Afraid of NFP - using ABC for now

[Jennifer_J]

Serap

Have you ever taken and NFP course specifically for the Postpartem time? Most forms of NFP offer this.
It can be a very difficult time, but it is very doable. Mucous observations are really what’s most important (temp is just a cross check AFTER ovulation). You are looking for any change in the mucous, esp to the more fertile type, but any change should be counted as fertile mucous. Diaphrams and condoms mess with your ability to check your mucous. You abstain 4 days past peak mucous (when it stops + 4 days). Temps will help you see if you ovulated and KNOW that you are in the safe phase 3 (hurray!)

I would also recommend the Marquette method for further back up (fertility monitor + physical signs):
nfp.marquette.edu/

It is hard to trust God with our fertility–yet he asks us to in no uncertain terms. I understand not having any family help–we live 600 miles from our family. It’s hard. I’m grateful to have a husband who is helpful, however, he travels a lot and I’m on my own more than I’d like to be. What I’m trying to say is YOU can do this, you are strong, you are a problem solver. If you got pregnant if you used contraceptives, then what’s the difference in getting pregnant if you use NFP?? You are placing more trust in a bit of plastic than you should, a bit of plastic that can separate you from a relationship with God, a bit of plastic that can hurt your relationship with your husband.

Find a babysitter for a few hours and go out with your dh. If you can’t do that, put the children to bed and have a romantic evening with your dh–dinner, candles, a movie SOMETHING. Being a mother and father doesn’t stop you from being husband and wife–you just have to be creative, take a bit of time for each other, and remember that that relationship is important, too (though dh needs to realize that baby sometimes needs to come first and be patient)even if you have to abstain for a bit.

Anyway, prayers for you.

 

[VonDerTann]

Nobody has any right to come on this thread and pronounce that anyone else “already knows [what they are doing] is a mortal sin.”

Get the plank out of your own eye before you go after the speck in someone else’s, VetA.

-VdT

 

[cjellis27]

Hi Serap-
I can understand that you are experiencing a difficult and overwhelming time in your life right now. In the past, I too made decisions to use ABC thinking it was best because I was recovering from chemotherapy and having some emotional concerns. Since that time, I have used NFP and hope to someday achieve a pregnancy. Do not succumb to fear. God will give you only what you can handle in the right measure.
Also, I want to address your lack of help… perhaps if there are no family around, there are other mothers who would be willing to help you care for your children and your home. Sometimes all you need to do is ask, and pray.

Much love.
Candace

 

[Jennifer_J]

Nobody has any right to come on this thread and pronounce that anyone else “already knows [what they are doing] is a mortal sin.”

Get the plank out of your own eye before you go after the speck in someone else’s, VetA.

-VdT

While we can’t say whether any PERSON is in MORTAL sin, we can name sins that would be mortal, if all conditions are met.

For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must exist at the same time.

1. It must be of a grave matter;
2. It must be committed with full knowledge that it is a mortal sin;
3. It must be committed with full consent. [Full consent means to do it “voluntarily.”] (C.C.C. # 1857)

Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: ‘Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’ The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger." (C.C.C. # 1858)

“Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s laws. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.” (C.C.C. # 1859)

“When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object… whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbour, such as homicide or adultery… But when the sinner’s will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbour, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.” (C.C.C. # 1856)

Certainly, this is a matter for the person and their confessor, however, it is not wrong to point out that contraception is OBJECTIVELY a mortal sin.

 

[VetA]

Nobody has any right to come on this thread and pronounce that anyone else “already knows [what they are doing] is a mortal sin.”

Get the plank out of your own eye before you go after the speck in someone else’s, VetA.

-VdT

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 7:1-5[/BIBLEDRB]
*I WOULD RECOMMEND LOOKING AT THE HAYDOCK COMMENTARY

if that was the case in ALL situations how could a parent correct his/her kid, how could a priest offer advise in the confessional? with matthew 7:2 i am happy to be judged as i judge because i (in this case) am judging the same as a priest would.

