Advice to homilists: Please get to the point in six or eight minutes

[wynnejj]

Quite often, likely more often than not, the serious family discussion is based on one person’s interpretation of Divine realities. Keep that in mind.

Most definitely, I will keep in mind. I will add it to my ELIZA computer therapist program for CAF audiences at the first chance I get.

 

[jasonjessica09]

There is no way people can be evangilized in 6, 8, or 10 minutes at Mass. Where else do people recieve the word of God anymore. Certainly not the mainstream media or at work. For bishops and preists to say to that homilies should be kept under 10 minutes is CRAZY!!! We go to Mass to present ourselves to receive God’s mercy. Mass should never changed for the sake of making it convienient to the people. Talk like this makes me realize no wonder why the Catholic Church in Western Society is losing more faithful people.

I.

 

[irishpatrick]

There is no way people can be evangilized in 6, 8, or 10 minutes at Mass. Where else do people recieve the word of God anymore. Certainly not the mainstream media or at work. For bishops and preists to say to that homilies should be kept under 10 minutes is CRAZY!!! We go to Mass to present ourselves to receive God’s mercy. Mass should never changed for the sake of making it convienient to the people. Talk like this makes me realize no wonder why the Catholic Church in Western Society is losing more faithful people.

I.

In the past the faith in the west was incredibly strong, and that was during the days of the Latin Mass and short to non-existent homilies. There was also a strong culture of going to Confession and to lengthy pre-Mass fasts and more Holy Days of obligation, etc.

Today, imo, too many parishes want to be like Protestant Churches. Most Protestant Churches have one major thing: the Bible (and not even the full Bible)–they do not have confession, or Holy Orders, or the Eucharist, or the annointing of the sick, or Communion with the Saints, or a Pope, or a history that goes back to Christ, or the full Bible, etc…and on-and-on.

 

[James924]

In the past the faith in the west was incredibly strong, and that was during the days of the Latin Mass and short to non-existent homilies. There was also a strong culture of going to Confession and to lengthy pre-Mass fasts and more Holy Days of obligation, etc.

Today, imo, too many parishes want to be like Protestant Churches. Most Protestant Churches have one major thing: the Bible (and not even the full Bible)–they do not have confession, or Holy Orders, or the Eucharist, or the annointing of the sick, or Communion with the Saints, or a Pope, or a history that goes back to Christ, or the full Bible, etc…and on-and-on.

I agree with your post, but I was confused by one thing. The point about the pre-concilar period having short to non-existent homilies. I was not aware this was the case. Our FSSP (TLM) priests give long and fruitful homilies on the faith and virtues and draw extensively from the writings of the saints (esp Aquinas and Alphonsus since thats part of FSSP seminary formation) and even on weekday masses sometimes (like this morning I sat through a long one about St Eudes and the Sacred Heart and Immaculate Heart.)

I sort of just assumed that if the FSSP priests are doing it, then they probably did it in the past. Also, what about the many writings of priests and saints from the old days that are actually compilations of homilies? Was it really that rare to hear long homilies in the pre-conciliar age? Or were you just talking about weekdays or something?

But anyway, I agree with your post as a whole and think we should judge a tree by its fruits and do what was working before. Though I’m wondering when the infamous NO apologist, lurking in the shadows, is going to pounce on us with the usual “Post hoc ergo propter hoc” zinger. …Probably any minute now … everyone duck!

 

[wynnejj]

In the past the faith in the west was incredibly strong, and that was during the days of the Latin Mass and short to non-existent homilies. There was also a strong culture of going to Confession and to lengthy pre-Mass fasts and more Holy Days of obligation, etc.

True. They were days when Christianity reigned in American society, and Christian social principles between denominations largely agreed. Then the Lambeth Conference that opened dialog to legitimize the practice of contraception within Christian marriage. Prior to that the divorce rate was about 25% and TV "Two Guys & Baby’ would be sick humour. It is high time that we go back to black & white and put a black hat on contraception & cohabitation. Teenagers need to hear this. They need to hear it proclaimed loudly from the pulpit. Else, there is good reason to question the authority of moral leaders who are not moral leaders.

