Adam and Eve sinned , but why should we all should we all suffer the consequences?

[grannymh]

The fact that the ‘ftuit’ was good to eat supports my view that god will elevate our souls in the Hereafter.

After we get out of Purgatory.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

I put a question similar to this on the Ask an Apologist section and received a poor answer .

Do you have the link?

This is a question that has troubled me for quite a while , but is now troubling me seriously .

Adam and Eve sinned . They had to accept the consequences of their sin . They were expelled from the garden to live in a world where they suffered and eventually died .

My question is why do we have to suffer the consequences of the sin of Adam and Eve when we played no part in their sin?

Adam and Ever were the representative of mankind and therefore assumed the responsibility for what would happen to mankind.

---

Think of a father who has several children . One of them brings shame on the family because of some evil he indulges in . The father feels that he has no option but to disinherit his son , banish him from the family , and hand him over to the authorities to suffer due punishment .

Now at the same time the father does something very extraordinary . He turns towards his other children and tells them that because of the wrong-doing of their brother they too are being disinherited , banished from the family , and will suffer the same punishment as their brother , even though it was the brother and not themselves who had sinned .

Now surely we would all see this father as unjust and cruel , lacking in love .

But is this not how God has treated all human beings who have lived since the time of Adam and Eve ?
Adam and Eve sinned . They had to accept the consequences of their disobedience . But the extraordinary thing is that God has made every other human being since Adam and Eve accept the consequences of a sin which was not theirs .

Why should we live in a vale of tears , ending in death , because of a sin we never committed ?

******Ah but see you have already distorted what happened. God created Adam and Eve to be the parents of the entire human race. In giving them this vocation, they also had the obligation to take care of themselves or else they would not only harm their own souls but also the future of mankind. As beings which were created perfect and in sanctifying grace they not only understood the seriousness of their vocation but they also willingly assumed all responsibility for which it entailed. When they sinned they indirectly said something similar as; ******His blood be upon us and our children.

---

Sin is serious and never only harms one person. Your sin not only harms you but the entire Church. So really it’s not God you should be upset with since He not only gave Adam and Eve sufficient knowledge of the seriousness of their vocation but He likewise gave them plenty of grace to carry out their vocation. Is it just that we inherit the consequences for our parents sin? The answer is yes since it was our parent’s will that we inherit it and God has respected the choice they made with their free will.

****However, in His mercy He has also given us His only Son who likewise did not deserve to suffer the consequences for sin, so that through His life, death, and resurrection we might have eternal life with Him. He has saved us and has given us the grace to transform death from a consequence, into an act of supreme love. ****
With Christ we can now say: O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting? 1 Corinthians 15:55

This troubles me seriously , and seems to be leading me to a point where I have to make a decision as to whether in all conscience I can carry on believing .

****What you should be doing is asking yourself why you are not rejoicing with Saint Paul? Why are you still upset about death which Christ conquered and which we now endure in order to fully imitate Him and His love? Death is not a bad thing unless you’re attached to the things of this world and to sin. ****
.

 

[grannymh]

From post 62.

Regarding this now popular statement.

Adam and Eve were the representative of mankind and therefore assumed the responsibility for what would happen to mankind.

---

This is not, repeat not, the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Regarding this follow up statement which omits the Catholic doctrines on Original Sin.

Ah but see you have already distorted what happened. God created Adam and Eve to be the parents of the entire human race. In giving them this vocation, they also had the obligation to take care of themselves or else they would not only harm their own souls but also the future of mankind. ETC.

---

This idea of “vocation” is not, repeat not, the teaching of the Catholic Church…even though it sounds plausible. The Catholic Church doctrines are specific truths of Divine Revelation…not something plausible.

 

[yasure2cents]

Isa. 55: 6-11"Seek the LORD while he may be found, call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.*** For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts"***

Isa.45: 9 "Woe to him who strives with his Maker, an earthen vessel with the potter!
Does the clay say to him who fashions it, What are you making'? or Your work has no handles’?”