1)Its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter.
2)It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense (no one is considered ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are inborn as part of human knowledge, but these principles can be misunderstood in a particular context).
3)It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_sin

seeing as OP meet all of these requirements how could it not be a mortal sin?

 

[mlchance]

I wish I had more faith.

Those who believe, do. Those who do, believe. Act the way you know you should, and have faith that greater faith will come.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[StJudePray4Me]

VetA, I think you could at least dispense with the huge, all-caps, and red pronouncements. There is no need to scream at the OP (or anyone else) and huge, red, all-caps is the typed version of screaming at someone.

 

[VonDerTann]

Jennifer J: You write, “While we can’t say whether any PERSON is in MORTAL sin, we can name sins that would be mortal, if all conditions are met.”
–No, we really can’t, because no one can ever conclusively state that all conditions are met…
–…and even if we could, what good would it do anyone? Throwing around things like, “this would be a mortal sin if…” only encourages people to essentially needlessly banter about the state of others’ souls.

VetA, screaming in big bold letters adds absolutely nothing to your argument.

When you write, “if that was the case in ALL situations how could a parent correct his/her kid, how could a priest offer advise in the confessional? with matthew 7:2 i am happy to be judged as i judge because i (in this case) am judging the same as a priest would.”

–You are juding as a priest would judge? Shame on you for even suggesting this! First off, priests don’t “judge” at all. Only God does this, and your hair trigger to judge others – while saying you are “judging as a priest would judge” – is, quite frankly, as inconsistent with a loving God as I can imagine. No priest I’ve ever met would ever dare say someone else was absolutely in mortal sin, as you have to the OP based on 2 or 3 internet posts.

–As to your statement, “seeing as OP meet all of these requirements [for mortal sin] how could it not be a mortal sin?,” I can only respond that someone starts judging the state of our souls based on one or 2 emotional posts on the internet, I’d say I think that’s rather thin evidence.

–A parent correcting a child is far different from saying, as you did, “you already know that it is a mortal sin!” with big bold red letters.

---

Folks, why don’t we try to see the big picture here, okay? OP comes here professing to feel lots of pressure with family commitments, crying babies, etc., and doesn’t want or feel able to use NFP, out of an apparent – and understandible – lack of desire for more children. Reading this board regularly, we all see pro-NFP posts – by people with half a dozen or more children. Some respond to the OP with charity. Some responses are literally, “you’re in mortal sin!”

Now let me ask: Does the OP really, really sound like someone who has severed her relationship with God? It certainly doesn’t to me.

To the OP: You have my prayers. I really can’t offer more. I hope others will be as kind.

 

[Serap]

Serap

Have you ever taken and NFP course specifically for the Postpartem time? Most forms of NFP offer this.
It can be a very difficult time, but it is very doable. Mucous observations are really what’s most important (temp is just a cross check AFTER ovulation). You are looking for any change in the mucous, esp to the more fertile type, but any change should be counted as fertile mucous. Diaphrams and condoms mess with your ability to check your mucous. You abstain 4 days past peak mucous (when it stops + 4 days). Temps will help you see if you ovulated and KNOW that you are in the safe phase 3 (hurray!)

I would also recommend the Marquette method for further back up (fertility monitor + physical signs):
nfp.marquette.edu/

It is hard to trust God with our fertility–yet he asks us to in no uncertain terms. I understand not having any family help–we live 600 miles from our family. It’s hard. I’m grateful to have a husband who is helpful, however, he travels a lot and I’m on my own more than I’d like to be. What I’m trying to say is YOU can do this, you are strong, you are a problem solver. If you got pregnant if you used contraceptives, then what’s the difference in getting pregnant if you use NFP?? You are placing more trust in a bit of plastic than you should, a bit of plastic that can separate you from a relationship with God, a bit of plastic that can hurt your relationship with your husband.