 

[James924]

True. They were days when Christianity reigned in American society, and Christian social principles between denominations largely agreed. Then the Lambeth Conference that opened dialog to legitimize the practice of contraception within Christian marriage. Prior to that the divorce rate was about 25% and TV "Two Guys & Baby’ would be sick humour. It is high time that we go back to black & white and put a black hat on contraception & cohabitation. Teenagers need to hear this. They need to hear it proclaimed loudly from the pulpit. Else, there is good reason to question the authority of moral leaders who are not moral leaders.

Preach it!

 

[irishpatrick]

I agree with your post, but I was confused by one thing. The point about the pre-concilar period having short to non-existent homilies. I was not aware this was the case. Our FSSP (TLM) priests give long and fruitful homilies on the faith and virtues and draw extensively from the writings of the saints (esp Aquinas and Alphonsus since thats part of FSSP seminary formation) and even on weekday masses sometimes (like this morning I sat through a long one about St Eudes and the Sacred Heart and Immaculate Heart.)

I sort of just assumed that if the FSSP priests are doing it, then they probably did it in the past. Also, what about the many writings of priests and saints from the old days that are actually compilations of homilies? Was it really that rare to hear long homilies in the pre-conciliar age? Or were you just talking about weekdays or something?

But anyway, I agree with your post as a whole and think we should judge a tree by its fruits and do what was working before. Though I’m wondering when the infamous NO apologist, lurking in the shadows, is going to pounce on us with the usual “Post hoc ergo propter hoc” zinger. …Probably any minute now … everyone duck!

There were, of course, times when Priests gave lengthy homilies, but in general they were either short, or not done at all.

The problem I have is that (imo) too many Catholic parishes feel a need to be like Protestant Churches by having long homilies. They do that because they hear from fallen away Catholics that they received “so much more” in their Protestant Church of choice. Yet, that just speaks of the poor catechesis of those Catholics.

Also, when the TLM Mass is said, the Priests know that the Catholics in attedance are there for the long haul–while most Catholics simply do not want hear long homilies, nor is it all needed. The truth is, homilies cannot fill gaps in formation. that has to be done outside Mass.

A lot of those older Saints, etc., with long homilies, were not necessarily done during a Mass. It is always productive–and should be done more–to offer Catholics means to grow in their faith outside Mass…but the Mass is all about Christ and His Sacrifice. It is NOT about what we get from the Mass, rather how much do we put into the Mass in terms of entering into the reality of what Jesus did for us?

 

[irishpatrick]

True. They were days when Christianity reigned in American society, and Christian social principles between denominations largely agreed. Then the Lambeth Conference that opened dialog to legitimize the practice of contraception within Christian marriage. Prior to that the divorce rate was about 25% and TV "Two Guys & Baby’ would be sick humour. It is high time that we go back to black & white and put a black hat on contraception & cohabitation. Teenagers need to hear this. They need to hear it proclaimed loudly from the pulpit. Else, there is good reason to question the authority of moral leaders who are not moral leaders.

In 1900 (USA)…according to statistics gathered by the US Census Bureau, the rate of divorce for males was 84 per 100,000 and 114 per 100,000 for women.

 

[Tighty_Whitey]

I am sort of surprised by the tenor of many of the posts that are along the lines of: At best the homily might not be horrible; or at best the homily won’t distract me from the really good parts of the Mass; or who cares about the homily as long as I can keep my focus. In short, these sentiments reflect that the homily is an obsticle that needs to be overcome.

The fact of the matter is that the homily is probably 25% of the entire service. At least that has been my experience that homilys are 15 minutes. I believe that the quality of homilys has improved in the past 10-15 years. I also believe that it has a long way to go!

I am astonished at how poorly priests are prepared to use this time. Just how rare is it that anyone sits and listens, without significant distration to a single person speak for 15 uninterupted minutes? I don’t believe that there is another occassion that I have during the week that this occurs. I am usually reaching for my smartphone or otherwise distracted.

I think that we all need lots of prayers for our priests, their’s is a very challenging path.

 

[irishpatrick]

I am sort of surprised by the tenor of many of the posts that are along the lines of: At best the homily might not be horrible; or at best the homily won’t distract me from the really good parts of the Mass; or who cares about the homily as long as I can keep my focus. In short, these sentiments reflect that the homily is an obsticle that needs to be overcome.

