adornment, veneration, to do or not to do?

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dougfreed said:
Do you adore her/them?
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OK, it dawned on me that you might mean “adoration” as in worship? If that’s the case: Definitely not.You should really clarify how you define the terms when you’re asking a question like that. As I said initially, I adore my kids, but nobody would accuse me of worshiping idols for doing so.
 
dougfreed said:
Read the begining of this post. What I put there was straight out of a Catholic Bible. In another post a senior member posted saying here is our Bible. I do agree with you Mary was a very SPECIAL part of our Christ she was **the Vessel **that brought him into this world and raised him until he left. That’s it Thank You GOD for Giving us her for Jesus to be delivered, Dear Lord thank you so much more for giving us your son so we could live.
Same with the saints God used them for his purpose on earth, thank you, we will remember what you did and hopefully learn from you but, you gone now may Dear Lord thank you for your many saints.
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Do you call your mom a vessel? Why would you use such a word for your Savior’s mom?

As far as the saints being “gone now” well, that’s debatable. They’re no longer visible, most of the time. But that doesn’t mean they’re not surrounding us in a “great cloud.” (Heb 12:1) Check out the picture on the front page of this Baptist website.
 
dougfreed said:
Hi all this came up in another thread unrelated and I don’t want anymore points but would like to know the answers to this one. so I’m starting the thread.
My first take would be no go don’t do it based on scripture this DRB, a Catholic Bible
Exodus 20
Wisdom 13
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Out of context, and at any rate…not applicable, simply because statues of the Saints and the Blessed Virgin Mary…are not false Gods, nor are they “graven images” of false Gods.
Colossians 2
17 Which are a shadow of things to come: but the body is of Christ.
**18 ** Let no man seduce you, willing in humility and religion of angels, walking in the things which he hath not seen, in vain puffed up by the sense of his flesh.
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Somewhat out of context as well, and since you have only used a “snippet” to try to make a point…its more so out of its context.

I will let the Douay-Rheims Bible footnotes explain the actual context:

From here… drbo.org/chapter/58002.htm The actual passages:

***11 In whom also you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand, in despoiling of the body of the flesh, but in the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead. 13 And you, when you were dead in your sins, and the uncircumcision of your flesh; he hath quickened together with him, forgiving you all offences: 14 Blotting out the handwriting of the decree that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he hath taken the same out of the way, fastening it to the cross: 15 And despoiling the principalities and powers, he hath exposed them confidently in open show, triumphing over them in himself.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in respect of a festival day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths, 17 Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man seduce you, willing in humility, and religion of angels, walking in the things which he hath not seen, in vain puffed up by the sense of his flesh, 19 And not holding the head, from which the whole body, by joints and bands, being supplied with nourishment and compacted, groweth unto the increase of God. 20 If then you be dead with Christ from the elements of this world, why do you yet decree as though living in the world?***

Below are the explanations… 😃 As you can see, they show you to be quite out of context…

*16 “In meat”… He means with regard to the Jewish observations of the distinction of clean and unclean meats; and of their festivals, new moons, and sabbaths, as being no longer obligatory.

18 “Willing”… That is, by a self willed, self invented, superstitious worship, falsely pretending humility, but really proceeding from pride. Such was the worship, that many of the philosophers (against whom St. Paul speaks, ver. 8) paid to angels or demons, by sacrificing to them, as carriers of intelligence betwixt God and men; pretending humility in so doing, as if God was too great to be addressed by men; and setting aside the mediatorship of Jesus Christ, who is the head both of angels and men. Such also was the worship paid by the ancient heretics, disciples of Simon and Menander, to the angels, whom they believed to be makers and lords of this lower world. This is certain, that they whom the apostle here condemns, did not hold the head, (ver. 19,) that is, Jesus Christ, and his mediatorship; and therefore what he writes here no way touches the Catholic doctrine and practice, of desiring our good angels to pray to God for us, through Jesus Christ. St. Jerome [Epist. ad Algas.] understands by the religion or service of angels, the Jewish teachers, who sought to subject the new Christians to the observance of the Mosaic law. *
This last one is hard to understand you can go to Biblegateway.com and read it in many other versions
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Actually, its not in the least difficult to understand…when its in its proper context. You really need to stop “snipping” one liners and two liners…and trying to sell the partial goods as something they are not. I have absolutely ZERO reason to go to a non-Catholic site for any information…especially interpretations of the Bible.😃

Doug…my friend, you are embarking down the same path that many others have gone down…only to fail to reach the end of the path with any success. You do not understand the Catholic view of Mary or the Saints. Its obvious to even you that we believe differently. Absolutely nothing you can say or do will change our beliefs or ways. You would have more success stopping the wind from blowing or preventing waves on the seas. Save yourself much angst and stop trying to prove what cannot be proven to your satisfaction. If you choose to believe “differently”, that is your right. God gave you both Free Will and the ability to exercise it.

Peace.
 
Doesn’t adornment mean to decorate? I know that I have seen the children at the Catholic school put a crown of flowers on a statue of Mary. Is this what you are talking about, dougfreed?

