Accusations of Paganism

[Gottle_of_Geer]

VociMike:

Think about the logic behind such a statement. We worship Mary (that’s what idolatry is), and then we turn around and deny it. Now, do we ever deny that we worship God? Deny that we worship Christ (God Incarnate)? In your experience did Jews ever deny that they worshipped God? So why would we worship Mary and then deny it? To make the Protestants like us more? Heck, I can think of dozens of other Catholic beliefs that we could deny that would make the Protestants like us more, but we don’t deny any of them, so why would we deny that we worship Mary, if indeed we do worship her, but not deny anything else we believe? Can you think of anything else Catholics believe but deny that they believe?

What religion worships a person or diety and at the same time freely denies that worship. It’s impossible to reconcile the two, worship and denial of that worship. No matter what protestants say.

Your Jewish faith wasn’t threatening to them. Your budding Catholic faith is. Consciously or unconsciously many Protestants see the Catholic Church as standing in silent judgement of them and their interpretation (many interpretations) of the deposit of Christian faith. If the Catholic Church is right, then they’re wrong – it’s just that simple. That’s why they spend so much time trying to prove that the Catholic Church is wrong. Many, from outward appearances, are obsessed with the endeavor. Compare all the Protestant websites that are outright anti-Catholic, and then go look for Catholic websites that are outright anti-Protestant. I’ve never found a single one of the latter. Look at the Jack Chick “comics” and then try and find Catholic equivalents (you can’t because they don’t exist).

Well, here’s a website with ECFs:
ccel.org/fathers2/

A good 3-volume set of ECFs is Jurgens, “Faith of the Early Fathers”. A good book summarizing Catholic doctrine on the Eucharist is Sungenis, “Not by Bread Alone”.

Don’t forget that it’s not just the Catholics that believe in the actual, real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. The Orthodox believe this as well, though they don’t use the latin word “transubstantiation”. So it is the Protestants who went against 1500 years of the beliefs of the entire Church, both east and west. They are the outsiders in this matter, not the Catholics.

Alternatively - why do Americans idolise a shred of bunting by:​

1. Singing a hymn to it
2. Saluting it
3. Elevating it ?

That is idolatry - isn’t it ?

Americans can say what they like, but their actions show the true meaning of what they do - why stand for a bit of fabric, if not to worship it ?

As if there were any doubt of their idolatry left, they have a gigantic statue of some goddess with a torch (it’s no good denying this - she has lots of rays round her head; that means she is sacred, and as divine beings are gigantic, she must be a goddess. Q.E.D.)

American has other deities - on Mount Rushmore, in the Lincoln Memorial, at the tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Their size, attitudes to them, and the crowds they attract, are unmistakably signs of worship.

All these things - like the image on notes of the war-god who founded America and is even called by the (indisputably pagan) title “Father of [his] Country” (like the deified emperor Augustus) are proofs of blatant false religion and outright idol-worship.

If Catholics are idolaters because they are convicted by outward appearances, the same reasoning convicts their American Protestant accusers.

In fact, since Americans blasphemously ascribe almightiness to the dollar (the Bible calls only God Almighty) then those Protestants who love these “gods of silver and of gold” are far deeper-dyed idolaters than Catholics, many of whom flee from wealth.

If these Protestant idolaters don’t want to seem like idolaters - let them destroy their idols. Otherwise, they cannot expect Catholics to destroy their “idols” ##​

 

[romano]

Jew_Man_73:

Thanks! I’ll look him up.

That’s great! It was Chesterton’s THE EVERLASTING MAN that converted me. It blows away all the nonsense that Protestants and others spout. Chesterton was a giant and totally demolishes their silly notions and arguments. He was gifted with an abundance of what seems to be completely lacking in so many today – good old plain down-to-earth common sense.

You’ll like him.

Pax!

 

[romano]

Originally Posted by Jew_Man_73
… Our Lady of Guadalupe sounds intriguing. I’m going to see if I can find more information about her.

Then you should try to find a copy of Warren H. Carroll, OUR LADY OF GUADALUPE AND THE CONQUEST OF DARKNESS. 1983. ISBN 0-931888-12-3.

It’s not so easy to find, but it’s a bombshell!. Finally, a book that gives us the true story of the real paganism those Spaniard conquistadores were up against, and why only the miracle of Guadalupe could have converted the Mexicans.

Your blood will curdle when you read about their devil-god Hummingbird Wizard. :bigyikes:

Pax!

 

[Zooey]

Hi,JM,

It’s just me again…I have been re-reading this thread, & I have to be a little amused by your friends saying that Jesus is not being literal when He speaks about His Body & His Blood.
I say that, because I have a very dear young relative who is a Baptist. She tells me that everything in the Bible is literal–until it comes to something like this verse, that Baptists don’t believe in literally; then she, too, says this is symbolic…
God bless.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

VociMike:

Oh yes, Chesterton is a delight!

I’ve heard alot about him, but have never read any of his books. Which book of his should I read first?

