deny Our signs, proofs and verses will be companions of Hell-Fire.”

Qur’an 88:1 “Has the narration reached you of the overwhelming (calamity)? Some faces (all disbelievers, Jews and Christians) that Day, will be humiliated, downcast, scorched by the burning fire, while they are made to drink from a boiling hot spring.”

There are always more of the same from the holey koran. Too numerous and tiring to print.

 

[chrisse]

I think some of our non-Christian posters on the islamic topics are forgetting this is a CATHOLIC APOLOGETICS FORUM.

If they want absolute and constant affirmation of their beliefs, they are not in the right place.

 

[Eucharisted]

And when it comes to understanding Jewish scriptures, I’d be far more likely to trust the opinion of the Jews instead of the Christians. The fact that Jews reject the blasphemy of Christianity is a strong proof against it.

Jews not only reject the Divinity of Jesus but also His Messiahship. So do you trust Jews more, regarding Jesus, or Christians? It seems you don’t understand what “Messiah” and Scriptures mean, and I know nothing I say will change your mind, so I’ll just go on for the instruction of those who do not know Jesus nor the Scriptures.

The Messiah, whom God promised to Israel, is the eternal King which all Jews await, whom will redeem Israel. He will be born of a virgin, come from Bethlehem, be a descendant of David, be a son of God (a king), bring universal peace and justice, spread the knowledge of God throughout the world, be a Jew, completely follow the Law of Moses (i.e., be holy, without sin), destroy the enemies of Israel, end all holocausts except for the thanksgiving offering - these are just a few requirements of the Messiah, and they are found in the Scriptures and in the rabbinic traditions. A man must fulfill all the requirements or else he is not the Messiah.

Let me repeat the absolute most essential requirement for the Messiah: “the eternal King”. This means the Messiah must - I repeat, must - be the King of the entire world, or else he is not the Messiah. The reason He must be the King of the world is because God promised to save the gentiles, He promised to universalize Israel: in other words, God promised to make it so all men would come to know and serve the Lord and all men would be redeemed. Now, not only must the Messiah be King, but he must also be an eternal King: not a king one day and than the next day no longer king, not a king for a while and then his throne stolen from him, not a king for many years and then murdered by someone or some people: the King must be King for eternity, forever, without end or interruption. Why must he be King forever? Because God promised his kingdom would last for eternity, and a kingdom cannot be a kingdom without a reigning king.

Islam believes Jesus is the Messiah, yet it dose not believe that Jesus is King. This is so contrary to the office of Messiah that it would take an absolute ignorance of what the Messiah is to say someone is Messiah yet not the King of the world. Another way is to say someone is Messiah but fall short of explaining how this is so. Mohammed did the latter, in saying Jesus is the Messiah but not explaining how he is the Messiah.

Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah, that He fulfilled all the requirements, and that He reigns as King in Heaven and on Earth: In Heaven in person and on Earth in the hearts of the righteous. His reign is both physical and spiritual, visible and invsibile, and this is in accordance with His Person: Human and Divine, Visible and Invisible.

 

[R_not]

“Islam is the problem!” “Muhammad is the problem!” Muslim violence is becoming worse each year and throughout the world people are finally questioning if Islam is to blame. Even Muslims are doubting aspects of their faith and many are leaving it. Writers are now saying that it is Islam itself, and not a perversion of the religion, that is the real problem.

And they continue to work on our institutions - Act for America has many projects going to counter their tireless jihad against our children.

I hear PM Neville Chamberlain speaking once again. “I believe it is peace for our time… Go home and get a nice quiet sleep.” While England slept, Hitler prepared, and then acted. While British politicians closed their eyes and bent over backwards to shield the Muslim community from any criticism, real Muslims prepared and acted. While America’s President Bill Clinton chased women, America slept, real Muslims trained, prepared, and acted. They will act again.

Still the West is distracted and unprepared to deal with the Islamic world. More pain is the prescription capable of wakening the West, and even now it is being filled. As I write, Muslims in France are establishing their territory, defeating French police, and destroying vehicles. Soon they will begin to murder non-Muslims. Either the French will defend their homeland, flee, or convert to Islam.

We are actually seeing the UK very well along in the stealth jihad I wrote of before. Police running away from them, their government banning free speech, allowing their children to study islam, segregation (beginning of accepting dhimmitude when segregation is brought in under the disguise of modesty), etc.

If you want to know whether or not Islam is the problem you must listen to the data. So what is this data and where is it found? It is found in the fundamental theological texts of Islam, the Quran, Hadith, and biographical (Sira) documents, and in Muhammad’s lifestyle (Sunnah), i.e. his actions, mannerisms, and habits. These are the foundations of Islam, and all of them are rooted in Muhammad. Muhammad is the foundation of Islam.

