Adam and Eve sinned , but why should we all should we all suffer the consequences?

[fhansen]

Do know this is exactly the type of answer Paul expected in Romans 9?
You think you are speaking to me but you are speaking to Paul in Romans and you are saying God is capricious if he acts EXACTLY as depicted in Romans 9.
You need to not deny what the fall did to all of us, and how God works in forming vessels to honor or dishonor.

Also God does indeed want our wills involved…that is why regeneration precedes faith. You and Billy Graham and most baptists have that backwards.

OK, so does God wish that any should perish?

 

[earl40]

OK, so does God wish that any should perish?

I can answer this if you will affirm that He gets EVERYTHING He desires.

You need to read into the will of God and the difference between His decretive will and prescriptive will…Unless one looks into this you will be forced to affirm that God is somehow a frustrated God affirming some perish APART from His decretive will.

 

[fhansen]

I can answer this if you will affirm that He gets EVERYTHING He desires.

You need to read into the will of God and the difference between His decretive will and prescriptive will…Unless one looks into this you will be forced to affirm that God is somehow a frustrated God affirming some perish APART from His decretive will.

I tend to think He’d still be a frustrated God if He had two wills opposed to each other.

The fact is that He either grants free will, the definition of which could be stated as the ability to oppose His will, or He doesn’t. And if He doesn’t then all moral evil is directly attributable to Him. You cannot have it both ways.

 

[earl40]

I tend to think He’d still be a frustrated God if He had two wills opposed to each other.

The fact is that He either grants free will, the definition of which could be stated as the ability to oppose His will, or He doesn’t. And if He doesn’t then all moral evil is directly attributable to Him. You cannot have it both ways.

May I ask if you have ever read this?

“Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;”

Tell me what “determined purpose” means to you apart from God being the primary or ultimate cause of evil. By the way I am not saying He is the direct or secondary cause.

Reply to Objection 1. God Who is more powerful than the human will, can move the will of man, according to Proverbs 21:1: “The heart of the king is in the hand of the Lord; whithersoever He will He shall turn it.” But if this were by compulsion, it would no longer be by an act of the will, nor would the will itself be moved, but something else against the will.

 

[fhansen]

May I ask if you have ever read this?

“Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;”

Tell me what “determined purpose” means to you apart from God being the primary or ultimate cause of evil. By the way I am not saying He is the direct or secondary cause…

So you’re saying that God is the primary, but not the direct, cause if evil? I’m not sure I understand.

 

[earl40]

So you’re saying that God is the primary, but not the direct, cause if evil? I’m not sure I understand.

Yes I am saying this as did Aquinas did. There is nothing that happens apart from God’s will. Take the most brutal act in history, the cross.
“Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.”

Here we have The Father attributed to the act as the primary cause and not the secondary cause. There is a purpose to EVERYTHING under heaven which even we may not know what that purpose is now we can take comfort knowing that EVERYTHING that happens to those who have faith is for their own ultimate good. I will say this and say this as confidently as I can. I know God is in control of everything in heaven above and all below, It is IMPOSSIBLE to assert this with the assertion that men have “free will” in the way that has be articulated here. Reread Aquinas again and see that he points to Proverbs 21:1: “The heart of the king is in the hand of the Lord; whithersoever He will He shall turn it.” Here we have God using secondary causes, the king, to do His will. There is no reason to believe that God uses kings for our well being or our chastisement.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I believe the tree was knowledge of good and evil, which infected the rest of humanity. Some say that the sin was a blessing in disguise, which will result in our souls being elevated in the Hereafter.

 

[earl40]

I believe the tree was knowledge of good and evil, which infected the rest of humanity. Some say that the sin was a blessing in disguise, which will result in our souls being elevated in the Hereafter.

There was no “magic” in the fruit that infected humanity. For scripture says the fruit was good.

 

[earl40]

I believe the tree was knowledge of good and evil, which infected the rest of humanity. Some say that the sin was a blessing in disguise, which will result in our souls being elevated in the Hereafter.