**Isa.29: 16 **” You turn things upside down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay; that the thing made should say of its maker, “He did not make me”; or the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?

Isa.64: 8 “Yet, O LORD, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou art our potter; we are all the work of thy hand.”

IMO My friend your asking the wrong question and looing at it from “bottom up- not TOP Down”

IT’S not that God HAD to; but that God’s Devine Nature saw such an act as befitting the crime. Nothing in life is “free”. God has every RIGHT as our Creator to demand certian things from us.

Consider God did not HAVE TO Create humanity al all

***YOU seem to forget that God OFFERS a very easy way to corect what He ses as Justice and you see as mean, evil, bad and nasty. BAPTISM; Christian Baptism makes one NEW and perfect [until we screw up again].

IF one chooses death that is what God gives to them. IT"SMANS" choice; God ONLY affirms what we have decided our eternity shll be. Amen!***

Here’s what God DESIRES
Deuteronomy 30:19 “I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live”

And Here is What Devine Justice DEMANDS

Ecclesiasticus 15:18 “Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him”

So we decide; what’s your choice:shrug:

it is amazing all these answers–

it really quite simple “really” adam and eve “broke the covenant” and breaking the covenant- had the consequence of death.

so don’t get buried with all the theological interpretation

 

[grannymh]

it is amazing all these answers–

it really quite simple “really” adam and eve “broke the covenant” and breaking the covenant- had the consequence of death.

so don’t get buried with all the theological interpretation

Tiny correction. While both sinned, it was Adam who shattered humanity’s holy relationship with divinity. This is why the Catholic Church holds fast to the doctrine of two, sole, real human parents of humankind.

Sources: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 404;
St. Thomas Aquinas, DeMalo 4,1; Romans 5: 12-21; Humani Generis #37; CCC 396-409

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

From post 62.

Regarding this now popular statement.

Adam and Eve were the representative of mankind and therefore assumed the responsibility for what would happen to mankind.

This is not, repeat not, the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Regarding this follow up statement which omits the Catholic doctrines on Original Sin.

Ah but see you have already distorted what happened. God created Adam and Eve to be the parents of the entire human race. In giving them this vocation, they also had the obligation to take care of themselves or else they would not only harm their own souls but also the future of mankind. ETC.

This idea of “vocation” is not, repeat not, the teaching of the Catholic Church…even though it sounds plausible. The Catholic Church doctrines are specific truths of Divine Revelation…not something plausible.

Thanks for the correction. I always thought of their role as parents as a vocation and I do not see how this omits the doctrine of Original sin.

 

[grannymh]

Thanks for the correction. I always thought of their role as parents as a vocation and I do not see how this omits the doctrine of Original sin.

The natural vocation as parents is found in God’s blessing of Adam and Eve,
Genesis 1: 28-31. It would be appreciated if you would explain the particulars of Original Sin as part of being a human parent with human children.

My guess is that due to the attempted modernization of basic Catholic doctrines, the significance of the real Original Sin is no longer taught or it is incorrectly taught.
This is so obvious on threads. It is like someone has taken a black marker and crossed off Genesis 1: 27.

Sources: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 355-421;
St. Thomas Aquinas, DeMalo 4,1; Romans 5: 12-21; Humani Generis #37; the first three chapters of Genesis

 

[grannymh]

Thanks for the correction. I always thought of their role as parents as a vocation and I do not see how this omits the doctrine of Original sin.

The vocation or role of human parents stipulates that there is a human parent and a human child. Correct? There is no stipulation that either the parent or the child must be a real God in this vocation.

Original Sin was an action which included a real God. Correct? At least it is correct in Catholicism.

Original sin stipulates that at least one being is a super-natural transcendent Pure Spirit without material/physical limitations. Logically, that fact omits the possibility of Original Sin as part of the *human *parent (two parents who are not God) vocation.