 

[antiaphrodite]

hello, jew_man_73!!!

Catholicism is pagan? that has been brought up over and over again. the thing is, it’s just not true. a lot of resources have already been given, and i trust you’ll see this as you read them.

somebody suggested you read G.K. Chesterton. as he happens to be one of my favorite authors, i won’t disagree. all i can say is–well, be prepared.

we’re praying for you!

 

[Jew_Man_73]

FCEGM:

This reminded me of a book a Protestant neighbor loaned me a number of years ago. It was written by a Protestant missionary (Evangelical, if I’m remembering correctly) who also was in New Guinea and used what he encountered in the culture of the cannibalistic natives to bring them to the truth of Christ. It was amusing to see him try to get around the literalism of the Eucharist.

That’s interesting. What did he end up doing? How did he explain it?

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

Yes, I think that understanding that God has left no-one without the truth written on their heart makes it easier for the Catholic to respect the various religions of the people they meet. We realize that while we have been blessed with access to the fullness of the truth, that those we meet who sincerely seek God have the potential of eventually coming all the way home to Rome. But we also know that the true work of conversion is done by the Holy Spirit. It’s especially fun when we see the Holy Spirit working in someone, as many of us have had the pleasure of seeing with you.

Have patience with your friends. Remember when they get pushy, that from their mistaken perspective they are seeking to save your soul. When you realize this you can accept that what they are doing is actually a great honor. They care about you enough to reach out. Use this to help in remembering Charity on your part in return.

God bless you as you continue on your journey,

CARose

I try to keep that in mind when talking to them, but sometimes it gets hard. They get foul tempered about it sometimes. They have a tendency to get sarcastic and insulting towards the Church sometimes. Any opportunity to take jabs.

As far as the truth being written on people’s hearts, is that why the Church states that it’s possible for a non-Christian to be saved?

 

[Jew_Man_73]

TeriGator:

Just FYI - we Catholics believe that Mary is not dead, but that she is more truly alive in Christ than we are here on earth. Perhaps her body died (the Church is silent on this issue), but she was taken up to heaven, body and soul, at the end of her earthly life.

And since the book of Hebrews talks about being surrounded by a cloud of witnesses (saints), I think it’s a lot more comforting to believe we are surrounded by those living in heaven than a bunch of dead people. :getholy:

Thank you, I hadn’t thought of that. To be honest, I thought of Miram and the Saints as being dead too. It makes sense, though, that they would all be alive if they were with G-d in Heaven. So are their bodies dead, but their spirits alive? (Except for Miriam, who was assumed, of course.)

 

[Jew_Man_73]

## Alternatively - why do Americans idolise a shred of bunting by:

1. Singing a hymn to it
2. Saluting it
3. Elevating it ?

That is idolatry - isn’t it ?

Americans can say what they like, but their actions show the true meaning of what they do - why stand for a bit of fabric, if not to worship it ?

As if there were any doubt of their idolatry left, they have a gigantic statue of some goddess with a torch (it’s no good denying this - she has lots of rays round her head; that means she is sacred, and as divine beings are gigantic, she must be a goddess. Q.E.D.)

American has other deities - on Mount Rushmore, in the Lincoln Memorial, at the tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Their size, attitudes to them, and the crowds they attract, are unmistakably signs of worship.

All these things - like the image on notes of the war-god who founded America and is even called by the (indisputably pagan) title “Father of [his] Country” (like the deified emperor Augustus) are proofs of blatant false religion and outright idol-worship.

If Catholics are idolaters because they are convicted by outward appearances, the same reasoning convicts their American Protestant accusers.

In fact, since Americans blasphemously ascribe almightiness to the dollar (the Bible calls only God Almighty) then those Protestants who love these “gods of silver and of gold” are far deeper-dyed idolaters than Catholics, many of whom flee from wealth.

If these Protestant idolaters don’t want to seem like idolaters - let them destroy their idols. Otherwise, they cannot expect Catholics to destroy their “idols” ##

---

Thanks! I’ve never thought of this before. You’ve given me some excellent points to bring up the next time my Protestant friends start up again.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

romano:

That’s great! It was Chesterton’s THE EVERLASTING MAN that converted me. It blows away all the nonsense that Protestants and others spout. Chesterton was a giant and totally demolishes their silly notions and arguments. He was gifted with an abundance of what seems to be completely lacking in so many today – good old plain down-to-earth common sense.

You’ll like him.

Pax!

Excellent. I’ll start with that one then. Who knows? After finishing it, I might buy it for my friends!

 

[Jew_Man_73]

romano:

Then you should try to find a copy of Warren H. Carroll, OUR LADY OF GUADALUPE AND THE CONQUEST OF DARKNESS. 1983. ISBN 0-931888-12-3.

It’s not so easy to find, but it’s a bombshell!. Finally, a book that gives us the true story of the real paganism those Spaniard conquistadores were up against, and why only the miracle of Guadalupe could have converted the Mexicans.