Find a babysitter for a few hours and go out with your dh. If you can’t do that, put the children to bed and have a romantic evening with your dh–dinner, candles, a movie SOMETHING. Being a mother and father doesn’t stop you from being husband and wife–you just have to be creative, take a bit of time for each other, and remember that that relationship is important, too (though dh needs to realize that baby sometimes needs to come first and be patient)even if you have to abstain for a bit.

Anyway, prayers for you.

So Jennifer, you just abstain based on cervical mucus observations? If it’s fertile in the least you just avoid? I have been getting a lot of fertile-like mucus lately and I know I’m close to becoming fertile again. With DD, I got my cycle back at 9 months - when I cut the night feed out. With DS, I am feeding him between 9:30 and 10:00 p.m. still, so I think that’s what’s holding things still.

It’s really tough b/c DH and I have been fighting horribly lately and his temper is getting to be too much. He has started to shove me in the heat of passion. I am so afraid that if I get pregnant, it will tear us apart, not to mention my sanity. I have tried to fix things with my husband…I have suggested counselling and he tells me that I’m the one with the issues and he doesn’t need to be fixed. He says that all of our problems are created by me…I’m such an idiot and I lack intelligence and if I were smart, I’d know what the problems were

I have told him that he has anger issues and that I don’t make him act out in anger. He chooses to act out in anger. He says it’s all my fault and my stupidy makes him lose his temper.

We are in a rut and we need to get out of it. A baby definitely would only makes things worse at this point. We need to work things out and that’s all I can focus on right now given that I am also caring for my two beautiful children.

DD is the real victim in all of this. I have pledged to not be selfish by venting infront of my daughter. My husband can be a jerk all he wants, but he’ll have to pay the consequences later. I want to be close to my kids and screaming at my husband is not going to achieve that.

So as you see, there are good reasons why I am afraid. Am I in mortal sin? I don’t know.

As for a romantic outing with him…right now, I don’t even want to look at him. I am so frustrated right now.

 

[Serap]

Jennifer J: You write, “While we can’t say whether any PERSON is in MORTAL sin, we can name sins that would be mortal, if all conditions are met.”
–No, we really can’t, because no one can ever conclusively state that all conditions are met…
–…and even if we could, what good would it do anyone? Throwing around things like, “this would be a mortal sin if…” only encourages people to essentially needlessly banter about the state of others’ souls.

VetA, screaming in big bold letters adds absolutely nothing to your argument.

When you write, “if that was the case in ALL situations how could a parent correct his/her kid, how could a priest offer advise in the confessional? with matthew 7:2 i am happy to be judged as i judge because i (in this case) am judging the same as a priest would.”

–You are juding as a priest would judge? Shame on you for even suggesting this! First off, priests don’t “judge” at all. Only God does this, and your hair trigger to judge others – while saying you are “judging as a priest would judge” – is, quite frankly, as inconsistent with a loving God as I can imagine. No priest I’ve ever met would ever dare say someone else was absolutely in mortal sin, as you have to the OP based on 2 or 3 internet posts.

–As to your statement, “seeing as OP meet all of these requirements [for mortal sin] how could it not be a mortal sin?,” I can only respond that someone starts judging the state of our souls based on one or 2 emotional posts on the internet, I’d say I think that’s rather thin evidence.

–A parent correcting a child is far different from saying, as you did, “you already know that it is a mortal sin!” with big bold red letters.

---

Folks, why don’t we try to see the big picture here, okay? OP comes here professing to feel lots of pressure with family commitments, crying babies, etc., and doesn’t want or feel able to use NFP, out of an apparent – and understandible – lack of desire for more children. Reading this board regularly, we all see pro-NFP posts – by people with half a dozen or more children. Some respond to the OP with charity. Some responses are literally, “you’re in mortal sin!”

Now let me ask: Does the OP really, really sound like someone who has severed her relationship with God? It certainly doesn’t to me.

To the OP: You have my prayers. I really can’t offer more. I hope others will be as kind.