The “vocation” of the individual Adam was to remain in friendship with the real God. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 404-405) Original Sin is the act of Adam breaking apart humanity’s relationship with divinity. (also in CCC 404-405)

See additional sources in post 67.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

The vocation or role of human parents stipulates that there is a human parent and a human child. Correct? There is no stipulation that either the parent or the child must be a real God in this vocation.

You lost me.

Original Sin was an action which included a real God. Correct? At least it is correct in Catholicism.

A real God?

Original sin stipulates that at least one being is a super-natural transcendent Pure Spirit without material/physical limitations. Logically, that fact omits the possibility of Original Sin as part of the *human *parent (two parents who are not God) vocation.

I’m still lost.

The “vocation” of the individual Adam was to remain in friendship with the real God. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 404-405) Original Sin is the act of Adam breaking apart humanity’s relationship with divinity. (also in CCC 404-405)

See additional sources in post 67.

This is what I’ve been trying to say. Adam was given the responsibility for determining the type of relationship mankind would have with God because he represented all mankind. His role as representative was his vocation which he failed to uphold by sinning against God. Thus when the consequences of sin were given to Adam, they were also given to all of us, since Adam represented all of mankind.

 

[grannymh]

You lost me.

A real God?

I’m still lost.

This is what I’ve been trying to say. Adam was given the responsibility for determining the type of relationship mankind would have with God because he represented all mankind. His role as representative was his vocation which he failed to uphold by sinning against God. Thus when the consequences of sin were given to Adam, they were also given to all of us, since Adam represented all of mankind.

I am so sorry you feel lost about the Catholic teaching on Original Sin.

This may be due to not using the* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition*, paragraphs 355-421. If you are using this Catechism and need help with a particular paragrah, please PM me and I will return to this thead. Otherwise, I have said all that I can say.

Some people do have trouble because they miss the fact that being in friendship with God is having sanctifying grace. You and me do share in God’s life because Adam and you and me are made in the image of God – which means we have a spiritual principle known as our rational, immortal, non-material spiritual soul.

I am so sorry that you are lost in regard to the wonderful Catholic teachings on our own, personal human nature which goes beyond being a human parent. In fact, it is important to understand Catholic teaching because there are people who are *not *parents.

I think that part of the reason for not understanding what it meant when Adam preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned his Creator, is that people have not read Genesis 3: 5 in the light of who God really is as the Creator. Once people realize that God has a different status from Adam, people will be able to recognize what Original Sin really is. By status, I mean that God is a super-natural transcendent, loving, personal Pure Spirit, and Adam is not a super-natural Pure Spirit. That important bit of knowledge is explained in CCC 355 and following.

Yes, the God in Genesis, chapters one through three, is a real God and not the human figure people use to escape the reality of Adam and an actual Original Sin. See the posts which keep referring to God as being like a human parent.

The really sad thing about not accepting Catholic teaching regarding Adam, is that there is the tendency to miss the importance of John 3: 16 and Romans 5: 12-31. In other words, we have lost the true meaning of Jesus obediently hanging bleeding on the cross.

Now, I do realize that it takes guts to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. In no way, is the book a page-turner. Yet, those who do desire to learn Catholic teaching about our origin and our present human nature should attempt reading paragraphs 355-421

If a person is willing to spend more than a New York minute learning Catholicism, I recommend reading paragraphs 18-22, “Practical Directions for Using This Catechism”. I also recommend using the book’s Glossary for definitions. And of course, one could read the cross-references in the margin.

For example, meditating on the Catechism fact that God calls us to share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life can help us turn away from sins.

Again, I am sorry that you feel lost. All I can do is to recommend that you begin to learn what the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition teaches.

I have said all that I can say.
If you have questions about the Catechism, please PM me so I will know to return to this thread.

May God bless you and all others in your love for God.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

My confusion was from the way you presented your explanation, not from the doctrine itself so to speak. Your last explanation was much better for someone of limited understanding such as myself. Thanks for the response and for your time.