Your blood will curdle when you read about their devil-god Hummingbird Wizard. :bigyikes:

Pax!

Wow, thank you. I’ll definitely look for this. I know of some rarew book dealers on the Internet. I’ll start there.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Zooey:

Hi,JM,

It’s just me again…I have been re-reading this thread, & I have to be a little amused by your friends saying that Jesus is not being literal when He speaks about His Body & His Blood.
I say that, because I have a very dear young relative who is a Baptist. She tells me that everything in the Bible is literal–until it comes to something like this verse, that Baptists don’t believe in literally; then she, too, says this is symbolic…
God bless.

Yes! My friends say the same thing! They believe that the Bible is to be taken literally except for that. (And a couple other passages that make them uncomfortable too). Without sounding nasty, they seem to have a “salad bar” mentality. “We like this, so we’ll accept it. Eww, that makes us uncomfortable, so there must be some way we can explain it away.” I told one of my friends the other day that the Bible says what it says, period. And since she claimed to be a Fundamentalist, she should have no problem with the literal Presence. That shut her up, she couldn’t respond.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

antiaphrodite:

hello, jew_man_73!!!

Catholicism is pagan? that has been brought up over and over again. the thing is, it’s just not true. a lot of resources have already been given, and i trust you’ll see this as you read them.

somebody suggested you read G.K. Chesterton. as he happens to be one of my favorite authors, i won’t disagree. all i can say is–well, be prepared.

we’re praying for you!

Thank you! That’s what I want: to learn and be prepared. Maybe it’s naive of me, but I really don’t understand all the hostility Protestants have for the Church. In the end, don’t we all worship the same G-d and believe in the same Messiah?

 

[antiaphrodite]

Jew_Man_73:

Thank you! That’s what I want: to learn and be prepared. Maybe it’s naive of me, but I really don’t understand all the hostility Protestants have for the Church. In the end, don’t we all worship the same G-d and believe in the same Messiah?

well, apparently, some people think we don’t.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

antiaphrodite:

well, apparently, some people think we don’t.

Maybe so. Maybe that’s why they’re trying to convert me. I still don’t understand, though. The same Messiah died on the cross, whether you’re Catholic, Episcopal, Baptist, Pentecostal, or whatever. Why all the fighting and division? I mean, there aren’t this many divisions in Judaism, and the divisions aren’t as pronounced. It’s just confusing.

 

[VociMike]

Jew_Man_73:

I’ve heard alot about him, but have never read any of his books. Which book of his should I read first?

You could try “Orthodoxy” and “The Everlasting Man”, followed by “The Collected Works of G.K. Chesterton vol. 3” which has a number of smaller works on his coming into the Church, etc.

BTW, here’s a story about Chesterton, which may or may not be true, but I like it. Some large magazine sent out letters to all the leading thinkers of the time asking them to write essays answering the question “What is Wrong with the World?” Chesterton sent back this answer: “I am.” (meaning, of course, that sinful people are what is wrong with the world).

 

[jjwilkman]

Jew_Man_73:

So basically, when the Church adopts a pagan practice, that practice ceases to be pagan and is then Christian and holy? Why is this done? Is it done to draw non-Christians into the Church by offering them something that’s familiar to them? (As in the case of Constantine?)

i am commencing to have a problem…

 

[jjwilkman]

Jew_Man_73:

Oh, ok, thanks. So it’s not just anything that’s accepted and given a Christian connotation. I take there has been some things that have been rejected because they just couldn’t be seen as Chirstian. It is interesting to note, though, how all religions seem to have some elements in common. Otherwise, how could the Church possibly take pagan symbols and practices and accept them in a Christian context?

sorry, but i don’t think you are inquiring.

 

[VociMike]

Jew_Man_73:

I try to keep that in mind when talking to them, but sometimes it gets hard. They get foul tempered about it sometimes. They have a tendency to get sarcastic and insulting towards the Church sometimes. Any opportunity to take jabs.

I thought you said they were friends. What kind of friends get foul tempered, sarcastic and insulting over a friend’s journey of faith? You need to challenge their behavior as friends. I think you need to smile your biggest smile and tell them to knock it off. Just remember, they’re acting this way because they are seeking to avoid the judgement of the Church on their own beliefs. They are not concerned what Judaism thinks of their faith, nor what other Protestant believers think of their faith, but they know that if the claims of the Catholic Church are right, they are wrong and are behaving in defiance of Christ.

Of course, they’ll say they are just trying to make sure you are really saved. Some excuse for foul tempers, sarcasm, insults and jabs. I’d be tempted to tell them if that’s how saved people act you don’t want any part of it.

As far as the truth being written on people’s hearts, is that why the Church states that it’s possible for a non-Christian to be saved?

That’s right. All who are saved are saved through Christ, but they may only know Christ through the law written into every human heart, not through the Christian gospel. God desires that all be saved, and none are shut off from the possibility of salvation.