Adam & Logic, 2nd Edition

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Cool, thanks for your thoughts.

I have read a few piece’s here and there about Grace, most saying that Grace is always present, that it can not be earned, we do not make Grace I don’t think, but we can accept and receive Grace if we will it.

Don’t we fall from what we are through sin? We sometimes don’t quite make the mark, and live as we could live? As with Adam, he had the Grace needed to live a holy life, yet he fell from himself. Maybe he forgot that he needed only to accept Grace from God to be able to resist the temptation, he was only human after all.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts Simpleas. Personally, I have seen God’s grace in the worst of people and at the worst of times. For me at least, it doesn’t seem to track goodness in particular over other human features. I think that learning to love and accept ourselves and others is one way to experience grace. And if someone loves you enough, then how can you ever fall? The whole thing is about us right here on the ground I think.

All the best,
Gary
 
Thank you for sharing your thoughts Simpleas. Personally, I have seen God’s grace in the worst of people and at the worst of times. For me at least, it doesn’t seem to track goodness in particular over other human features. I think that learning to love and accept ourselves and others is one way to experience grace. And if someone loves you enough, then how can you ever fall? The whole thing is about us right here on the ground I think.

All the best,
Gary
This sentence made me think of it this way : If God loves you enough, then how can you ever fall?

Yes I think it is about us right here on earth. We pray that God’s will be on earth as it is in heaven, when we pray the Our Father. Maybe we all have a different idea of what Heaven will be like, funny I don’t always think about Heaven, but I’d guess it would be a place/state where all beings are at peace with each other, because that is what I pray for our planet right here right now, along with my tiny actions for what I believe is good.

Yes you could be right about accepting ourselves and others as a way to experience Grace, if we are at peace with ourselves then we won’t be preoccupied with trying to change others to how we believe they should be. We have so many big voices in this world telling us whats right and whats wrong, and a person can loose themself and not even know what they by their own conscience believes to be right or wrong.
Hey Adam and Eve only had one being telling them what was right and wrong! They had it easy! 😃
 
This sentence made me think of it this way : If God loves you enough, then how can you ever fall?
Answer to question: “If God loves you enough, then how can you ever fall?”

A human can fall because there is a difference between the human person and God.😃

This “difference” supports the logic of a necessary Adam individual who, with his spouse Eve, are the necessary founders of the human species.
 
Answer to question: “If God loves you enough, then how can you ever fall?”

A human can fall because there is a difference between the human person and God.😃

This “difference” supports the logic of a necessary Adam individual who, with his spouse Eve, are the necessary founders of the human species.
🙂

We were only ever made in the image of God, not as God’s, so I understand that difference. And not being God’s we can fall, especially when our spirit is broken, but if Grace is always present, we never fall completely.
 
Yes you could be right about accepting ourselves and others as a way to experience Grace, if we are at peace with ourselves then we won’t be preoccupied with trying to change others to how we believe they should be. We have so many big voices in this world telling us whats right and whats wrong, and a person can loose themself and not even know what they by their own conscience believes to be right or wrong.

Hey Adam and Eve only had one being telling them what was right and wrong! They had it easy! 😃
Good Morning Simpleas: I agree with everything you’re saying. Finding peace with ourselves is a hard thing for humans to do. If you visit certain aboriginal people, they seem to be at peace. They seem content, but this may be because they have absolutely nothing and have reached a sort of equilibrium with the world around them. Once you’ve been part of what we call an advanced civilization, having nothing is a hard threshold to cross. Being at peace with ourselves is a thing that our culture has made nearly impossible.

I think the main reason for that can be seen in this vey short 3 minute clip if you have 3 minutes:

youtube.com/watch?v=IP-jvxopEF0

All the best,
Gary
 
🙂

We were only ever made in the image of God, not as God’s, so I understand that difference. And not being God’s we can fall, especially when our spirit is broken, but if Grace is always present, we never fall completely.
We can fall completely when we freely commit a mortal sin. God remains the same.
 
