adornment, veneration, to do or not to do?

[Thing]

Who commanded the Jews to build the temple and the ark? God did. However, in fact He did command His people not to ever make any image of the heavenly on their own. This is what is forbidden. The temple and the ark and its construction were commanded by God while men are not to make their own “heavenly images”.

He commanded you not to make images of any thing on the earth.

But you go and make photographic images of things on the earth.

Am I missing something in your reasoning?
Am I correct in saying you break the commandment, judging it by your standard?

 

[justasking4]

He commanded you not to make images of any thing on the earth.

But you go and make photographic images of things on the earth.

Am I missing something in your reasoning?
Am I correct in saying you break the commandment, judging it by your standard?

What you are missing is the context. The context has to do with using images in worship.

 

[Thing]

What you are missing is the context. The context has to do with using images in worship.

So images of things in heaven are fine?

 

[justasking4]

So images of things in heaven are fine?

What “things” in heaven are you referring to?

 

[cfrancis]

Who commanded the Jews to build the temple and the ark? God did. However, in fact He did command His people not to ever make any image of the heavenly on their own. This is what is forbidden. The temple and the ark and its construction were commanded by God while men are not to make their own “heavenly images”.

Yes, God commanded the building of the Ark and the cherubim that adorn it; yes, God commanded the casting of the Bronze Serpent.

And both these cases support the Catholic argument: images are fine, worshipping images are not - otherwise, God contradicts His own commandment.

As for the Temple, would you please direct me to where God told Solomon to cast bronze oxen? Or, for that matter, where God spelled out what statues to cast for the Temple, as He did for the Ark and the Bronze Serpent?

 

[Thing]

You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Heaven = Sky = Birds, Bats, Flying Insects etc.

Earth = Earth = Animals, Plants, Material Objects

Water = Water = Fishes, Marine Mammals and so on…

= Don’t Make Idols Of This Stuff, OK. - God.

Idol = ‘False god’ who is given the ‘Worship due to God alone’.

An image used as an object of worship.
A false god.
One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
Something visible but without substance.
[Middle English, from Old French idole, from Late Latin īdōlum, from Greek eidōlon, phantom, idol, from eidos, form.]

A person who claims to be a believer in the Christian God gives that God the ‘Worship which is due to God alone’.

The same person thanks God for His fish and His birds and His animals.

He may even take a photo of a rhinoceros and shout and get down on his knees and shout again, thank you God for this rhinoceros of yours.

And God would be very pleased with that. Everything He made was good.

The same person may get down on his knees in front of a statue of Mary or a statue of God Himself and shout thank you God for this wonderful person whom you made in life and thank you for you.

The same person while they are still kneeling may shout, Mary thank God for making you and for me and for God. God help me.

All praise and thanks and worship are directed towards God for the wonderful things He has made, and because some of the things He has made are also people who are alive and walking and talking in heaven, the same person can tell those people in heaven how wonderful God is and can tell them to tell God how wonderful He is for everything He has done. OK.

If you want to be really stupid you can rub a stone and tell it that its wonderful and everything, and that you want the stone to make you win the lotto and to smite all your enemies, but you would be very stupid to do that and you would not be a Christian either. You would be an Idol worshipper.

But Catholics are not stupid, thanks be to God, and you are not stupid either, dear reader, and we know you know we know the difference.

Ciao

 

[Highwayhound]

It seems to me that a lot of the posts from non-Catholics would be worthy of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Many were the times they came to my Lord and savior in attempts to trip him up with their words i.e. paying taxes, should the adulteress be stoned to death, and my favorite: “By what authority are you doing these things?”

In each case Jesus was more than up to the challenges.

I am the first to admit I enjoy words and how words are used. I enjoy writing very much. I sense that often (and I could be wrong) many posts are prideful. The attempt to show how clever one is in the use of words, be they verbs or prepositions. I have read many threads which debate the meaning of worship.

Imagine, if you will, where we would be if the blessed Virgin had said “No thanks Gabriel, you see Joseph and I are getting married real soon and I do not have time to bear God’s son for Him. So, thanks for thinking of me, but I have other business.”