Thank you so so much. I wrote another post, but I have tried so hard to avoid bringing my marital issues into CAF, but today, I am really feeling weak and so I did in my previous post just hoping that someone who has gone through it can shed some light b/c right now, all I can see are clouds.

I know that God is with me b/c he has been responding to my prayers with nothing, but love and that’s what is making me feel even worse.

You’re right…a priest has never told me that I’m in mortal sin even when I’ve asked. The priest has always said that only God knows that.

 

[shannyk]

Serap I’m so sorry to hear this your husband is being Physically and emotionally abusive plain and simple. The problem here is not NFP it’s your marriage. I emplore you to get some help and get away from your husband if he is acting this way.

 

[Serap]

Serap I’m so sorry to hear this your husband is being Physically and emotionally abusive plain and simple. The problem here is not NFP it’s your marriage. I emplore you to get some help and get away from your husband if he is acting this way.

Yes I know. He has never “hit” me, but what’s the next step from shoving me? I will NOT ever put up with physical abuse.

I have just been ignoring him. After I confronted him with research from the internet about fighting infront of children and phsyical abuse consequences, he told me that I’m an idiot with issues and it’s all my fault. He said that he doesn’t need to read an article that states the obvious and that I bring out the worst in him. I just wanted to talk about it and he wasn’t interested; so typical.

His behaviour has been recent. We have yelled at eachother in the past, but he has decided to become more aggressive in his behaviour lately. I am scared that new habits are going to develop. I need to set a good example for our kids; we are shaping their future behaviour.

Our marriage was so amazing before I got pregnant with DS. I don’t know what happened. I understand that the colic was a nightmare, but he’s got to get over it. DS’s colic has been gone now for 6 weeks; he’s even sleeping through the night most nights now. What does DH have to be so stressed over? Our house needs to be renovated, but that’s life isn’t it? It’s stressful thinking about it, but so what? At least we have a house

DH said goodbye to me as he left for work and I just ignored him. I am going to ignore him for a while. That way, we won’t have anything to fight about. He can be sorry all he wants, but I want to see an attitude adjustment before I begin to lighten up again.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Serap I’m so sorry to hear this your husband is being Physically and emotionally abusive plain and simple. The problem here is not NFP it’s your marriage. I emplore you to get some help and get away from your husband if he is acting this way.

Yes, what Shanny said. NFP is not the issue. The fact that your husband is a classic abuser is the problem. His hitting/shoving/yelling at you is NOT your fault. I know you love him but you MUST think of your children. Being in this situation is bad for them. I’ve seen my mother hit and yelled at by my stepfather and it affects me to this day. This behavior is NOT NORMAL. You’re right, a romantic evening isn’t going to fix this. Go find help. Go to counseling.

 

[sanctareparata]

So Jennifer, you just abstain based on cervical mucus observations? If it’s fertile in the least you just avoid? I have been getting a lot of fertile-like mucus lately and I know I’m close to becoming fertile again. With DD, I got my cycle back at 9 months - when I cut the night feed out. With DS, I am feeding him between 9:30 and 10:00 p.m. still, so I think that’s what’s holding things still.

It’s really tough b/c DH and I have been fighting horribly lately and his temper is getting to be too much. He has started to shove me in the heat of passion. I am so afraid that if I get pregnant, it will tear us apart, not to mention my sanity. I have tried to fix things with my husband…I have suggested counselling and he tells me that I’m the one with the issues and he doesn’t need to be fixed. He says that all of our problems are created by me…I’m such an idiot and I lack intelligence and if I were smart, I’d know what the problems were

I have told him that he has anger issues and that I don’t make him act out in anger. He chooses to act out in anger. He says it’s all my fault and my stupidy makes him lose his temper.

We are in a rut and we need to get out of it. A baby definitely would only makes things worse at this point. We need to work things out and that’s all I can focus on right now given that I am also caring for my two beautiful children.

DD is the real victim in all of this. I have pledged to not be selfish by venting infront of my daughter. My husband can be a jerk all he wants, but he’ll have to pay the consequences later. I want to be close to my kids and screaming at my husband is not going to achieve that.

