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simpleas
Guest
Gen 3 : 22.
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fhansen
Guest
Adam & Eve’s act moved them further away from godhood, not closer to it. Had they obeyed, and better yet, eaten from the Tree of Life instead, they’d have moved directly towards Him. Because they didn’t, we need a Redeemer. But God never abandoned us; as it turns out we’re still moving towards God’s plan of perfection/divinization, just taking the longer/experiential way around-*back *to the Tree of Life to put it one way.
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simpleas
Guest
Adam and Eve were sinless, how close to God would that have made them. Pretty close I would think, the whole point to being like God is to be in a state of grace, without sin, loving God and other, all this I would think A&E were capable of.
They didn’t remain like this because they had freewill. Something God gave when he created them, not as an after thought or something.
The inspired text “look the man has become like one of us with knowledge of Good and Evil”
So they became more like God, not in a complete way of course, because they were created as humans not Gods, but now they could choose their own plan…(freewill.)
God knew all this before he even ignited the first explosion, for me it becomes slighty strange that all we ever think is that we are sinners, like we must never believe we could become like God, when this is what God wants of us.
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grannymh
Guest
Three quick comments.
- Genesis 3: 22 needs to be read as part of Genesis 3: 21-24. It is not a “single statement.”
- Hopefully, the partial comment “we could become like God, when this is what God wants of us” refers to our sharing in God’s life which is what happens when we are in the State of Sanctifying Grace.
- Adam has the natural ability to choose his own plan for his own life from the very beginning.
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fhansen
Guest
Now, are you saying that God wanted them to eat of the fruit that He commanded them not to eat? They already possessed free will, which is why they were able to eat of it-to disobey- begin with.
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simpleas
Guest
No I’m not saying God wanted them to eat of the fruit, I’m saying God already knew what they would do. We say God knows all from beginning to end.
What I’m questioning in my thoughts, which happen to come on here, is where is the Original sin?
A&E were in the state of Grace, this Graceful state as we know does not prevent a person from committing a mortal sin or a venal sin. I’m not saying it was wrong of God to place A&E in this state or anything like that. What I’m saying is from the first two humans, this abuse of freewill was inevitable, because God was aware it would happen. He gave the human creature all the same abilities as other creatures, and then gave the extra ability of a freewill.
A&E had to stand on their own two feet sort of thing, inorder to develop their human minds. So gaining knowledge of Good and Evil.
We are baptised and the O.S is wiped away, but at sometime in our life we will commit a mortal sin according to our church teaching on what is a mortal sin. So none of us can escape a mortal sin, just as A&E did not escape it.
So that is why I think God intended us to be as we are. Yes always trying to be holy, but that humans are Gods creation, not Adam and Eve’s creation.
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grannymh
Guest
The Original Sin is disobedience.
The abuse of free will is not inevitable. Abuse is normally an action which has to be chosen.
Free will belongs to the spiritual soul. It is not an extra anything.
Knowledge of good and evil is our conscience which is not separate from our human nature.
That is not a Catholic teaching.
Human nature is decomposing anatomy and spiritual soul. We inherit Adam and Eve’s post-Fall human nature which is the contracted State of Original Sin. Original Sin did not destroy human nature; it wounded human nature.
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Beircheart
Guest
No, eating from the Tree of Life as opposed to the tree of knowledge would not have moved us closer to God for it, too, would have been willful disobedience against God’s wishes. Lots of things may have been different from that point forward and they are speculative by their very nature. The only certitude is the transgression would remain and dire consequences would necessarily follow. Our movement would still undeniably have been away from God.
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fhansen
Guest
How would eating of the Tree of Life be against God’s wishes??
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Beircheart
Guest
My understanding is that there is no Catholic requirement to believe in a Garden, two literal and off limits fruit bearing trees, or a seven-day creation. Which is good, because I don’t!
From the CCC: The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents (CCC 390).