Maybe someone can explain to us what Hyperdulia means. TIA!

God Bless!
 
Church Militant
This Definition of venerate in this post by one of you. Can you show me in your bible of 73 books or mine of 66 books that says you should show any reverence, adornment, prayer or that they hold any power to deliver? The points I share are from scripture even from your 73. When we were married in the Catholic Church my wife had to bow to Mary so we could have a blessed marriage this was per the priest.
Church_Militant said:
[SIGN1]No![/SIGN1]I defy you to provide any authentic and authoritative Catholic teaching that says we do or should.

If you cannot provide it then you need to drop your opposition and deal with things that Catholics really do believe.
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dougfreed said:
Church Militant
This Definition of venerate in this post by one of you. Can you show me in your bible of 73 books or mine of 66 books that says you should show any reverence, adornment, prayer or that they hold any power to deliver? The points I share are from scripture even from your 73. When we were married in the Catholic Church my wife had to bow to Mary so we could have a blessed marriage this was per the priest.
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That probably would have been me… 😃 And if you will go to that link and read the definition as it appears…there is no “worship” involved. You are attempting to “stretch” meanings to fit your agenda. You get an “F” on the try.

As to whether or not anyone, a Saint in Heaven, the Blessed Virgin Mary, or an Angel who is prayed to and asked to intercede on our behalf, can do so has been explained here ad infinitim and I as well posted a number of links for someone else and it regarded this entire issue and it contained a number of biblical justifications and references…as well as writings by Jerome and others. You can say you were told to do anything under the sun, but that doesn’t make it so. That’s something I have NEVER heard of, and in my 58 years as a Catholic I have been to a number of Catholic weddings…and never once. Nice try, but still an “F”.
 
RobHom,

You have never seen flowers presented during a Catholic wedding to a small side alter to Mary with the bride and groom kneeling to say a prayer? I don’t think that I have ever been to a Catholic wedding where this was not done after the vows have been said.

God Bless!
 
dougfreed said:
Hi all this came up in another thread unrelated and I don’t want anymore points but would like to know the answers to this one. so I’m starting the thread.
My first take would be no go don’t do it based on scripture this DRB, a Catholic Bible
Exodus 20
1 And the Lord spoke all these words:
2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Wisdom 13
1 But all men are vain, in whom there is not the knowledge of God: and who by these good things that are seen, could not understand him that is, neither by attending to the works have acknowledged who was the workman:
2 But have imagined either the fire, or the wind, or the swift air, or the circle of the stars, or the great water, or the sun and moon, to be the gods that rule the world.
3 With whose beauty, if they, being delighted, took them to be gods: let them know how much the Lord of them is more beautiful than they: for the first author of beauty made all those things.
4 Or if they admired their power, and their effects, let them understand by them, that he that made them, is mightier than they:
5 For by the greatness of the beauty, and of the creature, the creator of them may be seen, so as to be known thereby.
6 But yet as to these they are less to be blamed. For they perhaps err, seeking God, and desirous to find him.
7 For being conversant among his works, they search: and they are persuaded that the things are good which are seen.
**8 **But then again they are not to be pardoned.
9 For if they were able to know so much as to make a judgment of the world: how did they not more easily find out the Lord thereof?
**10 **But unhappy are they, and their hope is among the dead, who have called gods the works of the hand of men, gold and silver, the inventions of art, and the resemblances of beasts, or an unprofitable stone the work of an ancient hand.
11 Or if an artist, a carpenter, hath cut down a tree proper for his use in the wood, and skilfully taken off all the bark thereof, and with his art, diligently formeth a vessel profitable for the common uses of life,
12 And useth the chips of his work to dress his meat:
13 And taking what was left thereof, which is good for nothing, being a crooked piece of wood, and full of knots, carveth it diligently when he hath nothing else to do, and by the skill of his art fashioneth it, and maketh it like the image of a man:
14 Or the resemblance of some beast, laying it over with vermilion, and painting it red, and covering every spot that is in it:
**15 **And maketh a convenient dwelling place for it, and setting it in a wall, and fastening it with iron,
16 Providing for it, lest it should fall, knowing that it is unable to help itself: for it is an image, and hath need of help.
17 And then maketh prayer to it, enquiring concerning his substance, and his children, or his marriage. And he is not ashamed to speak to that which hath no life:
18 And for health he maketh supplication to the weak, and for life prayeth to that which is dead, and for help calleth upon that which is unprofitable:
19 And for a good journey he petitioneth him that cannot walk: and for getting, and for working, and for the event of all things he asketh him that is unable to do any thing.
Those were just a couple references in OT
Below is NT references______________________
Matthew 4:9
9 And said to him: All these will I give thee, if falling down thou wilt adore me.
**10 ** Then Jesus saith to him: Begone, Satan: for it is written: The Lord thy God shalt thou adore, and him only shalt thou serve.
Luke 4
5 And the devil led him into a high mountain and shewed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
**6 ** And he said to him: To thee will I give all this power and the glory of them. For to me they are delivered: and to whom I will, I give them.
**7 ** If thou therefore wilt adore before me, all shall be thine.
**8 ** And Jesus answering said to him. It is written: Thou shalt adore the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Colossians 2
17 Which are a shadow of things to come: but the body is of Christ.
**18 ** Let no man seduce you, willing in humility and religion of angels, walking in the things which he hath not seen, in vain puffed up by the sense of his flesh.
__
This last one is hard to understand you can go to Biblegateway.com and read it in many other versions
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I choose not to venerate or adore Mary simply because the time I would spend doing that would be time not worshipping God. I in turn ask Mary and the saints to pray with me in worship to God.
 