 

[grannymh]

My confusion was from the way you presented your explanation, not from the doctrine itself so to speak. Your last explanation was much better for someone of limited understanding such as myself. Thanks for the response and for your time.

I did so little.

I have been thinking about the love of parents for children. Your calling that a vocation is a wonderful way to describe it. Our loving is an imitation of God’s love for us.

Too often, we only think about Adam’s Original Sin when he did not want to live as a creature in submission to God. Adam, as the first human, scorned God and thus he broke his spiritual relationship with God.

Maybe we should think about God’s beautiful creation especially now as the trees come to life, the birds sing, and tiny green flower leaves pop out of the ground to greet the sunshine. God saw all that He created as good. Then He made the first human and his spouse even better because God created their spiritual souls which is another way of saying that Adam and Eve were created in the image of God. With the spiritual soul, Adam had the capability to love God and live with Him in eternal joy. It is hard to understand how Adam could give in to the temptation of Satan. Yet, he did.

What would you think about this? Adam sinned seriously, but he did not lose his capability to love. Original Sin was behind Adam when he and Eve, having left Eden, began having children. Here is where their vocation to love their children began. Human nature was wounded by Adam’s Original Sin. Yet, human nature was not destroyed. Therefore, the human capability to love remained with Adam and Eve.

 

[BobCatholic]

Adam and Eve did the crime, Let THEM do the crime.

Since we are doing the time, we are punished for their crime.

[BIBLEDRB]Genesis 3:17-19[/BIBLEDRB]

This does not sound like a “consequence” - it is a CURSE. A PUNISHMENT.

But wait

[BIBLEDRB]Genesis 3:23-24[/BIBLEDRB]

God CAST THEM OUT. Why? Because it was a PUNISHMENT.

Like kicking out an irresponsible son out of the house.

We are held temporally responsible for Adam and Eve’s sin - but not Spiritually responsible - Jesus Christ paid that price and we are free from that.

 

[grannymh]

Adam and Eve did the crime, Let THEM do the crime.

Since we are doing the time, we are punished for their crime.

[bibledrb]Genesis 3:17-19[/bibledrb]

This does not sound like a “consequence” - it is a CURSE. A PUNISHMENT.

But wait

[bibledrb]Genesis 3:23-24[/bibledrb]

God CAST THEM OUT. Why? Because it was a PUNISHMENT.

Like kicking out an irresponsible son out of the house.

We are held temporally responsible for Adam and Eve’s sin - but not Spiritually responsible - Jesus Christ paid that price and we are free from that.

Ooops!
The nature of the crime was omitted. :tsktsk:

Catholicism factors in the nature of Adam’s sin. “Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendents.” No fault = no personal responsibility.

Original Sin is a deprivation of Adam’s original holiness and justice. It is the state, not the act, which is transmitted by propagation. Human nature was wounded in the natural powers proper to it. Consequently, the transmitted human nature was subject to ignorance, suffering, and the dominion of death. We became inclined to yield to triple concupiscence. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin; however, the consequences for human nature remain. We are summoned to spiritual battle.

What did God do? Read John 3: 16.

Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 374-421.

 

[BobCatholic]

Ooops!
The nature of the crime was omitted. :tsktsk:

Catholicism factors in the nature of Adam’s sin. “Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendents.” No fault = no personal responsibility.

Original Sin is a deprivation of Adam’s original holiness and justice. It is the state, not the act, which is transmitted by propagation. Human nature was wounded in the natural powers proper to it. Consequently, the transmitted human nature was subject to ignorance, suffering, and the dominion of death. We became inclined to yield to triple concupiscence. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin; however, the consequences for human nature remain. We are summoned to spiritual battle.

What did God do? Read John 3: 16.

Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 374-421.

Correct.

Jesus Christ took care of the SPIRITUAL punishment, that’s John 3:16.

But he didn’t take care of the TEMPORAL punishment. That’s why we’re not in the Garden of Eden awaiting our trip to heaven. That’s why we suffer.

We are held temporally responsible for Adam’s sin.

 

[grannymh]

Correct.

