Accident or Providence?

[AshleyBelle]

Christ death only applies to those who are in Christ. It does not have an eternal benefit for those who are not in Christ.

Romans 8

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Christ death is offered to all the world…Unless you want to discredit the Word of God…And His work on the cross.

You’re right, it “applies” to those who are in Christ. Meaning, that while it is offered, we must embrace His great gift in order to apply that grace to our lives.

We can reject what He freely offers us all, or we can accept and embrace His great love.

Do you think there is anyone God does not want to save?

 

[underdog]

Christ death is offered to all the world…Unless you want to discredit the Word of God…And His work on the cross.

You’re right, it “applies” to those who are in Christ. Meaning, that while it is offered, we must embrace His great gift in order to apply that grace to our lives.

We can reject what He freely offers us all, or we can accept and embrace His great love.

Do you think there is anyone God does not want to save?

God desires all men to be saved. However, God does not save all men. Again, who is sovereign in salvation, God or man? Who makes the final determination that someone is saved? Was this determined before a person was born? God is either mutable or immutable. If I understand your final conclusion, mankind is sovereign in salvation and God is mutable because each person is the ultimate decider to save Himself. Roman Catholicism is semi-pelagius in theology, is it not?

 

[AshleyBelle]

God desires all men to be saved. However, God does not save all men. Again, who is sovereign in salvation, God or man? Who makes the final determination that someone is saved? Was this determined before a person was born? God is either mutable or immutable. If I understand your final conclusion, mankind is sovereign in salvation and God is mutable because each person is the ultimate decider to save Himself. Roman Catholicism is semi-pelagius in theology, is it not?

** “God desires all men to be saved” **
Yes we agree there

** “God does not save all men” **

I would say, not all men recieve salvation, because some reject it.

"Who makes the determination that someone is saved?"

God alone knows our hearts. "I do not judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but that does not mean I am acquitted. It is the Lord Who judges me.”

**Was this determined before a person was born? God is either mutable or immutable. **

This was KNOWN before a person was born. God’s will is immuatable. God’s love, mercy and providence are immutable. However, human free will is fallable and often rejects the perfect, immutable will of God.

 

[underdog]

** “God desires all men to be saved” **
Yes we agree there

** “God does not save all men” **

I would say, not all men recieve salvation, because some reject it.

"Who makes the determination that someone is saved?"

God alone knows our hearts. "I do not judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but that does not mean I am acquitted. It is the Lord Who judges me.”

**Was this determined before a person was born? God is either mutable or immutable. **

This was KNOWN before a person was born. God’s will is immuatable. God’s love, mercy and providence are immutable. However, human free will is fallable and often rejects the perfect, immutable will of God.

Pretty deep stuff, huh? Within the discussion of pelagism, semi-pelagism, Arminaninsim, and Calvinism in regards to salvation of sinners (what is more important than this topic for humans), it comes down to who makes the final determination of who will be in Heaven and on what basis. Do you wish to comment?

 

[AshleyBelle]

Pretty deep stuff, huh? Within the discussion of pelagism, semi-pelagism, Arminaninsim, and Calvinism in regards to salvation of sinners (what is more important than this topic for humans), it comes down to who makes the final determination of who will be in Heaven and on what basis. Do you wish to comment?

Again…God is the final judge.

When asked in the Bible, “what must I do to be saved, Lord?” Christ replied that we must DO the will of the Father.
God's will is perfect, but we must choose to follow it or not. And in the end, He is the one who will judge all our works.

 

[underdog]

Again…God is the final judge.

When asked in the Bible, “what must I do to be saved, Lord?” Christ replied that we must DO the will of the Father.

God's will is perfect, but we must choose to follow it or not. And in the end, He is the one who will judge all our works.

But if we must do the will of the Father to be saved, nobody will be saved because no one is able to do the will of the Father perfectly (with the exception of Jesus Christ). Do you see the significants of Christ’s imputation of His perfect righteousness?

 

[AshleyBelle]

But if we must do the will of the Father to be saved, nobody will be saved because no one is able to do the will of the Father perfectly (with the exception of Jesus Christ). Do you see the significants of Christ’s imputation of His perfect righteousness?

