:twocents:
Good Afternoon Davidv: My question was what exactly did Adam disobey? It is another attribute of being human to be curious. And if per chance I am the product of a “Maker,” then I am sure that our curiosity is an inbuilt feature of our design, and therefore, the Maker would understand the curiosity regarding what was disobeyed.
I think grace is a fundamental attribute of all living things, and perhaps even inanimate things as well. To be is to have a certain grace. How does one fall from oneself? Wherever one falls, we are still what we are, and part of what we are is grace. It takes a lot of grace for even the vilest of things to lift its head each day and start anew in spite of odds and outcomes, don’t you think? Perhaps the fall from grace is simply the inability to see grace, or to take some other person’s or institution’s word for its absence.
I do enjoy it - I actually have that version on ITunes.
Thanks Bahman!This command:
What about curiosity makes the command in Genesis unclear, anything less than disobedience?
They either had kids by the day hence they are clean or they didn’t. So how we could be here as their children if they were supposed to die at the day they eat the fruit!?
Good Evening Davidv: So, it is your opinion that the act of disobedience was literally eating from a tree that imparted some sort of knowledge rather than the tree of knowledge being a metaphor for something?
It’s as good a speculation as any I would think. I cannot say for certain for instance that it was malice or rebellion. Rebellion usually happens when people are in a condition of malcontent, and my understanding is that Eden was not a place of adversity or malcontent. So what would be the cause of rebellion if it wasn’t with regard to conditions? It would also be hard to ascribe to some flaw in our nature, since our nature was something conferred upon us rather than something we applied for. All possible explanations short in my thinking from a logical or practical perspective.
The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. (CCC 396) Or, as was said in my old neighborhood, there cannot be two equal all-knowing gods – the Creator and Adam.
Seems to me this is making things more complicated than they actually are.
Whether malice or rebellion, it matters not. Disobedience is the sin.
Good Evening Grannymh: I wonder if an all knowing God would be unaware that something He created had an itch it couldn’t scratch, and therefore let it loose unattended in a garden with something it shouldn’t touch, lest He knew the likely outcome.
The five books of the Torah were traditional lore written by the patriarchal leaders of a culture in exile, and their purpose was to maintain the autonomy and cohesion of their culture. So it is very possible that you have hit the nail on the head with regard to obedience being the point. It still is the point with institutions. But I had always hoped that it actually related to something more profound such as the development of language or agriculture, or perhaps the intellect that robs humanity of the contentment known by other living creatures. It would truly be a disappointment if it turned out to be simply a matter of keeping people keeping other people in line, or “under their thumbs” so to speak.
How do you mean : How does one fall from oneself?
Good Morning Simpleas: This is a very big subject you bring up. The way I see it, grace does not exist without something or someone to exhibit it. It is an attribute that you and I bring to the world. As for us, we are what we produce. We are the smell of shampoo in hair, sunlight on skin, the sound of breath, kindness, violence, love, hate, thought, and among countless things - grace. If you walk past a person wearing blindfold, you are that which causes air to move. If you are the one wearing the blindfold, you are that which feels the air move. Without living things to produce it and experience it, and perhaps create language to give it syntax, it simply doesn’t exist as anything but a potential. What we do is to collapse potentials into realities, and so it is with grace. These are simply some of the things that make up what we are. We cannot fall from what we are. The pinnacle of all human achievement is to simply be that which we are in the felt presence of immediate experience. When we dream, we dream of experience, when we remember, we remember experience, when we plan, we plan for experience, when we hope, we hope for experience, when we dread, we dread experience. Experience is what we are about, and in partaking in experience, we create the world. None of it happens without you and me, and that includes grace. We are what we create, and we not fall from what we are.
Good Morning Granny!
What is profound is the immense havoc that such a simple act (disobedience) entailed. It is the disobedience that results in discontentment. Sin comes first. I see no evidence in Genesis that Adam and Eve were discontent prior to their first sin.
However this is not the end of the story. Jesus’ death and resurrection opened the gates of heaven and permits us to repent and be reconciled with God and neighbor.
This idea from post 631 “The only joy we know is the joy we feel.”
If there was no discontent, what would you think the their motive might have been?
From understanding the history, culture and circumstances of the Jewish people at the time the stories were written. Also, from watching people throughout all periods in history (including the present) when it comes to power.
I had only offered possible meanings of the tree, but never said I actually knew the meaning of the tree. The meaning of the tree was actually my question.
Why would Adam do something so counterintuitive if he wasn’t made by his designer to have an appetition for doing such things? To me it means that there had to be either a flaw in our design or a malfunction. One of the two. Take your pick, but either a flaw in the design of a “created” thing or a malfunction of a “created” thing puts culpability right back on the “creator.” If we are created, then we simply function as designed, and anything we do when functioning as designed is the intent of the creator. This includes disobedience. If, however, we do not act as designed, this is a malfunction. Malfunctions are caused by design flaws, or operating the creation under conditions outside the intent of the design, all of which is square on the head of the “creator.”