Good Morning Simpleas: I agree with everything you’re saying. Finding peace with ourselves is a hard thing for humans to do. If you visit certain aboriginal people, they seem to be at peace. They seem content, but this may be because they have absolutely nothing and have reached a sort of equilibrium with the world around them. Once you’ve been part of what we call an advanced civilization, having nothing is a hard threshold to cross. Being at peace with ourselves is a thing that our culture has made nearly impossible.

I think the main reason for that can be seen in this vey short 3 minute clip if you have 3 minutes:

youtube.com/watch?v=IP-jvxopEF0

All the best,
Gary
Thanks, interesting clip, always had the odd thought about a “matrix” world etc, and I’ve recently thought about the people who live in tribes in the remote parts of rain forest and other places. I saw I program researching Volcano’s and the crew spent time with the tribal families that live near it, they all seemed so happy living so close to nature and their leader believes he can/does control the volcano when it gets mad.
I would suppose that’s why many of us love to walk in the countryside and be close to nature from time to time. (there are some that don’t though!!)
👍
 
We can fall completely when we freely commit a mortal sin. God remains the same.
Withholding comment because the thread will turn into a mortal sin thread beyond Adam & Logic and I think I’ve derailed a few times now! 😉
 
At times, it seems to me that it is the author of the first three chapters who originally applied logic to Adam’s existence.

First. It is obvious that the author did not live in an “ivory tower.” He was aware that there was plenty of evil in his geographical location. Genesis 3:23.

Second. The author omitted the glories of the Hebrew people in the midst of paganism. According to today’s standards, he should have started with Abraham.

Third. CCC 388 points out.
**388 **With the progress of Revelation, the reality of sin is also illuminated. Although to some extent the People of God in the Old Testament had tried to understand the pathos of the human condition in the light of the history of the fall narrated in Genesis, they could not grasp this story’s ultimate meaning, which is revealed only in the light of the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. We must know Christ as the source of grace in order to know Adam as the source of sin. The Spirit-Paraclete, sent by the risen Christ, came to “convict the world concerning sin”, by revealing him who is its Redeemer.

Considering the above three points, how did the author know about the singular human appropriately named Adam?

In my humble opinion, this is a situation where love begets logic.

In Genesis 1:1- 25, the author’s appreciation of the creative actions of a loving God overrides natural science. Yet, when one looks closely at these verses, there is the first principle of the scientific method, which is to observe without prejudice. While not described in modern terms, the basic elements of the universe are observed. I can imagine the Genesis author looking up at the stars and down at the plants soon to be his dinner. He recognizes that only God could have created all of it in the beginning. Genesis 1:1

The problem existed as to how there can be both good and evil when there is only One God as Creator and there are lots of human creatures who apparently have the capability of doing evil. Genesis 2: 15-17, in my opinion, is the beginning of the solution to that problem. These verses emphasize that the relationship between humans and God is not a relationship of two equal beings. Genesis 1: 26-27.

As CCC 396 points out.
**396 **God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: “for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.” The “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

There is a lot more about the relationship between humanity and Divinity; however, for now, I would like to propose the logical solution which flows from God’s love for us.

The author of the first three chapters of Genesis had a realistic view of humanity in that each individual could choose her or his own belief in God.

As CCC 1730 points out.
Note: the significance of small print is explained in CCC 20-21.
**1730 **God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”
The following is in small print.

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.
Not in the *CCC *words, but the above was recognized by the author.
Genesis; 1: 26-28; Genesis 2: 15-17; Genesis 3: 11.

There being only One God Who loved every person, regardless of the person’s choice to love God or not to love God, it was easy for the author to see the logic of creating one humankind. This God did because it is obvious that the human species is peerless among the creatures on earth. Yet, the question remains. How can the oneness of the human species be assured for all humans when humans, themselves, are capable of dividing between good and bad choices in regard to a human relationship with Divinity?