We are able to DO God’s will, when we accept His gift of grace.

His grace works through us, so that our WORKS are made pleasing and meritorious. Not of our own accord, so that none may boast, but of Christ working THROUGH us

This is how we do the will of the father… and while we may never do it perfectly…the point is that we have the CHOICE every moment of our lives to choose sin…or to choose His grace.

That is why Mary is unique in all God’s creation. She is the only created person in all of history who perfectly did the will of the father…Not because of her own power, but of the power of God’s grace flowing through her immaculate heart.

 

[underdog]

We are able to DO God’s will, when we accept His gift of grace.

His grace works through us, so that our WORKS are made pleasing and meritorious. Not of our own accord, so that none may boast, but of Christ working THROUGH us

This is how we do the will of the father… and while we may never do it perfectly…the point is that we have the CHOICE every moment of our lives to choose sin…or to choose His grace.

That is why Mary is unique in all God’s creation. She is the only created person in all of history who perfectly did the will of the father…Not because of her own power, but of the power of God’s grace flowing through her immaculate heart.

Do you see how you are preaching a works righteousness gospel and have replaced Jesus with Mary. When non-Catholic Christians look to a person who was able to do the will of the Father perfectly, we look to Jesus Christ. And just because Jesus is God, does not give you an out since Jesus was not created.

Checkmate!

Romans 10

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

 

[AshleyBelle]

**Do you see how you are preaching a works righteousness gospel and have replaced Jesus with Mary. **

No reformed. YOU are the one who is reading that into what I say. No ammount of your trying to tell me repeatedly that it’s what I believe is going to change what I actually believe.

When non-Catholic Christians look to a person who was able to do the will of the Father perfectly, we look to Jesus Christ. And just because Jesus is God, does not give you an out since Jesus was not created.

Exactly. Mary is unique among all of God’s creatures…because she was CREATED, and because of HIM and HIS grace, obeyed His will perfectly.

Jesus IS GOD, and perfectly obeyed the will of the Father… He was not a creature of God, He IS GOD. That is why Mary is the model of the Church, and Christ is the head of the Church.

Checkmate!
I’m sorry that you feel the truth is like a game of chess. I’m not here to “beat” you… I am here to share the fullness of the truth, as revealed through Christ’s church.

Romans 10

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.** For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.** For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

This passage is only emphasizing, that some will NOT submit to God’s righteousness. That is implying they have the choice to obey or reject His grace… His offer of salvation for the whole world.

 

[underdog]

This passage is only emphasizing, that some will NOT submit to God’s righteousness. That is implying they have the choice to obey or reject His grace… His offer of salvation for the whole world.

I’m just trying to keep things light at the same time. I think you need to explore that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Jesus Christ came into this world not to abolish the law, but rather God became incarnate to fullfill the law on our behalf. Until you are able to understand this, you’re basis of salvation is your obedience.

 

[AshleyBelle]

I’m just trying to keep things light at the same time. I think you need to explore that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Jesus Christ came into this world not to abolish the law, but rather God became incarnate to fullfill the law on our behalf. Until you are able to understand this, you’re basis of salvation is your obedience.

My basis of salvation is Jesus Christ.

I’m sorry that you can’t understand His command to “take up your cross and follow Me.”

" Come to me, all who labor and are heavy burdened

and I will give you rest

Take my yoke and learn from me

For I am meek and humble of heart

My yoke is easy, and My burden is light"

How wonderful, that when we come to the Lord, our hearts find rest. “My heart is restless until it rests in You, Lord.”
But yet…notice He doesn’t take away all yokes and burdens…But we KNOW that HIS burden is not a burden at all. What He asks of us, we do with His grace, and our hearts find rest in doing the work of the Lord.

This is obedience…That the love of God flows through our hearts and lives. “Remember these things that I have written” (I reference 1 John 5:13) “so that you may know you have eternal life!”

What things were written? If we refer to 1 John chapter 4, we see he was talking about Christ’s command to “love one another!”