Then where would we be? No messiah, no eternal salvation let alone worries about “worship”. She did, as one of God’s creatures, have free will.

Her choice at that moment of decision was AWESOME! Would I be able to make such a decision to humbly serve God? Makes me nervous to think about it.

When I kneel before a statue or painting of the blessed virgin Mary I am reminded of her and that comforts me and thus my worship and prayers to God are more thoughtful.

So I ask what is your purpose when you ask these questions about worship, adoration or veneration of statues and images? Is your concern for my soul and my fellow Catholic’s souls? IF the answer is ‘yes’ then I am heartened by knowing I have so many people concerned for me and I presume praying for me? If the answer is other than yes, then I will pray for you.

May God bless you all

(p.s. I like crucifixes too - reminds me of another great decision)

 

[Church_Militant]

Lets see if catholics do indeed adore them or worship. The next verse in Exodus 20 is verse 5 which says–you shall not bow down before them or worship them

. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation;

Now we do know there are statues in Catholic churches with kneelers before these images and candles burning in many cases. This certainly is a sign of worship. Secondly there are many hymns and prayers to Mary that certainly exalt her and say things about her that should be said only about God. For example this prayer called The Litany to Mary is something that needs to be looked at carefully.

LITANY OF MARY

…

There is no doubt this is a prayer of adoration to a created being. More anti-Catholic wishful thinking not based on Catholic doctrine, not to mention a specious misrepresentation of the prayer in question.

Would you consider devote Jews who do not have images in there homes of any kind of deities Taliban?

Okay…so the temple of Solomon and all its images was not built by devout Jews and (in spite of scripture to the contrary) God did not approve?

 

[Zooey]

Your logic being, then: that in front of which you kneel is that which you are worshipping.

Which raises the question: where can you kneel that you are not in front of something?

Thank you!!
Otherwise, I grew up surrounded by a bunch of heathens in the Free Methodist Church–they worshipped their pews every Wednesday from 7.30 to 9 PM…according to our latest guest.

More anti-Catholic wishful thinking not based on Catholic doctrine, not to mention a specious misrepresentation of the prayer in question.

Yes, I noticed that, right away, too, Michael!!!
I have a whole book full of litanies and that “prayer” bears** no resemblance to any of them**, beyond using the literary form to concoct something to complain about!!

 

[fbl9]

LITANY OF MARY

Lord, Father of the Mother, hear usGod the Father
Lord, Spouse of the Virgin, hear usthe Holy Spirit which overshadowed Mary
Lord, Child of the Daughter, hear usJesus Christ
Lord, all in all to Our Lady, hear usMary’s love for God
Mother of divine mercy,Jesus
Carrier of the Word,
show us your Sonlead us to Jesus
and hear our plea
Delight of the Trinity, pray for usrequest for prayer
Immaculate creation of the Lord, pray for usthe Lord created her without original sin
Above all the angels, pray for uswhich we are after being justified by Christ
Child of the eternal Father, pray for usanother request for prayer
Handmaiden of the Most high, pray for us
Vessel of innocence, pray for us
Eager anticipation of rebirth, pray for us
Bearer of good fruit, pray for us
Birthplace of God, pray for us
New mother of mankind, pray for us
First temple of the Church, pray for us
Guardian of truth, pray for us
Spouse of love, pray for us
Faithful wife of paternal protection, pray for us
Heart of a holy family, pray for us
Leaven of heavenly food, pray for us
Conduit of pure grace, pray for usfrom whom the Christ child was born
Practice of virtue, pray for us
Finder of the missing, pray for us
Consoler of the wounded, pray for us
Instigator of miracles, pray for us
Companion in the way of Calvary, pray for us
Mourner in the cross, pray for us
Caretaker of the Body of Christ, pray for us
Hope in the resurrection, pray for us
Reunion in the Lord, pray for us
Perfection of the Holy Spirit, pray for us
Queen of the throne of creation, pray for us
Mantle of all the saints, pray for us
Sure guide in the heart of the Lord, pray for us
Cause of our joy, pray for us

There is no doubt this is a prayer of adoration to a created being.
and there is no doubt that you are suffering from a loss of blood and few concussions from banging your head against a brickwall

Would you consider devote Jews who do not have images in there homes of any kind of deities Taliban?