The fact of the matter is that the homily is probably 25% of the entire service. At least that has been my experience that homilys are 15 minutes. I believe that the quality of homilys has improved in the past 10-15 years. I also believe that it has a long way to go!

I am astonished at how poorly priests are prepared to use this time. Just how rare is it that anyone sits and listens, without significant distration to a single person speak for 15 uninterupted minutes? I don’t believe that there is another occassion that I have during the week that this occurs. I am usually reaching for my smartphone or otherwise distracted.

I think that we all need lots of prayers for our priests, their’s is a very challenging path.

Not to be too nitpicky (but I will anyway), it is NOT a service, it is a Mass. And, it is known as the sacrifice of the Mass because we have the blessing of entering into the once-for-all Sacrifice that Christ made for us 2,000 years ago.

The readings are very important, and that part of the Mass even has its own name: The Liturgy of the Word. Homilies are important, but they are FAR from critical. Grace does not flow to us from a homily (whether it is good or bad), yet a lot of Grace flows to us when we receive the Lord in Communion. Jesus thought enough of it to say that we have no life in us if we do not partake.

The Mass is NOT about us–it is not about what WE can take from the Mass. Rather, the Mass is about Jesus Christ, and it is about what we give to Jesus during the Mass.

A twenty minute daily Mass contains every bit as much Grace as does a 90 minute Sunday Mass. Catholics in the past knew that, today they seem to have forgotten it for many reasons.

It should be a matter of, “how much of our heart our we going to give to Jesus during Mass,” not “how much will Jesus give me, or how much will a homily feed me or make me feel wonderful about myself.”

 

[James924]

There were, of course, times when Priests gave lengthy homilies, but in general they were either short, or not done at all.

The problem I have is that (imo) too many Catholic parishes feel a need to be like Protestant Churches by having long homilies. They do that because they hear from fallen away Catholics that they received “so much more” in their Protestant Church of choice. Yet, that just speaks of the poor catechesis of those Catholics.

Also, when the TLM Mass is said, the Priests know that the Catholics in attedance are there for the long haul–while most Catholics simply do not want hear long homilies, nor is it all needed. The truth is, homilies cannot fill gaps in formation. that has to be done outside Mass.

A lot of those older Saints, etc., with long homilies, were not necessarily done during a Mass. It is always productive–and should be done more–to offer Catholics means to grow in their faith outside Mass…but the Mass is all about Christ and His Sacrifice. It is NOT about what we get from the Mass, rather how much do we put into the Mass in terms of entering into the reality of what Jesus did for us?

Not to be too nitpicky (but I will anyway), it is NOT a service, it is a Mass. And, it is known as the sacrifice of the Mass because we have the blessing of entering into the once-for-all Sacrifice that Christ made for us 2,000 years ago.

The readings are very important, and that part of the Mass even has its own name: The Liturgy of the Word. Homilies are important, but they are FAR from critical. Grace does not flow to us from a homily (whether it is good or bad), yet a lot of Grace flows to us when we receive the Lord in Communion. Jesus thought enough of it to say that we have no life in us if we do not partake.

The Mass is NOT about us–it is not about what WE can take from the Mass. Rather, the Mass is about Jesus Christ, and it is about what we give to Jesus during the Mass.

A twenty minute daily Mass contains every bit as much Grace as does a 90 minute Sunday Mass. Catholics in the past knew that, today they seem to have forgotten it for many reasons.

It should be a matter of, “how much of our heart our we going to give to Jesus during Mass,” not “how much will Jesus give me, or how much will a homily feed me or make me feel wonderful about myself.”

I hate to disagree with anything you’ve said because I think you and I are on the same side of the fence today, but I don’t think homilies necessarily need to be lumped into the protestantization or anthropocentralization categories, which may not have been what you were arguing, but it seemed that you were.

I agree that we have protestantized the mass, particularly with this idea that there wasn’t enough scripture to begin with so now we need a huge 3 year cycle with 3 readings on sundays which, judging a tree by its fruits, has corresponded with a total lack of interest in scripture among most catholics today. I also think that it is further protestantized and anthropocentralized by having the priest face inwards on the people (like protestants were doing at the time) instead of forward with us at God and communion standing and in the hand (like protestants were doing) and treating hymns and choirs like they are entertainment for the people (like protestants were doing) and all the other changes that made the mass man-centered (anthropocentric) more than God centered (Theocentric). I just don’t think that a robust homily really fits in there with those things.