We are not saved by our obedience. We are saved by Christ alone…and we recieve this salvation when we cooperate with His grace in our hearts

 

[underdog]

My basis of salvation is Jesus Christ.

I’m sorry that you can’t understand His command to “take up your cross and follow Me.”

" Come to me, all who labor and are heavy burdened

and I will give you rest

Take my yoke and learn from me

For I am meek and humble of heart

My yoke is easy, and My burden is light"

How wonderful, that when we come to the Lord, our hearts find rest. “My heart is restless until it rests in You, Lord.”
But yet…notice He doesn’t take away all yokes and burdens…But we KNOW that HIS burden is not a burden at all. What He asks of us, we do with His grace, and our hearts find rest in doing the work of the Lord.

This is obedience…That the love of God flows through our hearts and lives. “Remember these things that I have written” (I reference 1 John 5:13) “so that you may know you have eternal life!”

What things were written? If we refer to 1 John chapter 4, we see he was talking about Christ’s command to “love one another!”

We are not saved by our obedience. We are saved by Christ alone…and we recieve this salvation when we cooperate with His grace in our hearts

Christ alone, aahee?

How can we be saved by Christ alone if God needs our cooperation to be saved? I think you should leave the solas with the non-Catholics, don’t you?

 

[AshleyBelle]

Christ alone, aahee?

How can we be saved by Christ alone if God needs our cooperation to be saved? I think you should leave the solas with the non-Catholics, don’t you?

God doesn’t “need” anything… Again your’e applying your understanding to what Catholics believe.

WE NEED to accept His grace…not the other way around. And if after all the discussions and attempts to explain Catholic belief, you still honestly think we teach that we’re saved by anything other than Christ alone…I’m afraid nobody here can clarify it for you.

We are saved by Christ alone… By God’s grace alone. These are Catholic teachings. Non Catholics have added "faith alone, " a statement which only appears ONCE in all of scripture, and that is when it is condemned.

 

[underdog]

God doesn’t “need” anything… Again your’e applying your understanding to what Catholics believe.

WE NEED to accept His grace…not the other way around. And if after all the discussions and attempts to explain Catholic belief, you still honestly think we teach that we’re saved by anything other than Christ alone…I’m afraid nobody here can clarify it for you.

We are saved by Christ alone… By God’s grace alone. These are Catholic teachings. Non Catholics have added "faith alone, " a statement which only appears ONCE in all of scripture, and that is when it is condemned.

What do you mean by Christ alone, that the righteousness of Christ alone is the grounds of our justification before God? Are you preaching the sufficiency of Christ alone in His perfect righteousness as being all we need for eternal peace and reconcilation with God?

 

[AshleyBelle]

What do you mean by Christ alone, that the righteousness of Christ alone is the grounds of our justification before God? Are you preaching the sufficiency of Christ alone in His perfect righteousness as being all we need for eternal peace and reconcilation with God?

I’m “preaching” that Christ alone is the source of our salvation. We recieve justification by grace alone at baptism…and we cooperate in our salvation through Christ alone, and His work on the cross. We participate in His sacrifice throughout our lives, so that we may be transformed into holiness, as we were created to be

To sin, is to be less human because we were created for holiness
To choose life, love, and God’s grace is to be MORE human, because it’s what we were created to do.

We are offered this grace and salvation through Christ alone. We are sanctified by the blood of Christ alone.

I’m not sure what isn’t clear about this…

I guess “all we need for eternal peace and reconcilliation with God” is Christ working in our lives and hearts. But if we cut ourselves off from His grace, we can’t have peace or reconcilliation…because we’re looking to ourselves instead of Christ alone.

I think if you really do want better clarification you should research “sanctification, justification, salvation, and grace” in the catechism.

 

[fbl9]

I believe God is immutable. I thought the Roman Catholic believed that God is immutable too. Does the Catholic Church believe that God is mutable, that men can change God’s mind and will?

so would you plead with God to save others or would say yea God smoke em.