Jesus Christ took care of the SPIRITUAL punishment, that’s John 3:16.

But he didn’t take care of the TEMPORAL punishment. That’s why we’re not in the Garden of Eden awaiting our trip to heaven. That’s why we suffer.

We are held temporally responsible for Adam’s sin.

Pardon me. Post 74 clearly states the Catholic teaching that there is no personal responsibility or personal fault in Adam’s descendents. In addition, because Original Sin is transmitted by propagation there is no temporary aspect to it. As post 74 said, human nature was wounded and this consequence remained in the nature transmitted to Adam’s descendents.

As True God and True Man, Jesus restored and/or repaired the shattered relationship between humanity and divinity. What we often forget is that Adam, the creature, does not have the same status of God, the Creator.

My apology, but I cannot infer that a spiritual punishment is the same as Adam’s action of preferring himself over God. Recall that Adam, the creature had to live in free submission to God, his Creator. Because Adam was the first human, in him was the whole human race “as one body of one man”. (CCC 404) We do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone but for all human nature. (CCC 404)

To understand the serious significance of the actual Original Sin, please refer to an explanation in Romans 5:12-21

 

[BobCatholic]

Pardon me. Post 74 clearly states the Catholic teaching that there is no personal responsibility or personal fault in Adam’s descendents.

Then why are we punished for no fault?

We are not allowed in the Garden of Eden. We suffer. We are required to work for a living. Women have birth pains.

Thus, this is gravely unjust.

In addition, because Original Sin is transmitted by propagation there is no temporary aspect to it.

I didn’t say TEMPORARY. I said TEMPORAL. Not the same word.

As post 74 said, human nature was wounded and this consequence remained in the nature transmitted to Adam’s descendents.

And God refused to heal this human nature.

My apology, but I cannot infer that a spiritual punishment is the same as Adam’s action of preferring himself over God.

Adam was created imperfectly. Depending on how the verse is interpreted, either Adam was cowardly, stupid, naieve or other imperfection. Thus he made a mistake because of his weakness or imperfection.

God should have made Adam and Eve perfect. That way they would never have fallen.

 

[fhansen]

Adam was created imperfectly. Depending on how the verse is interpreted, either Adam was cowardly, stupid, naieve or other imperfection. Thus he made a mistake because of his weakness or imperfection.

God should have made Adam and Eve perfect. That way they would never have fallen.

My imperfections and the imperfections of the world around me have caused me to grow in a particular definitive realization: that I’m not God. Adam didn’t quite comprehend that fact. Perhaps only a being as perfect as God would realize that fact immediately. Maybe for the rest of us we’re in a process that can lead in any case to beings who appreciate God’s godhood all the more, who’ve grown in understanding of our necessity for Him, of His supreme “value” so to speak, still without forcing us to admit to such anything if we don’t like.

nd the Atonement with it’s promise of eternal life and happiness makes up for the temporary temporal imperfections IMO, hard as they can be. The Catechism teaches that God created the universe “in statu viae”, in a state of journeying, towards perfection. I believe that our wills are beings educated/perfected-this is a part of man’s perfection, as we come to freely will rightly.

 

[BobCatholic]

My imperfections and the imperfections of the world around me have caused me to grow in a particular definitive realization: that I’m not God. Adam didn’t quite comprehend that fact.

Which is an imperfection. And Adam fell because of that imperfection.

If Adam were perfect, he’d know he’s not God and would have ignored the serpent’s lies.

God created Adam and Eve imperfect. Then punished them for falling. This is like a software developer who writes buggy code and then complains that the program is not working properly.

 

[fhansen]

Which is an imperfection. And Adam fell because of that imperfection.

If Adam were perfect, he’d know he’s not God and would have ignored the serpent’s lies.

God created Adam and Eve imperfect. Then punished them for falling. This is like a software developer who writes buggy code and then complains that the program is not working properly.

Maybe the “punishment” is part of the cure, potentially formative more than reformative or punitative in nature.