Also, certainly formation ought to be happening outside of mass, but in an era in which people, old and young, are not being formed in the home, not at all, most people don’t come to any functions that might be offered outside mass (most don’t even go to mass itself) then I would say this is a state of emergency in which priests need to do all they can to capitalize on the 10 to 15 minutes they have those people for.

I also agree that the mass is not a service but rather a sacrifice, firstly the sacrifice of Christ for us and secondly the sacrifices we bring (with the Priest as our mediator). But I would submit that the homily can have a positive effect on the grace we receive from the eucharist in so far as the amount of grace received depends on our disposition and our disposition can be improved by a good homily before-hand. But, again, this all presumes that the homily is a good, authentically Catholic one. Today, sadly, those are rare.

 

[Tighty_Whitey]

Not to be too nitpicky (but I will anyway), it is NOT a service, it is a Mass. ."

Yes, I should have used the only appropriate term, Mass. The balance of your post is a diatribe that has absolutely nothing to do with the point raised in my post.

 

[wynnejj]

In 1900 (USA)…according to statistics gathered by the US Census Bureau, the rate of divorce for males was 84 per 100,000 and 114 per 100,000 for women.

“Rate of divorce” usually refers the number of divorces that occur in the population during a given period. However it is also used in common parlance to refer to the likelihood of a given marriage ending in divorce (as opposed to the death of a spouse). A common myth is that half of all marriages in the United States end in divorce. In reality this is impossible to measure accurately and this myth is based on an misinterpretation of data stating that, in any given year, the number of marriages is about twice the number of divorces.

For example, divide divorce rate by marriage rate in 2009, and you get the common parlance approximation of of “divorce rate” for that year.

cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/divorce.htm

I think the 25% figure was a popular figure mentioned when I was a teenager in the 1960 to 1970 timeframe based on number of divorces divided by number of marriages.

 

[wynnejj]

I was looking at a book entitled “Sermons of the Cure of Ars” (Saint John Vianney). The sermons are very short & sweet (1 to 2 pages) with quite a bit of fire & brimstone. There is one sermon in the book which stands out and is quite long (20 pages).

All the sermons were specifically about how secular or faux Christian behaviour in his neck of the woods measured up to the Christ’s teachings. They were all practical applications of Christ’s teaching in what was then his society.

 

[James924]

“Rate of divorce” usually refers the number of divorces that occur in the population during a given period. However it is also used in common parlance to refer to the likelihood of a given marriage ending in divorce (as opposed to the death of a spouse). A common myth is that half of all marriages in the United States end in divorce. In reality this is impossible to measure accurately and this myth is based on an misinterpretation of data stating that, in any given year, the number of marriages is about twice the number of divorces.

For example, divide divorce rate by marriage rate in 2009, and you get the common parlance approximation of of “divorce rate” for that year.

cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/divorce.htm

I think the 25% figure was a popular figure mentioned when I was a teenager in the 1960 to 1970 timeframe based on number of divorces divided by number of marriages.

I’m sure we all agree there are way too many divorces today.

 

[James924]

I was looking at a book entitled “Sermons of the Cure of Ars” (Saint John Vianney). The sermons are very short & sweet (1 to 2 pages) with quite a bit of fire & brimstone. There is one sermon in the book which stands out and is quite long (20 pages).

All the sermons were specifically about how secular or faux Christian behaviour in his neck of the woods measured up to the Christ’s teachings. They were all practical applications of Christ’s teaching in what was then his society.

Tan has a good collection of St Alphonsus’ sermons too. I recommend checking it out if you enjoy those types of readings.

 

[wynnejj]

You make many good points and thanks for sharing those.

Faith is a gift, yet it is also NOT easy. It takes work, and so many today really reject work. The truth is humanity is very far from perfect, each and every person sins, and sometimes we sin gravely. That means plenty of grave sinners will stubbornly sit in the pews justifying their own sins, yet the Church is a hospital for sinners–it exists for the sake of us sinners.

