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Jew_Man_73
Guest
Thanks. I read on the Internet yesterday that he also has ties with Sun Myung Moon. Is this true? My head is spinning over this.
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J
Jew_Man_73
Guest
Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. You’ve given me something to ponder.
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Della
Guest
They know nothing of the Eucharist if they think it involves cannibalism–how can eating a wafer of bread and drinking a sip of wine be cannibalism? The bread and the wine remain the same in appearance and in taste, etc. This is called their accidents. But, their substance has become the Body and Blood of Christ. The charge of idolarty could be taken seriously if one does not believe in the Real Presence.
The Rosary’s origins can be found in the Liturgy of the Hours, which is the prayer of the Church. At one time it was prayed only by monks and nuns because it was done in Latin, which the common people didn’t learn. As you know, there are 150 Psalms and all of them were prayed in the Liturgy of the Hours over the course of a week or in some cases over a day. Ordinary people wanted to join in, so they began praying the Hail Mary, one for each Psalm. After a while, the 150 Hail Marys were broken down into decades and meditations added to make them more meaningful. Later still, an Our Father was added between the decades, and so on until we have the Rosary as we know it today. That is the very short history of the Rosary. You can read up on it here: The Rosary.
Edited for length
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JackmanUSC
Guest
As far as the real presence and transubstantiation goes it is pronounced by Jesus in the gospel of John.
John 6:41-69
**41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
****So, like modern day protestants, those listening to Jesus at the time did not understand what he meant by saying he would be present in the Eucharist. He repeated himself and tried to get the message through. If he wanted the Eucharist to be just a symbol don’t you think he would have made it clearer to the people, and his disciples when he re-explained what he was saying. Also why would the disciples leave him saying the teaching was too hard if it was just to be meant as symbolism. The belief in the Real Presence requires strong faith and it is, as taught by the Church and by Scripture, the greatest of all the miracles performed by Jesus Christ. **
John 6:41-69
**41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
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43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[a](http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=John%206:%2041-71;&version=31;#fen-NIV-26292a)] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. **Many Disciples Desert Jesus **
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit**("http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=John%206:%2041-71;&version=31;#fen-NIV-26310b")] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve. 68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."
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VociMike
Guest
You’re really doing this the hard way! Learning about the Catholic faith while letting people who are opposed to Catholicism challenge you at every turn. I think you need to tell your friends to give you some breathing room until you can at least discuss things on an even footing.
First respond by stating the fact that they cannot deny: that the Church, both east and west, has always taught this (not the actual word “transubstantiation”, but that the Eucharist is the actual, real body and blood of Christ). It is not a Roman or Medieval invention as some say (if so where is the historical evidence of such a blasphemy taking over the entire Church?). Where are the early Church Fathers who plainly state that the Eucharist is not the body and blood of Christ? Oh sure, some Fathers do write about the symbolic nature of the Eucharist (it is of course symbolic as well as real), but not a single one denies the Real Presence, that the Eucharist is Christ, rather than just a symbol of Him.
After that point out that to say it is cannibalism (the eating of dead human physical flesh) is to deny (1) the divinity of Christ (He is more than just human), (2) the Resurrection (He is alive, not dead, and He no longer has a physical body but a glorified one), (3) the plain words of scripture – “my flesh is true food”, “this is my body”, and (4) the omnipotence of God.
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thessalonian
Guest
A few years back a priest came from New Guinea to speak to us at Mass. In his sermon he talked about how the people were cannibals before the missionaries came. The people were easy to convert because they easily understood the Eucharist. This method of conversion whereby a missionary looks for something in the beliefs and practices of the people to help them understand the faith. Paul did this in the Aeropogus in Acts 17 where he uses the shrine of the unknown God to help the pagans there understand the one true God.
Now there is a reason for there being things in people that we can leverage to help them understand Christ. In Romans 2:14-15 it speaks of how the law is written on all men’s hearts. Well a part of this law is the first commandment, i.e. the desire to worship the one true God. They cannot come to full knowledge of him because they do not have divine revelatoin but they do attempt to. This manifests itself in their religious practice. St. Francis Xavier was one of the greatest of all time at learning the culture of a native people and using what he learned about them to help them understand Christianity. He converted nearly 1 million souls to the Church.