I find myself again in the position of saying, I honestly don’t know what that primeval event or deed was. I am painfully aware there is a LOT of stuff I don’t know! However, I see no reason not to believe in Original Sin as being inherited ever since. Recall, Original Sin is not an act but rather the inherited consequence of an act: the state of not being naturally in sanctifying grace.
If, whatever it was, resulted in Adam and Eve being stripped of that sanctifying grace as a permanent condition of their very nature they could not very well transmit to any subsequent offspring that which they no longer possess. That seems pretty straight forward, at least to me.
For what it is worth, I found this link to be both confusing and helpful:
newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm
From the CCC: The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents (CCC 390).
I find myself again in the position of saying, I honestly don’t know what that primeval event or deed was. I am painfully aware there is a LOT of stuff I don’t know! However, I see no reason not to believe in Original Sin as being inherited ever since. Recall, Original Sin is not an act but rather the inherited consequence of an act: the state of not being naturally in sanctifying grace.
If, whatever it was, resulted in Adam and Eve being stripped of that sanctifying grace as a permanent condition of their very nature they could not very well transmit to any subsequent offspring that which they no longer possess. That seems pretty straight forward, at least to me.
For what it is worth, I found this link to be both confusing and helpful:
newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm
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fhansen
Guest
The point is that God allowed them to eat of any tree except the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Eating from the fruit of* that tree symbolizes their act of willful disobedience. The Tree of Life certainly means something* in the story but whatever it is isn’t well understood while it has received some speculation, but in any case the eating of it does not represent disobedience.
For myself, Adam & Eve were meant to grow in any case from the level of goodness they were created in to an even higher level of perfection/holiness. This had to do with the* will,* as it does for humans today, and their active pursuit of greater knowledge of God, their pursuit of Him, would result in greater justice. The Tree of Life may well have represented the means to that pursuit, just my guess.
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simpleas
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Yes O.S is disobedience, disobedience is still the sin we can commit.
By the abuse of freewill by A&E being inevitable, I meant that God knew it would happen, yet he still went ahead with the garden, the trees and the serpent. Unless he thought he might have been surprised when the serpent tempted them and they refuse!
Well I think with the list of mortal sins we are provided with only God can be without sin, the three conditions aren’t always met granted, so maybe mortal sin isn’t so easily committed.
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Beircheart
Guest
My apologies! I suffered a momentary brain cramp and mistakenly thought BOTH were placed off limits. Though no power-user, I’ll investigate if I can delete my previous post lest it creates confusion.
Thanks for correcting me!
B.
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fhansen
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no problem-I thought that may’ve been the case in fact
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grannymh
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The Two Trees in the Garden
From the Catholic Bible Dictionary edited by Scott Hahn
books.google.com/books?id=RVQ1zjMLv8MC&pg=PA923&lpg=PA923&dq=Bible+dictionary,+tree+of+life+scott+hahn&source=bl&ots=ZoDW4cLJpD&sig=GaH9tKu4s7RngfZGgET7BIBtO14&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4JAcVYLiJNDWoASd_IKwAQ&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Bible%20dictionary%2C%20tree%20of%20life%20scott%20hahn&f=false
From the Catholic Bible Dictionary edited by Scott Hahn
books.google.com/books?id=RVQ1zjMLv8MC&pg=PA923&lpg=PA923&dq=Bible+dictionary,+tree+of+life+scott+hahn&source=bl&ots=ZoDW4cLJpD&sig=GaH9tKu4s7RngfZGgET7BIBtO14&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4JAcVYLiJNDWoASd_IKwAQ&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Bible%20dictionary%2C%20tree%20of%20life%20scott%20hahn&f=false
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grannymh
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:doh2:
Sometimes a reasonable demonstration of the logical reality of Adam is right under one’s nose. I posted the following in another thread. It should be right here.