So as you see, there are good reasons why I am afraid. Am I in mortal sin? I don’t know.

As for a romantic outing with him…right now, I don’t even want to look at him. I am so frustrated right now.

Serap, I’ll try to say this as gently as possible.

Why on earth are you risking YOUR salvation by using ABC in order to “safely” sleep with a husband who verbally, emotionally and now physically ABUSES you? Why is your soul worth his sexual gratification?

Which sounds like it’s all he really wants - sex. Not closeness with the person who is his wife.

And by remaining in this situation, allowing him to fling his insults and scream at you while in front of your daughter, isn’t going to just ruin her relationship with him, but will ruin HER as well. She will begin to see that it’s okay if men treat women that way, it’s a non issue, because mommy took it from daddy. And girls who witness spousal abuse often choose bad husbands because they search for someone like dad.

ABC will not help your marriage; I can guarantee that. It may even hurt your marriage, because now your husband can have your body but remain detached from you. There is no giving of self, only taking. How can that help heal things? It can’t.

What you need now, I’m afraid, is to step away from your marriage. Get yourself to a safe place where your children won’t witness this abuse, and figure out what, if anything, can be done.

Your husband sounds like a very angry man who places all the blame for his unhappiness on you and his children. What happens if the next time he is angered he doesn’t just shove you, but hit you?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I am not using the “pill”. I am using a diaphram to be exact. That way, when I get my period back, I can stop using it and go back to NFP. I’m just too afraid. I wish I had more faith.

Hi. I will be truthful, I’m a former ABC user. When my DH an I started to be closer to the faith, I stopped.

My DD was conceived right after we stopped completely. She nursed for 2 years.

I learned Billings on my own with a workbook. They have on online site you can learn from for a fee: www.woomb.org.

I learned post partum, while nursing. It isn’t that hard…really.

BTW if you are using a diaphragm, if it’s from before you gave birth, it might not be the right fit…so you might just have a false sense of security. You only need one sperm.

Actually, in both billings and Creighton, they teach that genital contact must be avoided during fertile time…because it is possible to conceive without doing the deed.

I know how you feel. I’m 40, and I had 2 miscarriages and a preemie all in one year. Right now, I’m not mentally ready to go through that again. I trust NFP alot.

Talk to your DH about it. (my DH is also Italian…so it is possible)

 

[sanctareparata]

Yes I know. He has never “hit” me, but what’s the next step from shoving me? I will NOT ever put up with physical abuse.

You already are. He shoves you.

And you have been putting up with other forms of abuse (emotional, verbal) for a long time now.

He doesn’t deserve you.

 

[gardenswithkids]

…It’s really tough b/c DH and I have been fighting horribly lately and his temper is getting to be too much. He has started to shove me in the heat of passion. I am so afraid that if I get pregnant, it will tear us apart, not to mention my sanity. …

Serap, I believe it’s very important to be clear about your fears. You entitled this thread “Afraid of NFP”, but it seems to me that what you fear is pregnancy, another child, your marriage falling apart, and… your husband’s temper.

NFP isn’t the real problem, and a diaphram isn’t the answer.

I’ll say some prayers for you, your husband and the situation.

 

[Serap]

Serap, I’ll try to say this as gently as possible.

Why on earth are you risking YOUR salvation by using ABC in order to “safely” sleep with a husband who verbally, emotionally and now physically ABUSES you? Why is your soul worth his sexual gratification?

No, but I keep hoping that we will re-connect somehow by making love.

Which sounds like it’s all he really wants - sex. Not closeness with the person who is his wife.

He does want the closeness; he has issues and he’s not coping with them. He damaging our family by venting his anger and frustration.

And by remaining in this situation, allowing him to fling his insults and scream at you while in front of your daughter, isn’t going to just ruin her relationship with him, but will ruin HER as well. She will begin to see that it’s okay if men treat women that way, it’s a non issue, because mommy took it from daddy. And girls who witness spousal abuse often choose bad husbands because they search for someone like dad.