God bless
Now there is a reason for there being things in people that we can leverage to help them understand Christ. In Romans 2:14-15 it speaks of how the law is written on all men’s hearts. Well a part of this law is the first commandment, i.e. the desire to worship the one true God. They cannot come to full knowledge of him because they do not have divine revelatoin but they do attempt to. This manifests itself in their religious practice. St. Francis Xavier was one of the greatest of all time at learning the culture of a native people and using what he learned about them to help them understand Christianity. He converted nearly 1 million souls to the Church.
God bless
Z
Zooey
Guest
Hey, JM, It’s great to hear from you again!!
I wanted to answer about the thing about Christmas.(My Mom was a Latin teacher, so I know this one…) The Romans had their biggest feasts of the year around the midwinter.And they were some pretty wild occasions, too–drunkeness, immorality, etc. Which was the last thing that believers needed or wanted to be part of. Now, we don’t really know the date of Jesus’ birthday, so to give Christians something wholesome & well…Christian, the Church began to celebrate His birth during the time when their neighbors were out running wild. So, the date of Christmas was influenced by the pagans only to the extent that it replaced a pagan celebration with a distinctly Christian one.
Now, the thing about the rosary: I think that is a big stretch! I mean, what better way is there to keep track of prayers than to count them on a string of beads? Just seems like common sense to me…
(I think that sometimes, that there are people that just invent things to complain about…).
By the way, I bet that a lot of these people celebrate the holidays they are complaining about the name/date of!!
Oh, yeah, & about Easter supposedly coming from “Ishtar”…Well, Ishtar was the name of a nice Jewish girl…Queen Esther! So even if it had come from there–which I have to doubt–it has great credentials…
God bless!!
I wanted to answer about the thing about Christmas.(My Mom was a Latin teacher, so I know this one…) The Romans had their biggest feasts of the year around the midwinter.And they were some pretty wild occasions, too–drunkeness, immorality, etc. Which was the last thing that believers needed or wanted to be part of. Now, we don’t really know the date of Jesus’ birthday, so to give Christians something wholesome & well…Christian, the Church began to celebrate His birth during the time when their neighbors were out running wild. So, the date of Christmas was influenced by the pagans only to the extent that it replaced a pagan celebration with a distinctly Christian one.
Now, the thing about the rosary: I think that is a big stretch! I mean, what better way is there to keep track of prayers than to count them on a string of beads? Just seems like common sense to me…
(I think that sometimes, that there are people that just invent things to complain about…).
By the way, I bet that a lot of these people celebrate the holidays they are complaining about the name/date of!!
Oh, yeah, & about Easter supposedly coming from “Ishtar”…Well, Ishtar was the name of a nice Jewish girl…Queen Esther! So even if it had come from there–which I have to doubt–it has great credentials…
God bless!!
J
Jew_Man_73
Guest
Thank you. I bookmarked the link so I can read it tomorrow when I have the time.
“Accident” refers to the bread and wine looking and tasting the same?
J
Jew_Man_73
Guest
I’ve read this passage. All the Protestants I know say that Jesus was speaking figuratively here. How can I prove that he was speaking literally? Do you know of any good study aides that would explain this? I would also like to learn more about this so I can increase my own understanding, because I honestly don’t understand it either.
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Jew_Man_73
Guest
Yes, one of my best friends (We’ve been friends for years) is a missioanry in Dublin, Ireland. Her job is to evangelize Catholics and convert them to her sect. She sends out monthly email newsletters talking about how her heart breaks for the Irish people who are lost in the darkness of Catholicism. I have another friend who is a missionary in Japan. Recently, she shared her views about the Virgin Miriam (Mary), in which she stated that it was a sin to pray to a dead woman. She said that praying to her was committing the sin of idolatry, “no matter what Catholics say.” She also said that Miriam didn’t appear to or communicate with anyone, since she’s just a dead mortal woman. So no, this definitely hasn’t been easy. Between my Jewish friends and my Protestant friends, I’m fighting an uphill battle. (You know what’s really funny? My Protestant friends were more accepting of my faith when I was a religious Jew. Isn’t that weird?)
Can you recommend a specific Church Father(s) for me to read regarding the Eucharist? I’d love to learn more about it.