 

[Zooey]

I believe the Japaneese Gesha kneel to make tea.

:coffeeread:

Yeah. Really.
I mean, I kneel almost every day at this time of year, to clean up the mess when my cat pukes up a hairball.
Anything less indicative of "worship’’ can scarce be imagined. Mostly, its just this old lady, hoping she can get back up again on my own, without phoning out for a helping hand.

 

[guanophore]

Who commanded the Jews to build the temple and the ark? God did. However, in fact He did command His people not to ever make any image of the heavenly on their own. This is what is forbidden. The temple and the ark and its construction were commanded by God while men are not to make their own “heavenly images”.

Now you are editing the commandment, so you can squeeze your errant theology from it. The commandment is not limited to heavenly beings.

Ex 20:4-6

4 "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

The images that God later ordered to be placed on the Ark, in the Temple, and to heal the people were not created as objects of worship.

If you are honest with yourself, you will realize that this commandment is not talking about making any images, just images for the purpose of worship.

Are rocks and trees considered images of the heavenly in the Scriptures?

C’mon, ja4. Don’t let that anti-Catholic bigotry prevent you from being honest with yourself!

8 “'You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 9 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God…” Deut 5:8-9

The making of images is not restricted to heavenly beings. Rocks and trees are things that are on earth, and making images of them for worship, or bowing down to adore them is idolatry.

So, back to the previous question…was Jesus worshipping a rock or a tree when He knelt in the garden to pray?

 

[guanophore]

What you are missing is the context. The context has to do with using images in worship.

No, the context has to do with using images FOR worship. If images were not to be used, God would not have allowed them on the Ark or in the Temple, and He would not have used one to heal them from snake bites.

 

[cfrancis]

It appears when faced with the whole of Scripture:

• the commandment tells us not to create any graven images of things on earth and in heaven
• the Jews decorated the Temple with graven images without direction from God

and ja4’s own words:

The context has to do with using images in worship.

ja4 recognizes Catholics do not worship images.

At least I hope ja4’s silence indicates this.

 

[justasking4]

Church Militant;4235334]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Lets see if catholics do indeed adore them or worship. The next verse in Exodus 20 is verse 5 which says–you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation;

Now we do know there are statues in Catholic churches with kneelers before these images and candles burning in many cases. This certainly is a sign of worship. Secondly there are many hymns and prayers to Mary that certainly exalt her and say things about her that should be said only about God. For example this prayer called The Litany to Mary is something that needs to be looked at carefully.

LITANY OF MARY
Here is the prayer again so we can study it:
LITANY OF MARY
Lord, Father of the Mother, hear us
Lord, Spouse of the Virgin, hear us
Lord, Child of the Daughter, hear us
Lord, all in all to Our Lady, hear us
Mother of divine mercy,
Carrier of the Word,
show us your Son
and hear our plea
Delight of the Trinity, pray for us
Immaculate creation of the Lord, pray for us
Above all the angels, pray for us
Child of the eternal Father, pray for us
Handmaiden of the Most high, pray for us
Vessel of innocence, pray for us
Eager anticipation of rebirth, pray for us
Bearer of good fruit, pray for us
Birthplace of God, pray for us
New mother of mankind, pray for us
First temple of the Church, pray for us
Guardian of truth, pray for us
Spouse of love, pray for us
Faithful wife of paternal protection, pray for us
Heart of a holy family, pray for us
Leaven of heavenly food, pray for us
Conduit of pure grace, pray for us
Practice of virtue, pray for us
Finder of the missing, pray for us
Consoler of the wounded, pray for us
Instigator of miracles, pray for us
Companion in the way of Calvary, pray for us
Mourner in the cross, pray for us
Caretaker of the Body of Christ, pray for us
Hope in the resurrection, pray for us
Reunion in the Lord, pray for us
Perfection of the Holy Spirit, pray for us
Queen of the throne of creation, pray for us
Mantle of all the saints, pray for us
Sure guide in the heart of the Lord, pray for us
Cause of our joy, pray for us

There is no doubt this is a prayer of adoration to a created being.