Reading these texts is not difficult and more people are doing it. They are checking out Islam for themselves and reaching the same conclusion I’ve reached. I’ve had many a person who was considering Islam, write me and thank me for pointing out what those texts say. They had no idea that Muhammad treated non-Muslims barbarically. It’s all there in those texts. Are you willing to examine them?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Jews not only reject the Divinity of Jesus but also His Messiahship. So do you trust Jews more, regarding Jesus, or Christians? It seems you don’t understand what “Messiah” and Scriptures mean, and I know nothing I say will change your mind, so I’ll just go on for the instruction of those who do not know Jesus nor the Scriptures.

Of course you’re not going to change my mind. Maybe as a new convert you think that people have the power to do that to others. You’ll learn, I guess.

Anyway. Jews are closer than Christians regarding Jesus, because Christians go to an unrealistic extreme in their claims about him. They call him divine, the son of God. Blasphemy, that is. The Jews admit he was a teacher, a human. The reason they reject him as a Messiah is perfectly legitimate–he didn’t do what they thought he was going to do. And the answer to that, from Muslims is simply that Jesus didn’t do yet all the things he will do. He will come again.

The Messiah, whom God promised to Israel, is the eternal King which all Jews await, whom will redeem Israel. He will be born of a virgin, come from Bethlehem, be a descendant of David, be a son of God (a king), bring universal peace and justice, spread the knowledge of God throughout the world, be a Jew, completely follow the Law of Moses (i.e., be holy, without sin), destroy the enemies of Israel, end all holocausts except for the thanksgiving offering - these are just a few requirements of the Messiah, and they are found in the Scriptures and in the rabbinic traditions. A man must fulfill all the requirements or else he is not the Messiah.

Not all of these claims are true Jewish statements about the Messiah–or at least, some of them I haven’t heard. Just because there is a prophecy in the OT doesn’t mean it’s about the Messiah–it’d be better for you to not make those assumptions. For instance–birth of a virgin is not a sign of the Messiah.

Let me repeat the absolute most essential requirement for the Messiah: “the eternal King”. This means the Messiah must - I repeat, must - be the King of the entire world, or else he is not the Messiah. The reason He must be the King of the world is because God promised to save the gentiles, He promised to universalize Israel: in other words, God promised to make it so all men would come to know and serve the Lord and all men would be redeemed. Now, not only must the Messiah be King, but he must also be an eternal King: not a king one day and than the next day no longer king, not a king for a while and then his throne stolen from him, not a king for many years and then murdered by someone or some people: the King must be King for eternity, forever, without end or interruption. Why must he be King forever? Because God promised his kingdom would last for eternity, and a kingdom cannot be a kingdom without a reigning king.

Eternal king? It really irks me how Christians take their own ideas about the Messiah and impose them on to Judaism. This entire paragraph is just such an example.

Islam believes Jesus is the Messiah, yet it dose not believe that Jesus is King. This is so contrary to the office of Messiah that it would take an absolute ignorance of what the Messiah is to say someone is Messiah yet not the King of the world. Another way is to say someone is Messiah but fall short of explaining how this is so. Mohammed did the latter, in saying Jesus is the Messiah but not explaining how he is the Messiah.

There are more similarities than differences in the Jewish and Muslim views of the Messiah. You might not know it (probably you don’t) but Muslims believe Jesus is going to return to the earth, at an age where Islam will be the dominant religion on the earth and he will rule as khalifah.

Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah, that He fulfilled all the requirements, and that He reigns as King in Heaven and on Earth: In Heaven in person and on Earth in the hearts of the righteous. His reign is both physical and spiritual, visible and invsibile, and this is in accordance with His Person: Human and Divine, Visible and Invisible.

Yes, as usual Christians have made up their own theology to suit the popular mythology.

 

[R_not]

If you don’t believe in Jesus that is fine. The problem is that it is muslims who claim to be an extension of Judaism and Christianity. And that is where the problem lies - they don’t meet any of the requirements of this.

-The message was changed.
-The koran contradicts not only the Old Testament, but also the New Testament.
-There was no sign from God that mohammed was a prophet.
-islam is a self-serving religion for mohammed

Read the rest of the reasons

So, all of this is your problem not ours, sister amy.

As for the Jews believing in Jesus or not - is not the question.

islam stands on its own because of their own claims. It is all hogwash and once again you are on the attack instead of telling us - since islam is based on the Bible being corrupted - THEN PROVE IT. Show us using sources other than the koran. The koran is based on a guy who couldn’t read or write so he didn’t even know the Bible, and also because he wasn’t a Jew or a Christian, but a pagan. He wasn’t even raised as a Jew or a Christian, but with his god allah - his kabaa - and the black stone. All of those pagan things that you now worship.

that black stone that has consciousness .