J
Jew_Man_73
Guest
Thanks for the post. I had forgotten about the account of Paul in Acts 17. That’s an excellent point. Thanks for the information on St. Francis Xavier. I’m going to see if I can look up some information about him.
J
Jew_Man_73
Guest
Thanks, Zooey! It’s good to hear from you again!
Yes, you have a good point. All my Protestant friends celebrate Christmas. They believe it has pagan origins and condemn the Catholic Church for its “paganism”, but have no problem opening their presents on December 25th! It seems hypocritical to me. Thank you for the information about Christmas. I had no idea. I’ll share this with my Protestant friends. It sounds really great to me that the Church started celebrating Christmas in order to give its people an alternative to the sinful pagan celebrations of that time. It sounds like a positive thing to me.
I agree about Esther too. Great credentials indeed! Purim has been my favorite holiday for years. I’ll probably still celbrate along with all the Jewish and Christian holidays. (Of course, who knows? With my newfound faith, maybe Christmas or Easter will become my new favorite holiday!
)G-d bless you too!
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VociMike
Guest
Think about the logic behind such a statement. We worship Mary (that’s what idolatry is), and then we turn around and deny it. Now, do we ever deny that we worship God? Deny that we worship Christ (God Incarnate)? In your experience did Jews ever deny that they worshipped God? So why would we worship Mary and then deny it? To make the Protestants like us more? Heck, I can think of dozens of other Catholic beliefs that we could deny that would make the Protestants like us more, but we don’t deny any of them, so why would we deny that we worship Mary, if indeed we do worship her, but not deny anything else we believe? Can you think of anything else Catholics believe but deny that they believe?
What religion worships a person or diety and at the same time freely denies that worship. It’s impossible to reconcile the two, worship and denial of that worship. No matter what protestants say.
Your Jewish faith wasn’t threatening to them. Your budding Catholic faith is. Consciously or unconsciously many Protestants see the Catholic Church as standing in silent judgement of them and their interpretation (many interpretations) of the deposit of Christian faith. If the Catholic Church is right, then they’re wrong – it’s just that simple. That’s why they spend so much time trying to prove that the Catholic Church is wrong. Many, from outward appearances, are obsessed with the endeavor. Compare all the Protestant websites that are outright anti-Catholic, and then go look for Catholic websites that are outright anti-Protestant. I’ve never found a single one of the latter. Look at the Jack Chick “comics” and then try and find Catholic equivalents (you can’t because they don’t exist).
Well, here’s a website with ECFs:
ccel.org/fathers2/
A good 3-volume set of ECFs is Jurgens, “Faith of the Early Fathers”. A good book summarizing Catholic doctrine on the Eucharist is Sungenis, “Not by Bread Alone”.
Don’t forget that it’s not just the Catholics that believe in the actual, real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. The Orthodox believe this as well, though they don’t use the latin word “transubstantiation”. So it is the Protestants who went against 1500 years of the beliefs of the entire Church, both east and west. They are the outsiders in this matter, not the Catholics.
R
romano
Guest
Hi Jew Man 73:
If you want to learn about Catholicism you should read some of its best representatives. G. K. Chesterton would be a good place to start. You might take a look at his THE EVERLASTING MAN:
amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0898704448/qid=1116604237/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-7263732-1539835?v=glance&s=books
There’a also a very good Chesterton site at:
chesterton.org/
Pax!
J
Jew_Man_73
Guest
Thanks for the book recommendations. I actually saw those books yesterday at the local Catholic bookstore here. I didn’t get them, though, because I didn’t know what they were.Think about the logic behind such a statement. We worship Mary (that’s what idolatry is), and then we turn around and deny it. Now, do we ever deny that we worship God? Deny that we worship Christ (God Incarnate)? In your experience did Jews ever deny that they worshipped God? So why would we worship Mary and then deny it? To make the Protestants like us more? Heck, I can think of dozens of other Catholic beliefs that we could deny that would make the Protestants like us more, but we don’t deny any of them, so why would we deny that we worship Mary, if indeed we do worship her, but not deny anything else we believe? Can you think of anything else Catholics believe but deny that they believe?
What religion worships a person or diety and at the same time freely denies that worship. It’s impossible to reconcile the two, worship and denial of that worship. No matter what protestants say.