I have never read all 50 chapters of Genesis. However, it is very apparent that the first three chapters are about the basic nature of the human person, Genesis 1-26-27, and the original friendship relationship between humanity and Divinity, Genesis 2: 15-17 as a beginning,continuing through chapter 3.
Naturally, the first three chapters describe God’s relationship with humanity. This friendship relationship, because it is between two very different levels of being, had strict requirements. As a creature, the way Adam could maintain his relationship with his Creator was to freely live in submission, that is, Adam had to freely obey his Creator.
Adam’s original State of Holiness aka State of Sanctifying Grace was meant for all human nature. This is why it would be necessary that one person, with his spouse, would be the first sole parents. One sole set of biological parents would guarantee that all future humans would be born in Adam’s State of Original Holiness.
Sometimes a reasonable demonstration of the logical reality of Adam is right under one’s nose. I posted the following in another thread. It should be right here.
I have never read all 50 chapters of Genesis. However, it is very apparent that the first three chapters are about the basic nature of the human person, Genesis 1-26-27, and the original friendship relationship between humanity and Divinity, Genesis 2: 15-17 as a beginning,continuing through chapter 3.
Naturally, the first three chapters describe God’s relationship with humanity. This friendship relationship, because it is between two very different levels of being, had strict requirements. As a creature, the way Adam could maintain his relationship with his Creator was to freely live in submission, that is, Adam had to freely obey his Creator.
Adam’s original State of Holiness aka State of Sanctifying Grace was meant for all human nature. This is why it would be necessary that one person, with his spouse, would be the first sole parents. One sole set of biological parents would guarantee that all future humans would be born in Adam’s State of Original Holiness.
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Hunho
Guest
grannymh, you make “to freely live in submission” to God almost sound like a jail sentence! I hope I’m misreading the subtext here. I’m in a process of preparing for Marian consecration, and I don’t want to think that consecrating myself to Jesus through Mary is giving up my freedom! I’d much rather see my Marian consecration the way Edward Sri describes it in his book Walking With Mary: A Biblical Journey from Nazareth to the Cross.
I can only hope that Sri’s description is as true and accurate as I believe it is. I wish that Adam and Eve had realized what they had and had not not thrown it away. And I am very thankful that God loves their descendants enough to pay the price to restore it to us.
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grannymh
Guest
Living in free submission to God is living in joy eternal in heaven. This is known as being in the presence of the Beatific Vision. God is perfect goodness. That is the reason we freely choose to obey (submission to) our God over Satan.
Consecrating oneself to Jesus through Mary is choosing to say yes to God by living according to His word. Living in free submission is another way of saying that we want to be obedient to God like Mary. Luke 1: 26-38.
I understand.
It is because you are using to your freedom of choice, that you are free to choose the “way of Mary.”
Mary gave up her freedom to do whatever she wanted. She chose to be submissive to God. She freely entrusted her life entirely to God. That is what Adam was suppose to do. Instead, he chose himself over God.
Living in submission to God is the strict requirement of obedience to God. There is no wiggle room. Adam used his freedom to disobey God. If I ever meet Adam, I am going to slap him upside the head.
You are choosing to use your freedom to consecrate yourself to Jesus through Mary. That is the best use of freedom. Being thankful that God loves us so much is using our human freedom to love God in return.
I admire you. You are in my prayers.
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grannymh
Guest
Regarding God’s simple solution of assuring all humans that they are in God’s image which is their ticket to heaven.
Please consider today’s problem. We are billions of people away from the time of Jesus Christ. St. Paul did not have a smart phone when he taught that Jesus Christ repaired humanity’s shattered original relationship with the Creator. According to Catholic teachings, Jesus Christ is True God and True Man. Therefore, He is on the level of the Creator and He can also step into the shoes of humans. He is the only person who can restore a relationship between two different levels of being, that is, between a creature and a Creator.