:doh2:

The first created human would naturally transmit, with his spouse, their human nature to their descendants who in turn would transmit the post Fall nature of Adam and Eve to their descendants who in turn …
It is human nature per se which is essential in propagation.

One original human person, in whom was all humanity “as one body of man” became the perfect logical solution to the problem of multiple free thinking descendants. (Information source. CCC 404; CCC 402)

Yes, I know that the author of the first three chapters of Genesis did not have the opportunity to read De Malo 4,1 by St. Thomas Aquinas. In addition, the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 404 was not available.Yet, there was the principle that “like follows like.” Ants do not give birth to elephants and neither do elephants give birth to ants.

One first person and his spouse would give birth to descendants who would be loved by God because their first ancestor was loved by God.
 
Thank you granny for your excellent treatise on the first chapters of Genesis.

That said, I don’t see scripture as having to do with science or logic, which are merely human ways of understanding what faith already has shown us (e.g. that there is a physical universe).

Scirpture is the revelation of the Word,
from the beginning whereby all creation was brought into being,
to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which in time revealed that sacrifice of the innocent Lamb at the foundation of the world.
It constitutes a dialogue between man and God, requiring the graces of the Holy Spirit.
The authors of Genesis, like Abraham, and we ourselves, in trying to understand the depths of its meaning, are all inspired.

No logic, no science can reach this truth; they can only confirm.
And, at this still primitive (I do believe that mankind as a whole, like ourselves as individuals, is on a journey to God.) point in man’s existence on earth, science does this very poorly, imho.
 
Genesis does not stop at chapter 3.

God creating the first fully human man and woman can be acceptable to most people who believe in God.
Yet most all creation stories share abit of similarity, some may have God’s/Goddess’ mating with humans, Genesis doesn’t have God mating with humans, but it does have an account of sons of God and daughters of men mating and having children.
The Nephilim sound like another race. Although God creates the first human couple, there was interaction between another race and the human race according to the account.

I’ll assume the author of gen 1-3 is the same for all of the genesis’ accounts, and that what he describes in gen 6 can be taken at value just as chapters 1-3 are.

Maybe the flood sorted it all out, and only noah and his family being pure human were saved and all others perished.

I just thought about the idea of only one set of humans, why would it be wrong to believe that God created many humans, that the human race began with a few extra people to “kick start it”.
Is the answer because we can’t have original sin then?

Just throwing some thoughts out.
 
I can see both perspectives as valid:
  • Logic - even of a “scientific” nature - has its place in theology.
  • Logic - especially of a “scientific” nature - is limited when it comes to theology.
Here’s a briefing sheet that discusses this:
testoffaith.com/resources/resource.aspx?id=245

Other briefing sheets are at
testoffaith.com/resources/resources.aspx?resource=true&catid=10&id=144

I find them to be helpful, concise summaries on various topics in which science and faith relate.
In practical life, logic is a good way to understand truths, both material and spiritual.

My apology. But this older than dirt granny could not get to the actual resources.
 
Genesis does not stop at chapter 3.

God creating the first fully human man and woman can be acceptable to most people who believe in God.
Yet most all creation stories share abit of similarity, some may have God’s/Goddess’ mating with humans, Genesis doesn’t have God mating with humans, but it does have an account of sons of God and daughters of men mating and having children.
The Nephilim sound like another race. Although God creates the first human couple, there was interaction between another race and the human race according to the account.

I’ll assume the author of gen 1-3 is the same for all of the genesis’ accounts, and that what he describes in gen 6 can be taken at value just as chapters 1-3 are.

Maybe the flood sorted it all out, and only noah and his family being pure human were saved and all others perished.

I just thought about the idea of only one set of humans, why would it be wrong to believe that God created many humans, that the human race began with a few extra people to “kick start it”.
Is the answer because we can’t have original sin then?

Just throwing some thoughts out.
As I have said in the past, I only deal with the Catholic doctrines flowing from the first three chapters of Genesis.