emeraldcoast said:
RobHom,

You have never seen flowers presented during a Catholic wedding to a small side alter to Mary with the bride and groom kneeling to say a prayer? I don’t think that I have ever been to a Catholic wedding where this was not done after the vows have been said.
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Honestly, no… I have not. I have only attended 4 different parish church’s here in FL… and none of them have had side altars. There have been statues of Mary in all of them, as is normal, but no altars to her. Thus I have seen nothing like that. However, I will day this… were it my wedding, I would have no problem asking the Blessed Virgin Mary to help me to be a good husband to my wife! In fact I have often asked for Mary’s intercession. I have received it. 🙂
God Bless!
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You too my friend!!
 
I started thinking maybe I was hallucinating my wedding day. Thanks.👍
emeraldcoast said:
RobHom,

You have never seen flowers presented during a Catholic wedding to a small side alter to Mary with the bride and groom kneeling to say a prayer? I don’t think that I have ever been to a Catholic wedding where this was not done after the vows have been said.

God Bless!
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dougfreed said:
Church Militant
This Definition of venerate
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in this post by one of you.So? As the dictionary points out, there are many meanings and aspects to veneration. Not all of them involve any form of adoration. I suggest that you accept the meanings in which the Catholic Church uses them.
Can you show me in your bible of 73 books or mine of 66 books that says you should show any reverence, adornment, prayer or that they hold any power to deliver?
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Christians have believed in the intercession of saints from the earliest times of the church. This belief is expressed in art and writings from the first 3 centuries of Christian history.

Where does it state anywhere in the Bible that Christians cease to be able to intercede for each other after they enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

No…in fact in Romans 8 St. Paul says, “37 But in all these things we overcome, because of him that hath loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Now if we are not separated from that “great cloud of witnesses” in Hebrews 11 and 12:1, then how is it that you can assert that they are unaware of and unable to intercede for us before God?

Case in point: Regardless of how unCatholic most believers are, when they visit the grave of any faithful departed loved one, they speak to them. So…why is that if they do not believe that those depart can both hear and help them with their intercessions. I will wager that you yourself do so as well.
When we were married in the Catholic Church my wife had to bow to Mary so we could have a blessed marriage this was per the priest.
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🤷 An unverifiable personal allegation that, (if true), could have been anything from a personal error on the part of the priest to a gross misunderstanding on the part of you and your wife.

Regardless, it does not reflect on or affect in any way the authentic teachings of the Catholic Church.
 
RobHom said:
Sir, VERY GOOD blog. It would probably increase the “learning curve” of non-Catholics if they would take the time to visit your blog and read it!!
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God grant the graces that it may be so. :signofcross: All glory and honor and power are yours almighty Father. Forever and ever!
 
I found this…

Bouquet for the Blessed Virgin Mary
The presentation of a special bouquet of flowers at the foot of the statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary is an established Catholic tradition. The flowers are presented to the statue as an offering of love for the Mother of God. A shortened version of the Ave Maria is often played or sung at this time. During the presentation, the bride and groom ask Mary in prayer to pray for their marriage, and that their children lead holy and happy lives, as well as any other special intentions.

Flowers are often presented to Mary even at wedding ceremonies where both parties are not Catholic, and although it is not a requirement, all couples are strongly encouraged to continue this beautiful practice. Be sure your florist understands that a separate bouquet needs to be prepared for the presentation to Mary.

stmarysbythesea.net/mycustompage0003.htm
 
emeraldcoast said:
I found this…

Bouquet for the Blessed Virgin Mary
The presentation of a special bouquet of flowers at the foot of the statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary is an established Catholic tradition. The flowers are presented to the statue as an offering of love for the Mother of God. A shortened version of the Ave Maria is often played or sung at this time. During the presentation, the bride and groom ask Mary in prayer to pray for their marriage, and that their children lead holy and happy lives, as well as any other special intentions.
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Readers, please note the non-capitalized t.
Flowers are often presented to Mary even at wedding ceremonies where both parties are not Catholic, and although it is not a requirement, all couples are strongly encouraged to continue this beautiful practice. Be sure your florist understands that a separate bouquet needs to be prepared for the presentation to Mary.
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stmarysbythesea.net/mycustompage0003.htm
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If you don’t wanna give Mary flowers at your wedding, you don’t have to. I just attended a Catholic wedding last month and they did not.
 
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