Your Jewish faith wasn’t threatening to them. Your budding Catholic faith is. Consciously or unconsciously many Protestants see the Catholic Church as standing in silent judgement of them and their interpretation (many interpretations) of the deposit of Christian faith. If the Catholic Church is right, then they’re wrong – it’s just that simple. That’s why they spend so much time trying to prove that the Catholic Church is wrong. Many, from outward appearances, are obsessed with the endeavor. Compare all the Protestant websites that are outright anti-Catholic, and then go look for Catholic websites that are outright anti-Protestant. I’ve never found a single one of the latter. Look at the Jack Chick “comics” and then try and find Catholic equivalents (you can’t because they don’t exist).
Well, here’s a website with ECFs:
ccel.org/fathers2/
A good 3-volume set of ECFs is Jurgens, “Faith of the Early Fathers”. A good book summarizing Catholic doctrine on the Eucharist is Sungenis, “Not by Bread Alone”.
Don’t forget that it’s not just the Catholics that believe in the actual, real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. The Orthodox believe this as well, though they don’t use the latin word “transubstantiation”. So it is the Protestants who went against 1500 years of the beliefs of the entire Church, both east and west. They are the outsiders in this matter, not the Catholics.
I’ve tried explaining the doctrine of Mary to my Protestant friends, but they won’t listen. I thought I could make them understand, since they were Christians. I figured that was at least some common ground to start with. I mean, I just converted from Judaism and I understand, but they don’t seem to. Of course, it doesn’t help that one of my friends is an excommunicated Catholic. She showed me her excommunication letter last year. She’s very proud of it. They keep coming up with all kinds of reasons for me to leave the Catholic Church and be Protestant. I’ve tried exlplaining to them that I’ve reserched Church history and have discovered that the Catholic Church is the original church and that’s why I want to be Catholic, but they still don’t seem to understand.
In my experience, Catholics have been much more loving and accepting than Protestants. I’ve been much more impressed with the Catholics that I’ve known. They seem to be much more Christian than Protestants, in general. The Protestants I’ve known over the years haven’t been very loving or charitable. I’ve read a few Chick tracts, too. I didn’t like them.
Thanks for your help!
J
Jew_Man_73
Guest
Thanks! I’ll look him up.
V
VociMike
Guest
Oh yes, Chesterton is a delight!
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FCEGM
Guest
This reminded me of a book a Protestant neighbor loaned me a number of years ago. It was written by a Protestant missionary (Evangelical, if I’m remembering correctly) who also was in New Guinea and used what he encountered in the culture of the cannibalistic natives to bring them to the truth of Christ. It was amusing to see him try to get around the literalism of the Eucharist.
C
CARose
Guest
Yes, I think that understanding that God has left no-one without the truth written on their heart makes it easier for the Catholic to respect the various religions of the people they meet. We realize that while we have been blessed with access to the fullness of the truth, that those we meet who sincerely seek God have the potential of eventually coming all the way home to Rome. But we also know that the true work of conversion is done by the Holy Spirit. It’s especially fun when we see the Holy Spirit working in someone, as many of us have had the pleasure of seeing with you.… Our Lady of Guadalupe sounds intriguing. I’m going to see if I can find more information about her. Your post reminds me of somethign my RCIA instructor was saying the other day. She made a comment about all world religions containing truth, and that Catholics should study other religions to find the truth in them. Is this what she was getting at? I didn’t really understand what she was getting at. (She has a very high regard for Judaism, by the way, and has visited synagogues before.
Have patience with your friends. Remember when they get pushy, that from their mistaken perspective they are seeking to save your soul. When you realize this you can accept that what they are doing is actually a great honor. They care about you enough to reach out. Use this to help in remembering Charity on your part in return.
God bless you as you continue on your journey,
CARose
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TeriGator
Guest
Just FYI - we Catholics believe that Mary is not dead, but that she is more truly alive in Christ than we are here on earth. Perhaps her body died (the Church is silent on this issue), but she was taken up to heaven, body and soul, at the end of her earthly life.
And since the book of Hebrews talks about being surrounded by a cloud of witnesses (saints), I think it’s a lot more comforting to believe we are surrounded by those living in heaven than a bunch of dead people. :getholy:
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