Though what you did say about the sin of Adam “will result in our souls being elevated in the Hereafter” as being true because how can know His mercy personally if we were not sinners. Of course this only applies to those He died for. Our sin was laid on Him as His righteousness is laid on us when we believe.

 

[fhansen]

Yes I am saying this as did Aquinas did. There is nothing that happens apart from God’s will. Take the most brutal act in history, the cross.
“Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.”

Here we have The Father attributed to the act as the primary cause and not the secondary cause. There is a purpose to EVERYTHING under heaven which even we may not know what that purpose is now we can take comfort knowing that EVERYTHING that happens to those who have faith is for their own ultimate good. I will say this and say this as confidently as I can. I know God is in control of everything in heaven above and all below, It is IMPOSSIBLE to assert this with the assertion that men have “free will” in the way that has be articulated here. Reread Aquinas again and see that he points to Proverbs 21:1: “The heart of the king is in the hand of the Lord; whithersoever He will He shall turn it.” Here we have God using secondary causes, the king, to do His will. There is no reason to believe that God uses kings for our well being or our chastisement.

Here’s a quote from Aquinas from Contra Gentiles, 3:159: “But
they alone are deprived of grace who set up in themselves an
impediment to grace, just as, when the sun shines on the world, he
deserves blame who shuts his eyes…”

The CC adamantly maintains that it would be totally inconsistent with the love of God and 1Tim 2:4 to predestine anyone to hell. For that, an obstinate, deliberate rejection of grace is required. We can’t be saved without grace, and yet we can resist the grace that seeks to save us. As for her doctrine of predestination, the CC never settled on either Aquinas’ or Molina’s view.

 

[fisherman_carl]

My question is why do we have to suffer the consequences of the sin of Adam and Eve when we played no part in their sin ?
.

Scripture says God has bound all men to sin so that he might have mercy on us all ( see Roman 11 : 32) . In a sense God let us break a leg so that he could heal it. Whenever God allows an evil it is so a greater good is possible. God’s plan of salvation is yet to be fully revealed.

When Adam and Eve sinned they were forced to leave the garden. That means all their future offspring would be out of the garden also. That really means they were outside of God’s grace.

Jesus came to restore us to God’s grace. Scripture says that because of Adam all men fell, but because of Jesus all men shall live. ( see 1 Cor 15 : 22)

"But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. "

• Eph 2:4-10

 

[fisherman_carl]

I will ask this question back. Why did Christ leave heaven to take on flesh, know hunger and cold and live with sinners, have to die such a horrible death on a Cross so that I can have heaven opened to me? I did nothing to deserve that.

So true. We always ask ‘why me’ whenever something bad happens, but never ask it when something good happens.

 

[chimo]

I put a question similar to this on the Ask an Apologist section and received a poor answer .

This is a question that has troubled me for quite a while , but is now troubling me seriously .

Adam and Eve sinned . They had to accept the consequences of their sin . They were expelled from the garden to live in a world where they suffered and eventually died .

My question is why do we have to suffer the consequences of the sin of Adam and Eve when we played no part in their sin ?

Think of a father who has several children . One of them brings shame on the family because of some evil he indulges in . The father feels that he has no option but to disinherit his son , banish him from the family , and hand him over to the authorities to suffer due punishment .

Now at the same time the father does something very extraordinary . He turns towards his other children and tells them that because of the wrong-doing of their brother they too are being disinherited , banished from the family , and will suffer the same punishment as their brother , even though it was the brother and not themselves who had sinned .

Now surely we would all see this father as unjust and cruel , lacking in love .

But is this not how God has treated all human beings who have lived since the time of Adam and Eve ?
Adam and Eve sinned . They had to accept the consequences of their disobedience . But the extraordinary thing is that God has made every other human being since Adam and Eve accept the consequences of a sin which was not theirs .

Why should we live in a vale of tears , ending in death , because of a sin we never committed ?

This troubles me seriously , and seems to be leading me to a point where I have to make a decision as to whether in all conscience I can carry on believing .

Any help will be gratefully received . I thank you in anticipation .