 

[Eucharisted]

Not all of these claims are true Jewish statements about the Messiah–or at least, some of them I haven’t heard. Just because there is a prophecy in the OT doesn’t mean it’s about the Messiah–it’d be better for you to not make those assumptions. For instance–birth of a virgin is not a sign of the Messiah.

I suggest you study the prophecies of the Old Testament and of the rabbinic traditions, and from there, gather your thoughts about the Messiah from Judaism’s point of view. This will not only help you better understand Jesus, it will also help you better understand what the office of Messiah means.

Eternal king? It really irks me how Christians take their own ideas about the Messiah and impose them on to Judaism. This entire paragraph is just such an example.

Messiah literally means Anointed. “Anointed” means King, because the kings of Israel were anointed with olive oil by a priest as the priest recited a royal psalm, usually the ones where it proclaims the king to be “a son of God”. Jews believe the Messiah will be an eternal King, who’s Kingdom will have no end.

There are more similarities than differences in the Jewish and Muslim views of the Messiah. You might not know it (probably you don’t) but Muslims believe Jesus is going to return to the earth, at an age where Islam will be the dominant religion on the earth and he will rule as khalifah.

Islam’s beliefs about the return of Jesus to reign on Earth as King is actually more in tune with Prostantism than either Judaism or Christianity.

Strictly speaking, no Jew would ever consider Jesus to be the Mesisah, because He called Himself God. Jews do believe Jesus called Himself God: it is a historical fact to them. The gospels, as well, record Jesus as saying He is God (the I Am statements).

So-called “Messianic Jews” are Jews who regard Jesus as the Messiah, however their own religious beliefs condemn them, specificially the First Commandment. They are like the Jewish Christians in the early days of the Church, but are not the same as Jewish Christians since they have neither taken a hold of Christian practices nor let go of Jewish practices. In essense, they are like souls who cannot choose between two religions: Judaism or Christianity. It is a real pickle, and I pray God will lead them to the truth.

 

[R_not]

So, since this is a thread about whether or not we abuse mohammed - I am going to bring up something that should show us the demeaning of women by mohammed.

The sunni and wahabbi think that letting you breastfeed their women is ok. this is in their texts. Yes. No kidding. mohammed made Aisha breastfeed a man.

adult breastfeeding

Now, here is the question… will a woman get beaten if she refuses this?

 

[Reuben_J]

The prophecies which Christians claim to be about Jesus are not understood in the same light by Jews. And when it comes to understanding Jewish scriptures, I’d be far more likely to trust the opinion of the Jews instead of the Christians.

Those Christians then were Jews.

 

[rtconstant]

rtconstant;4798306:

Right, because believing the Holy Books that gave Muhammed his inspiration and the people of the time is just rediculous. They’re obviously liars. Whereas its completely absurd that a sinful man who came centuries later would lie…

Why should anyone believe Jesus was telling the truth? The same reason applies in the case of Muhammad.

Well, his life is one thing. Even Muslims and Jews don’t deny the quality of his life. Mohammed cannot say the same. Now living a good, and inspiring life and having the testimony of others doesn’t have to mean anything but it at least goes to character. Believing in Christ’s teachings are a matter of faith just as believing Mohammed is. I’ll give you that. The difference is that what Mohammed admitted to, and what those around him witness do not point toward a Godly man.

I thought you might at least attempt to disguise the fact you haven’t even read it. But oh well… more lackluster posting from you…

Unfortunately I have read it. Which is more than what most Muslims can claim.

He didn’t write it.

He did there is no indication of anything else.

Muslims don’t believe Muhammad either made up the Qur’an or wrote it. Not if they’re Muslims.

Again many do. But this is interesting to me. Whenever, Muslim actions or beliefs are brought up to you, you say it isn’t real Islam. When Sharia nations are brought up to you, you say they aren’t practicing real Sharia. My question is: are there any “real” Muslims. It seems that you don’t think anyone is really a Muslim. How is it that millions of Muslims are completely wrong in about being Muslim? How is it that Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan and parts of Nigeria are not “real” Sharia nations? They certainly think they are, and in many of those nations they beat you in the streets for suggesting otherwise. Why is it that you know real Islam but these millions of Muslims are all completely wrong?

Now, certainly you seem to follow a better version of Islam than those above. However, it looks like you’re the odd one out here. Because the above institutions all seem pretty much on par with each other in belief.

To the contrary–in over 1400 years, people have witnessed the miracle of the Qur’an, and in all that time nobody has been able to prove it is anything other than a miracle.

Well, simply put what miracle? You’ve yet to point out exactly what’s miraculous about it. Most here have read at least some of the Quran and witnessed no miracle. What exactly is miraculous about this book?

So you think that men can enhance the words of God? That men can write better and more truthfully than God?

No I don’t. I am not sure where you got that. This is in fact one of the main reasons I don’t believe the Quran.