I will state again that if people took the time to understand what the Eucharist is, they would never cease being Catholic, and they would finds ways to attend Mass more frequently, perhaps daily, and they would do Spiritual Communions frequently.

I once was part of a men’s non-denom Bible study. There were several hundred men, and I had attended for about four years. Over time I began to see how under the surface the study was strongly anti-Catholic, and I knew I could not stay. One day, after visiting the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament in a nearby Catholic Church, I asked the Lord to help me make the correct decision about the Bible study. I then went to the study, but all study participants were in class, so I went to the non-denom worship space, and waited for a lecture there. I was alone in that room, which had space enough for about 1,000 people with theater-like seating. Suddenly, my heart felt crushed, and I mean really crushed to a point of near tears (and that takes a lot for me). I looked all over that room and I realized that I was indeed “alone.” The Lord was not there, there was no Tabernacle, no Blessed Sacrament, nothing but an empty room filled with comfortable chairs.

Just minutes earlier I had asked the Lord for help while I knelt before Him in the Blessed Sacrament and at that exact moment I felt an overwhelming sadness for our non-Catholic brothers and sisters, because I realized how much they were missing! I realized that no amount of Bible study, or so-called Christian fellowship, could ever replace being with, and receiving, our Risen Lord!

I made the decision to leave the study at that moment and I never looked back.

Catholics need to understand what they have, and forget all the extraneous stuff–because all that other “stuff” takes us away from understanding that Jesus is RIGHT THERE for us in all Catholic Churches across the planet.** Thanks and Praise be to God**!

Irishpatrick, You have to forgive me. In my zeal to push my issue that Sunday sermons need to discuss the controversial issues unabashedly, I neglected to say in all fairness just how wonderful a witness story this actually is. You ARE correct to say that the Holy Eucharist will draw you closer to God if made without serious sin. I am in 100% agreement with you on that point. It is an excellent post.

 

[irishpatrick]

Yes, I should have used the only appropriate term, Mass. The balance of your post is a diatribe that has absolutely nothing to do with the point raised in my post.

We disagree. I think I responded to your post most thoroughly.

 

[irishpatrick]

Irishpatrick, You have to forgive me. In my zeal to push my issue that Sunday sermons need to discuss the controversial issues unabashedly, I neglected to say in all fairness just how wonderful a witness story this actually is. You ARE correct to say that the Holy Eucharist will draw you closer to God if made without serious sin. I am in 100% agreement with you on that point. It is an excellent post.

Thank you.

My point all through this thread is that there is a very importance between God and man. God comes to us in the Eucharist, and man speaks to us during a homily. One is perfect, one is very, very far from perfect. One has the ability to literally save our souls, the other can only (at best) help guide us to the one who can save our souls, and that really is at best.

 

[fred_conty]

Hi,
Homilies are not sermons nor are they catecetical teaching.
Homilies are explainations of the scripture readings or of the
common parts of the Mass.

The priest may not preach on whatever he wants but only
on the above. He is confined to the ideas presented in
scripture. This is what our pastor told us.

I remember when I was a boy(and that is saying some),
I rarely heard anything that meant anything to me.
They were sermons then, topics the priest would decide
to talk about. And they had more stories

I don’t recall any sermons on the social order, most were
about our souls, prayer, virtues, interior life, etc. They
emphasized that the person must be close to God, then
this spreads outwards to others. It was more of a personal
holiness. And these were the topics of sermons. At that
time many of our modern immorality issues didn’t exist or
in a much smaller way. Divorces were down. The pill
wasn’t invented yet. Drugs were gotten as medicine and not
for recreation. The Movies were innocent. Rape didn’t exist.
Murder rare. Pron was unknown. And we left keys in doors.

Society is dragging us down. Priests do say things, but is
it something we don’t aready know? About all he can do
is remind us of our roots and give us some encouraging
thoughts that will motivate us, along with what scripture intended
for us to hear.

I believe it is up to ourselves to find info and read catholic
papers, magazines and books so we do keep up. The pulpit
is not the prime source.

The pulpit is not to teach catechism but to help support our
faith and hear our faith expressed. As Jesus told Peter,
“strengthen you brethern”.

Now I await the love letters.