The Eastern Church has a different view than the West. In her saints and Church fathers the sin of Adam and Eve are not carried over to every generation. The Eastern saints point to us as continuing the Original Sin not because of Adam and Eve but because like them we will commit our first sin after Baptism imitating them. The original sin is thus committed by us when we commit our first sin. We will all face the same devil and choices and produce the same consequences as did Adam and Eve. We do not carry the sin of Adam and Eve but once we commit the same sin as they did then original sin continues in us. What the Eastern Church fathers acknowledge as the prime reason for their message on Original Sin was of course Baptism. Baptism actually can give the Eastern Church saints the way to understand this. Since Baptism makes you into a new creature this actually makes the Western view not as correct as they seem to say. Baptism actually makes you new. So whatever Adam and Eve did had no more effect on you as declared by the Western Church’s understanding on Original Sin. So why then do people sin after Baptism? It cannot be the fault of Adam and Eve. The Eastern saints say that we sin because the same choices and the same devil is now presented to us just like it did to Adam and Eve. Therefore after Baptism when we commit our first sin we will be doing the same as Adam and Eve. The same consequences that befall Adam and Eve then also become our consequences not because of Adam and Eve but because we did the same thing as them by committing our first sin. So the Eastern Fathers declare this especially St. John Chrysostom.

The judgment on sin as declared by the Eastern saints were not as heavy as their Western counterparts were. The Eastern saints declared that death came not as punishment but as a remedy to sin. Here we are talking about physical death. Physical death limits sin to this life. The Eastern saints declared that physical death limited sin into this life so they declared it a remedy from God for sin so that people will not be sinning forever.

 

[Aussieman88]

I have not read all the replies to this question but I hope this has been explained before.

this is why.

When God created Adam he gave him DOMINION or AUTHORITY over all things created. This is quite clear in the creation story.
When the devil tricked Eve and then Adam into sinning he actually won that authority or dominion for him self. This is evident when satan offers Jesus all the kingdoms of the earth during the temptation of Jesus. He can’t offer them if he didn’t have authority over them in the first place. Also Zachariah 8 ; 9; “when the foundation of the house of the lord of hosts was laid (10) for before these days … those who came and went had no security from the enemy.”

The devil had the authority so he went all out to kill, steal and destroy our lives.

This Zachariah passage prophesises what actually happened. Jesus by his sacrafice won back that authority or dominion for himself and he wants us to use it on his behalf.
Matt 28;18: "all power in heaven & on earth has been given to me. Go therefore & Make disiples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy spirit. He has equiped us with what we need to take authority over demons that try to influence our lives and make life hard for us. We have the full protection of God, through Jesus, if we just learn how and then use it.

Now in these new testament days, Satan chooses to be more hidden than before. He won’t let his demons fully posess people so often as before Jesus, because then people would believe in demons and seek protection which would lead them to Jesus. The majority of people have no idea. Old testament days would have sucked without the Holy Spirit being so available to help us as it is now.

So the answer to the question “why should we all suffer the consequences?” The answer is we don’t have to. The devil and his demons are entitled (they have the right) to present our minds with an idea, a thought, a feeling, At that stage it’s not a sin. Then we have a choice. When we sin it’s because we act on those thoughts. but we can choose to take authorit over the thought and cast it out of our minds. Put on the mind of christ and we will have victory every time. When we sin it’s like we are doing work for satan. Then he is justified in giving us his wages which always lead to something bad along the lines of destroying and stealing life from us in some way. Regular confession removes the sin and hence the devil can’t pay us his wages for that one anymore.

It really is easy once you put it into practice.

 

[grannymh]

Because the whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man.”

Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 402-406.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

A similar thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=765952

I had similar questions. I couldn’t reconcile why we were left with the effects of Adam’s sin. I ended up asking a priest, and it turns out it has a lot to do with the nature of man and sin. It is perfectly logical and natural that Adam’s sin would lead to the current situation.

See specifically post 26, in which I gave a summary of my understanding of the priest’s answers.

Asking 'Couldn’t God have just forgiven them?" or any variation of “Couldn’t God have…” is a prideful question, as I discovered. We truly can’t know. We only know that God is infinitely above us, and the Law He has set forth derives from His infinite wisdom.