Yes, I know.

ABC will not help your marriage; I can guarantee that. It may even hurt your marriage, because now your husband can have your body but remain detached from you. There is no giving of self, only taking. How can that help heal things? It can’t.

What you need now, I’m afraid, is to step away from your marriage. Get yourself to a safe place where your children won’t witness this abuse, and figure out what, if anything, can be done.

Your husband sounds like a very angry man who places all the blame for his unhappiness on you and his children. What happens if the next time he is angered he doesn’t just shove you, but hit you?

I’d be out the door, but I’ll cross that bridge if I get to it.

I just came off a Christian marriage website and it gave advice on how to deal with the exact issues that I’m facing (not ABC, but the other issues). It said to not react and simple get up and leave the room/house whatever and let the other person know you are just not going to put up with it.

I at least should give it a try b/c I have been yelling back at him also and I have been calling him names back. Then the anger escalates on both sides.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

So Jennifer, you just abstain based on cervical mucus observations? If it’s fertile in the least you just avoid? I have been getting a lot of fertile-like mucus lately and I know I’m close to becoming fertile again. With DD, I got my cycle back at 9 months - when I cut the night feed out. With DS, I am feeding him between 9:30 and 10:00 p.m. still, so I think that’s what’s holding things still.

It’s really tough b/c DH and I have been fighting horribly lately and his temper is getting to be too much. He has started to shove me in the heat of passion. I am so afraid that if I get pregnant, it will tear us apart, not to mention my sanity. I have tried to fix things with my husband…I have suggested counselling and he tells me that I’m the one with the issues and he doesn’t need to be fixed. He says that all of our problems are created by me…I’m such an idiot and I lack intelligence and if I were smart, I’d know what the problems were
I have told him that he has anger issues and that I don’t make him act out in anger. He chooses to act out in anger. He says it’s all my fault and my stupidy makes him lose his temper.

We are in a rut and we need to get out of it. A baby definitely would only makes things worse at this point. We need to work things out and that’s all I can focus on right now given that I am also caring for my two beautiful children.

DD is the real victim in all of this. I have pledged to not be selfish by venting infront of my daughter. My husband can be a jerk all he wants, but he’ll have to pay the consequences later. I want to be close to my kids and screaming at my husband is not going to achieve that.

So as you see, there are good reasons why I am afraid. Am I in mortal sin? I don’t know.

As for a romantic outing with him…right now, I don’t even want to look at him. I am so frustrated right now.

I didn’t see this part…he isn’t supposed to shove you.

Ask him if he imagines St. Joseph ever pushing Our Lady.

He needs to reevaluate what it means to be a man. A real man helps his wife do her most important job, taking care of the baby. I don’t get how come it’s hard for a lot of men.

I come from the same culture…some Italian men (some…not all… )are taught that they are not supposed to do anything in the house. I’ve been given the advice from my MIL to “never refuse your husband because he will look elsewhere, and that men need sex more than women. ”

 

[whm]

Well this is a very different situation then when the thread first started. This situation needs to change, don’t discount the impact of your husband being in sinful state. This is what sin does to people, they turn away from God, loss their grace and all sorts of bad tenancies surface. I think you should do the following in this order:

1. Go to confession.
2. Meet with your priest and discuss the whole situation. He will guide you better than us (and better than you can guide yourself).
3. Ask your husband to meet with the priest. Hopefully he will confess his sins too.
4. If your husband refuses to meet with the priest, you may very well need to separate for the safety of you and your kids.
5. Do you have a good relationship with his parents? Perhaps you can discretely share your concerns with them without being too specific. Sometimes a parent can have a lot of influence.

I think it is important that you do these steps in order. Your husband is in grave sin and it shows by his actions. It may be possible for him to get “cleaned” up and return to the man he used to be, but if is unwilling to acknowledge it and refuses to meet with a priest he is making the decision for you.