From post 667.
“I just thought about the idea of only one set of humans, why would it be wrong to believe that God created many humans, that the human race began with a few extra people to “kick start it”.
Is the answer because we can’t have original sin then?”

Because we can’t have Original Sin is the correct answer. :yeah_me:
 
I just thought about the idea of only one set of humans, why would it be wrong to believe that God created many humans, that the human race began with a few extra people to “kick start it”.
Is the answer because we can’t have original sin then?

QUOTE]

Good Evening Simpleas: I don’t think we necessarily have to twist the world around to make room for original sin. A few hundred years ago, astronomers created what are called epicycles in which the planets and stars supposedly moved in contorted motions to satisfy the notion that the earth was the center of the universe. They did this because what we could observe was in conflict with a theological idea (in this case, that the earth was the center of things). But this notion had to be abandoned eventually to reconcile with common sense and observation. Same goes for original sin coming from two specific people. It is more easily explained as a story that is making literary reference to some aspect of the human condition that probably involved some threshold we crossed without the rest of the animal kingdom. Was it language, agriculture, imagination or who knows what? I think it would be hard to say. I think maybe it was a combination of the three, but I’m pretty certain that there was never a time when humans spontaneously appeared as a novelty within nature. I think we simply grew from it like everything else.

All the best,
Gary
 
One of the ways, we can find the logic of Adam being the first original human is to go deep into the truths found in Genesis, the first three chapters.

Please notice the dramatic shift from Genesis 1: 25 to Genesis 1:26.

Like today’s scientists, the author of the first three chapters of Genesis observed surrounding nature without prejudice. It is not necessary for us to debate the way the surrounding universe is described. What we are looking for is the basic truth in verses 1-25, Genesis chapter 1. It should be obvious that Genesis 1:1 is a basic Catholic doctrine professed in the Creed said during the Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Apparently, the author spent a lot of time outside. Perhaps he was a horticulturist like his original first ancestor. 🙂

The author observed sky, earth, moon, water, sunshine, night, day as being somewhat static, fixed, stationary in their material capabilities. The living creatures, while they are mobile and need nourishment, depended on their material environment while living and at death, their physical/material anatomy became another part of the material environment. In his spare time, he was the provider for his large family, the author indulged in his zoology hobby. Not having the time to complete a Ph.D., still, the author was well aware of one of the basic biological truths in Genesis 2: 19-20.

Naturally, the author both observed and learned from history aka tradition, that the human species was unique. Our human species, the descendants of Adam and Eve, is peerless. One of the major differences between them and us is that like Adam, we have a goal beyond the physical. As stated in Genesis 1: 26-28, all humans have a spiritual principle. Our nature unites both the material world and the spiritual world into one glorious human nature. We are called to share, by knowledge and love, in the life of the Divine Creator. Genesis 2:15-17.

The population in which the author lived had a strong faith in the One God. This One God interacted with people. Note that with his high IQ, the author could have accumulated a fortune by educating the leaders of any one of the surrounding pagan groups. However, the author would not give up his love relationship with his Creator. He understood the truth about how and why the Creator God loved his human creatures. Genesis 1: 26-28. He recognized that the loving Creator did not abandon Adam and his spouse Eve, when Adam committed the Original Sin. Genesis 3: 11 and Genesis 3: 15. The difficulty the author faced was how could he ever describe the horrible act of Adam.

It was the horror of Adam scorning the Creator which haunted the author. As an expert farmer, he was very familiar with the horror of rotten fruit which often had the potential of causing serious sickness and sometimes death. In addition, he knew the consequences of eating certain berries that always caused death. When the author described God’s command in Genesis 2:15-17, he was stating the serious limitation that Adam would have to face. As a spiritual human creature, Adam had to freely live in submission to his Maker. He could not scorn God.