 

[Aussieman88]

I believe the way it’s playing out is weeding out all the ones who would have turned against God at some time in the future. The end result after Judgement day is that we the ones who have been faithful in hard times are all that’s left. That way we can live for eternity in heaven, still have our free will and never, never rebel against God.

 

[fisherman_carl]

The Eastern Church has a different view than the West. In her saints and Church fathers the sin of Adam and Eve are not carried over to every generation. The Eastern saints point to us as continuing the Original Sin not because of Adam and Eve but because like them we will commit our first sin after Baptism imitating them. The original sin is thus committed by us when we commit our first sin. We will all face the same devil and choices and produce the same consequences as did Adam and Eve. We do not carry the sin of Adam and Eve but once we commit the same sin as they did then original sin continues in us. What the Eastern Church fathers acknowledge as the prime reason for their message on Original Sin was of course Baptism. Baptism actually can give the Eastern Church saints the way to understand this. Since Baptism makes you into a new creature this actually makes the Western view not as correct as they seem to say. Baptism actually makes you new. So whatever Adam and Eve did had no more effect on you as declared by the Western Church’s understanding on Original Sin. So why then do people sin after Baptism? It cannot be the fault of Adam and Eve. The Eastern saints say that we sin because the same choices and the same devil is now presented to us just like it did to Adam and Eve. Therefore after Baptism when we commit our first sin we will be doing the same as Adam and Eve. The same consequences that befall Adam and Eve then also become our consequences not because of Adam and Eve but because we did the same thing as them by committing our first sin. So the Eastern Fathers declare this especially St. John Chrysostom.

The judgment on sin as declared by the Eastern saints were not as heavy as their Western counterparts were. The Eastern saints declared that death came not as punishment but as a remedy to sin. Here we are talking about physical death. Physical death limits sin to this life. The Eastern saints declared that physical death limited sin into this life so they declared it a remedy from God for sin so that people will not be sinning forever.

3 questions:

1. If we do not inherit anything like concupiscence from Adam then why do people always choose to sin after baptism?
2. If physical death is the result of sin then isn’t that something we inherit from Adam since we all die even after baptism?
3. Why do the animals die even though they are a difference species and can not sin since they not aware.

 

[chimo]

3 questions:

1. If we do not inherit anything like concupiscence from Adam then why do people always choose to sin after baptism?
2. If physical death is the result of sin then isn’t that something we inherit from Adam since we all die even after baptism?
3. Why do the animals die even though they are a difference species and can not sin since they not aware.

The problem as I see it is the difference in how East and West views original sin. The other problem is the West does not know of the Eastern teachings on this matter. For some reason the Western Fathers were unaware of the teaching from the East. It is only now in these recent days can we discover both teachings for the other to discover. I believe one of the main reasons for this was because we had hardly any contacts and any type of relationships to share our teachings with. It may have been more deliberate on God’s part so as to have each Church to developed their own teachings apart from each other so as to in time come together to share them and to balance whatever teachings the other can pass on. Your questions seem valid enough for someone from the Catholic Church however an Eastern Christian thinks differently on this because her Saints have taken these issues from a different perspective. The question of us sinning after baptism was actually answered from my earlier post. I said we sin after baptism because the same conditions that face Adam and Eve are the same conditions facing us. We will be tempted by the same devil to sin. Since we are in a perfected state from our baptism then our first sin after our baptism therefore copies Adam and Eve’s sin. The original sin continues not because of Adam and Eve but because we the do the same as Adam and Eve. This was the conclusion of the Saints of the Eastern Church. The point of inherited physical death is a point you make. However I was not concluding this aspect in the first post. Physical death does come to all but the point of the first post was it was not a judgment but rather a remedy to sin. It is true physical death did come to all. For the animal question I suspect it is because they only serve God’s purposes now in this life. There is no eternity for animals.

 

[Robert_Sock]

There was no “magic” in the fruit that infected humanity. For scripture says the fruit was good.

The fact that the ‘ftuit’ was good to eat supports my view that god will elevate our souls in the Hereafter.