It is the plural source (large humanizing population) that is today’s problem. If we descended from some indiscriminate random breeding mixed population, how can we be certain that our shoes are the right ones to obtain salvation from God? Why should we have worry about being a descendant from a miscellaneous archaic fossil which does not have the creative power of making us in the image of God?
The Catholic Church relies on the common sense of the Creator Who invites us to eternal happiness.
Current humans face difficulties. God recognized that this would happen when humans left the harmony of God. There could also be ideas that some humans did not deserve salvation. The simple solution to human doubting was to guarantee that every human has the capability to have a sincere valid relationship with her/his Creator. This is because the human creature is in the spiritual image of the Creator. However, that solution could only remain firm and unchangeable if all humans descended from the very first progenitor who is in the image of God.
Adam did the wrong thing. The Catholic Church helps us deal with this through the Seven Sacraments, especially with the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. This is possible because being in the image of God, we can receive grace from Jesus Christ hanging bloody on His cross. John 3: 16-17.
None of us have to stick a label on our forehead saying that we are truly in the image of God and thus we are eligible for “salvation”. We absolutely know that we and all other humans are in the image of God because we are all descended from the first person and his spouse who are created in that image. The ticket to heaven, being in God’s image, is an essential part of our own human nature.
Believing in two sole parents of all of us is a deal maker.
Please consider today’s problem. We are billions of people away from the time of Jesus Christ. St. Paul did not have a smart phone when he taught that Jesus Christ repaired humanity’s shattered original relationship with the Creator. According to Catholic teachings, Jesus Christ is True God and True Man. Therefore, He is on the level of the Creator and He can also step into the shoes of humans. He is the only person who can restore a relationship between two different levels of being, that is, between a creature and a Creator.
It is the plural source (large humanizing population) that is today’s problem. If we descended from some indiscriminate random breeding mixed population, how can we be certain that our shoes are the right ones to obtain salvation from God? Why should we have worry about being a descendant from a miscellaneous archaic fossil which does not have the creative power of making us in the image of God?
The Catholic Church relies on the common sense of the Creator Who invites us to eternal happiness.
Current humans face difficulties. God recognized that this would happen when humans left the harmony of God. There could also be ideas that some humans did not deserve salvation. The simple solution to human doubting was to guarantee that every human has the capability to have a sincere valid relationship with her/his Creator. This is because the human creature is in the spiritual image of the Creator. However, that solution could only remain firm and unchangeable if all humans descended from the very first progenitor who is in the image of God.
Adam did the wrong thing. The Catholic Church helps us deal with this through the Seven Sacraments, especially with the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. This is possible because being in the image of God, we can receive grace from Jesus Christ hanging bloody on His cross. John 3: 16-17.
None of us have to stick a label on our forehead saying that we are truly in the image of God and thus we are eligible for “salvation”. We absolutely know that we and all other humans are in the image of God because we are all descended from the first person and his spouse who are created in that image. The ticket to heaven, being in God’s image, is an essential part of our own human nature.
Believing in two sole parents of all of us is a deal maker.
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Beircheart
Guest
One of the profound benefits of the evolutionary perspective is the awareness that God’s creation is not a one-and-done event. It wasn’t seven days and out but rather is ongoing and we are still in the throws of an eternally ongoing creation process. It is happening right now! I find that wonderfully exciting and uplifting!
I think it a mistake, in light of the above, to consider Adam and Eve as the final stage of humanity with the rest of us, speaking as a species, forever locked into that mold. So, regardless of mono- or poly- origins of our species, we still are all created in our essence as being in God’s image because that is how He was and, more to the point is still creating us and it really doesn’t matter too much if it was all at once or slowly over the progression of millennia.
God’s will can not be thwarted! If possessing that spark of divinity within was His intent for us, that is the end of the conversation. All that is left is speculation regarding means and methods that, if we are being honest, we may never fully know and given the chasm between the mind of God and our own limited minds, probably wouldn’t comprehend anyway.
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