 

[underdog]

I’m “preaching” that Christ alone is the source of our salvation. We recieve justification by grace alone at baptism…and we cooperate in our salvation through Christ alone, and His work on the cross. We participate in His sacrifice throughout our lives, so that we may be transformed into holiness, as we were created to be

To sin, is to be less human because we were created for holiness
To choose life, love, and God’s grace is to be MORE human, because it’s what we were created to do.

We are offered this grace and salvation through Christ alone. We are sanctified by the blood of Christ alone.

I’m not sure what isn’t clear about this…

I guess “all we need for eternal peace and reconcilliation with God” is Christ working in our lives and hearts. But if we cut ourselves off from His grace, we can’t have peace or reconcilliation…because we’re looking to ourselves instead of Christ alone.

I think if you really do want better clarification you should research “sanctification, justification, salvation, and grace” in the catechism.

We can’t change the doctrinal differences that came out of church history, nor can you change Roman Catholicism to fit your views.

 

[AshleyBelle]

We can’t change the doctrinal differences that came out of church history, nor can you change Roman Catholicism to fit your views.

You're right! And this is the beauty of the Church, and Christ's promise to guide her into all truth!

WE CANNOT conform the Catholic Church to fit our own views. People have tried for centuries…

Until the 1930s ALL churches taught that contraception was sinful. Now, ONLY the Catholic Church holds up this belief.

Christian churches are appointing homosexual ministers
The CATHOLIC church has not swayed

Christian churches say that baptism is only symbolic, while others say it is necesary. The Catholic Church has ALWAYS upheld the true teaching.

None of us can put our own interpretations of what the Holy Spirit has revealed and preserved in the Church. What a blessing we have in this regard!

I know you are trying to infer that Catholics (or just me) believe in Pelagianism.. and you have been told we do NOT.

Here is the definition of Pelagianism:

“Pelagianism is a theological theory named after Pelagius (ad. 354 – ad. 420/440). It is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without Divine aid. Thus, Adam’s sin was “to set a bad example” for his progeny, but his actions did not have the other consequences imputed to Original Sin. Pelagianism views the role of Jesus as “setting a good example” for the rest of humanity (thus counteracting Adam’s bad example). In short, humanity has full control, and thus full responsibility, for its own salvation in addition to full responsibility for every sin (the latter insisted upon by both proponents and opponents of Pelagianism). According to Pelagian doctrine, because humanity does not require God’s grace for salvation (beyond the creation of will),[1] Jesus’ execution is devoid of the redemptive quality ascribed to it by orthodox Christian theology.”

Notice…it says that orthodox Christianity does NOT teach this. Yet you continue to claim that we do.

Which is it? Do we believe underdog, or do we believe Christ’s church?

 

[underdog]

You’re right! And this is the beauty of the Church, and Christ’s promise to guide her into all truth!

WE CANNOT conform the Catholic Church to fit our own views. People have tried for centuries…

Until the 1930s ALL churches taught that contraception was sinful. Now, ONLY the Catholic Church holds up this belief.

Christian churches are appointing homosexual ministers
The CATHOLIC church has not swayed

Christian churches say that baptism is only symbolic, while others say it is necesary. The Catholic Church has ALWAYS upheld the true teaching.

None of us can put our own interpretations of what the Holy Spirit has revealed and preserved in the Church. What a blessing we have in this regard!

I know you are trying to infer that Catholics (or just me) believe in Pelagianism.. and you have been told we do NOT.

Here is the definition of Pelagianism:

Notice…it says that orthodox Christianity does NOT teach this. Yet you continue to claim that we do.

Which is it? Do we believe underdog, or do we believe Christ’s church?

I never said Catholicism is Pelagisnism. I wrote that the Catholic Church is semi-pelagius in theology in regards to cooperation between man and God. You are proclaiming the Roman Catholic Church instead of Jesus Christ alone again.

 

[AshleyBelle]

I never said Catholicism is Pelagisnism. I wrote that the Catholic Church is semi-pelagius in theology in regards to cooperation between man and God. You are proclaiming the Roman Catholic Church instead of Jesus Christ alone again.

Why do you separate Christ from His church?