Being all powerful, the Divine Creator has complete freedom of His actions. In creating the unique human nature, God gives us the dignity of a person who can initiate and control our actions. I can see eyes light up. What about severely handicapped humans?

Quote from *CCC *1260
**1260 **“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”

We humans are smart, but God is smarter.

It should be plain common sense, that if all humans, regardless of human impediments, have the opportunity to share in the spiritual life of our Creator, then God must insure that all humans have that spiritual ability.

:doh2:

God made sure that every human absolutely is in the image of God. He made sure that all humans would be able to reach the eternal joy in heaven by having all humans descend from the first two humans who appeared on planet earth.
 
simpleas;12743177:
I just thought about the idea of only one set of humans, why would it be wrong to believe that God created many humans, that the human race began with a few extra people to “kick start it”.
Is the answer because we can’t have original sin then?

QUOTE]

Good Evening Simpleas: I don’t think we necessarily have to twist the world around to make room for original sin. A few hundred years ago, astronomers created what are called epicycles in which the planets and stars supposedly moved in contorted motions to satisfy the notion that the earth was the center of the universe. They did this because what we could observe was in conflict with a theological idea (in this case, that the earth was the center of things). But this notion had to be abandoned eventually to reconcile with common sense and observation. Same goes for original sin coming from two specific people. It is more easily explained as a story that is making literary reference to some aspect of the human condition that probably involved some threshold we crossed without the rest of the animal kingdom. Was it language, agriculture, imagination or who knows what? I think it would be hard to say. I think maybe it was a combination of the three, but I’m pretty certain that there was never a time when humans spontaneously appeared as a novelty within nature. I think we simply grew from it like everything else.

All the best,
Gary
Good for you that you are certain! 😃

Yes so if we say we think there could have been more than one set of humans, then we can not say we contracted a fallen nature from them, but being someone with a big imagination I can leave it open :D.
As humans we have the ability to create, I believe the first ever created paintings were of human hands in a cave. What I don’t know is how we got knowledge of language, agriculture etc. I only know that we usually learn from another, so unless some humans from ages past just became aware and were able to start creating around them, or they were taught by God. Obviously not taught everything (although some populations were very advanced) but given enough knowledge to start off with.

But the idea of growing from it as you say, how do you fit in the idea of us having a soul?

God gives each individual a soul regardless of their physical condition, Adam and Eve give us a fallen nature.

Random question : have you read Chariots of the Gods by Erich von Daniken?

Thanks.
 
As I have said in the past, I only deal with the Catholic doctrines flowing from the first three chapters of Genesis.

From post 667.
“I just thought about the idea of only one set of humans, why would it be wrong to believe that God created many humans, that the human race began with a few extra people to “kick start it”.
Is the answer because we can’t have original sin then?”

Because we can’t have Original Sin is the correct answer. :yeah_me:
I do respect that you only deal with the first three chapters of Genesis.

I find it hard to ignore some of the writings that come later.

Thanks 🙂
 
Reading CAF posts, it seems that the best way of finding the logic of Adam is to accept the fact that the author of the first three chapters of Genesis believed in One totally almighty God Who gave humans the power to communicate with Him.

When someone tries to fit God’s actions into human shoes, various errors can occur. For example. When one’s view of the presented world comes from one’s own perspective, that view is often a myopic one. The deepest truths of the universe can become blurred because the “human” focus is one’s own internal feelings and subjective views. It becomes difficult to imagine a God beyond the visible environment. A God Who loves His human creatures to the point of inviting them to have, in His image, joy eternal.

The first three chapters of Genesis firmly state the existence of a loving God. By letting go of our internal source of information, even for a brief time, we are then able to explore the meanings (plural intended) of our human life.

Information source. Genesis 1: 1; Genesis 1: 26-27; Genesis 2: 15-17; Genesis 3: 9-11.

In this same information source is the evidence of God communicating with the human species. The nitty-gritty is that there are far more verses describing the communications between the human Adam and his Creator God then there are verses describing the universe top to bottom.
 
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