Church Militant
More anti-Catholic wishful thinking not based on Catholic doctrine,

How is my question “anti-Catholic wishful thinking” when it is true that Mary was and is a created being?
Secondly, how is this prayer not to be taken as adoration to Mary?

not to mention a specious misrepresentation of the prayer in question.

How so? Look at some of the statements made in regards to Mary:
Mother of divine mercy
Delight of the Trinity
Immaculate creation of the Lord,
Above all the angels
Conduit of pure grace
Hope in the resurrection
Perfection of the Holy Spirit
Queen of the throne of creation
Mantle of all the saints
Sure guide in the heart of the Lord
Cause of our joy

Can you tell me where in Scripture she is ever spoken of like this?

These are the kinds of things that should only be said of Christ and not a created being.

If anyone is being specious its the church in allowing this kind of prayer to be promoted.

Quote:justasking4
Would you consider devote Jews who do not have images in there homes of any kind of deities Taliban?

Church Militant
Okay…so the temple of Solomon and all its images was not built by devout Jews and (in spite of scripture to the contrary) God did not approve?

The temple was built by the Jews. However, we have no reason to think that they had any heavenly images of angels or God in their synagogues or homes.

 

[cfrancis]

The temple was built by the Jews. However, we have no reason to think that they had any heavenly images of angels or God in their synagogues or homes.

Please, be intellectually honest in this discussion.
The commandment is:
Ex 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what **is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. **

Either this prohibits any carving, statue or representation of anything in heaven, on earth or under the see - as you seem to suggest - or it means we are not worship such items.

The Jews, as has been shown, had statues and carvings of such things in the Temple, with no direction from God to do so.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4237103]Now you are editing the commandment, so you can squeeze your errant theology from it.

View attachment 4200

The commandment is not limited to heavenly beings.

Ex 20:4-6

4 "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

The images that God later ordered to be placed on the Ark, in the Temple, and to heal the people were not created as objects of worship.

If you are honest with yourself, you will realize that this commandment is not talking about making any images, just images for the purpose of worship.

i agree. Its the images that are of heavenly things that are forbidden and that’s where you have a problem. Mary is considered to be in heaven and you have images of her in your churches and yards.

C’mon, ja4. Don’t let that anti-Catholic bigotry prevent you from being honest with yourself!

i think the honesty has to do with you in your understanding the implications of the commandment that forbids images of the heavenly.

8 “'You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 9 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God…” Deut 5:8-9

The making of images is not restricted to heavenly beings. Rocks and trees are things that are on earth, and making images of them for worship, or bowing down to adore them is idolatry.

True.

So, back to the previous question…was Jesus worshipping a rock or a tree when He knelt in the garden to pray?

No. As far as i know these objects were not considered images of
any likeness of anything that is in heaven above.

 

[cfrancis]

How do you go from Ex 20:4
"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth
to your statement

View attachment 4200
i agree. Its the images that are of heavenly things that are forbidden and that’s where you have a problem. Mary is considered to be in heaven and you have images of her in your churches and yards.

???

 

[Thing]

Maybe I should edit the commandment too;

Second Commandment: You shall not bow down to Them or serve Them;

…but maybe I’m just being paranoid.

“…or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above…”

Heaven, in case anyone does not realize, is the firmament, the sky or dome in which the lights are fixed to, birds fly in the sky under the firmament.

1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth.

2 Genesis 1

8 And **God called the **firmament, Heaven; and the evening and morning were the second day.

3 Genesis 1

9 God also said: Let the waters that are under the heaven, be gathered together into one place: and let the dry land appear. And it was so done.

4 Genesis 1

14 And God said: Let there be lights made in the firmament of heaven, to divide the day and the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:

5 Genesis 1

15 To shine in the firmament of heaven, and to give light upon the earth. And it was so done.

6 Genesis 1

17 And he set them in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth.

7 Genesis 1

20 God also said: Let the waters bring forth the creeping creature having life, and the fowl that may fly over the earth under the firmament of heaven.

 

[cfrancis]

Have we settled ths fact the commandment applies to all things in heaven, on earth, and under the sea, not just things in heaven?