Afraid of NFP - using ABC for now

[kevinsgirl]

Yes I know. He has never “hit” me, but what’s the next step from shoving me? I will NOT ever put up with physical abuse.

Honestly, Serap, it’s already physical abuse.

I’m sorry you’re using ABC–I know babies can be difficult but ABC can destroy a marriage, Serap.

I think using ABC is not the answer right now since it’s keeping you two from communicating–and I think seeing a priest would be a good idea too!

I know how hard it can be with one little one and I’m blessed to have help–I can’t imagine how hard it must be with two and no help. Lots of hugs, girl, and I hope you decide to talk to a priest. I’m worried for you. :hug1:

KG

 

[mommamia]

Just got home from work

I won’t address the ABC issue, as I am an unrepentant ABC user (dh had a vasectomy before I had my hysterectomy). I completely understand why you would want to work on your marriage right now.

But first lets not underestimate the power of prayer. Pray for your marriage and your husband, this is your first line of defense.

I think it is important that he not think you are giving up on him or the marriage. In our worst period I once sat dh down and told him I would not stand for his treatment any longer. When he asked “so you want a divorce” I told him absolutely not, I love him and always wanted to be with him…but I would not stand for being belittled and yelled at all the time.

When I said your dh sounded like mine, I was meaning the bad father. His biological father beat his mother for years. His adopted dad (her second husband) doesn’t really care a bit about “her” kids, and he is an incredibly bitter man. He spent their entire childhood belittling, using sarcasm and just being petty to them, and he finds a lot of humor in belittling and humiliating his wife. Helping dh to come to terms with this, while acknowledging how much better he was as a father and husband than those two was a great help. My dh lost twice in the daddy lottery, and my heart really hurts for that little boy who felt so unloved.

Letting someone see how much you admire their good qualities is a good way to see those qualities more. And please, take time each day to focus on YOUR good qualities also. It can become too easy to think that maybe it is your fault…but you must remember that you deserve respect from your husband. Pushing you crosses the line, you must not tolerate that! That worries me. I do highly suggest you go to counseling, alone if needed. Its good to get that outside take on the situation.

Remember it takes two to fight, you can just refuse to be part of it. You must be strong, and while letting him know you love him and are there for him, you will not tolerate this behavior, and repeat that as much as needed. We have gotten to a point where I will just look at dh and say “your loosing it”, he knows then that he either needs to calm down (walking away when needed, never stop a man who needs to walk away to calm down, let him go) or that I will leave, whether to another room or another place altogether can depend on how heated things are, I always take the kids if I leave the house.

And also remember you are his wife. Make the time to be his wife. Don’t turn away from intimacy now, when you need to find that connection with him. Be there at the end of the day to listen to him and snuggle with him. When you can get him in a calm mood, listen to his complaints too, and try to see his POV if you can.

I hope this is coherent, I work too many hours sometimes. :hug3: Your family will be in my prayers.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Thanks Shannyk. You went through this too? You have been through so much too!! I have read your previous posts about your family.

Oh, I didn’t think anyone was bashing my husband at all! Don’t get me wrong.

I believe at this moment in time that he will change if I help him b/c if anything, he’ll do it to keep his family together and for his kids.

Disclaimer…I come from a very discfunctional extended family. My own small unit was somewhat functional.

He can change. You can’t change him.

My granparents had a terrible marriage because…who the heck knows but they had terrible fights, my grandfather suffered with some type of undiagnosed mental illness…my grandmother would go through dark depressions that would las for weeks at a time.

When she was dying, you think they would perhaps reconcile? She said that if she got better she was going to divorce him…after 48 years married. She said, “I couldn’t change him”

He can change. He has to want to.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

For garden with kids.

When I was 21 i had a relationship with this real manipulative winner.

He never hit me…but he told me exactly what infractions “I” would get hit for. If I wore a miniskirt. If I would go dancing with my friends. If I ever called him a name. He told me I would get hit.

Once we went out to dinner with my uncle who was treating. This winner whispered in my ear that I had terrible table manners, because I had my elbows on the table.

He would be very forward sexually with me, trying to get me to submit. One time I was in tears, trying to get him to stop. You know what he told me, “I was testing you to see if you were a nice girl.”

He used to call me beautiful all the time.

 

[RedSoxWife]

Hi Serap-
I’m so sorry you’re going through all this right now. I’m praying for you!

 

[Serap]

This is what my priest friend wrote…he knows both of us very well…

Thanks for sharing all this with me, and of course I’m sorry to hear that you and xxxx are hitting a rough patch. The two of you have a good thing going and you have many reasons to fight for your marriage. I’m a firm believer that the worst of problems can be overcome with hard work and faith. If xxxx, doesn’t want to go for counselling, it would still be good for you to go by yourself if only to learn ways to cope with a difficult situation. I always send people to Catholic Family Services, since the counselors there believe in marriage and will do what they can to keep the two of you together. There are also movements (retreats) like Retrouvaille that have save many troubled marriages. If ever xxxx decides that he’s comfortable speaking with a priest about this you know I’m only a phone call away and will make the time for both of you. Be assured of my prayers for now.
fondly,
Fr. E.

 

[Serap]

For garden with kids.

When I was 21 i had a relationship with this real manipulative winner.

He never hit me…but he told me exactly what infractions “I” would get hit for. If I wore a miniskirt. If I would go dancing with my friends. If I ever called him a name. He told me I would get hit.

Once we went out to dinner with my uncle who was treating. This winner whispered in my ear that I had terrible table manners, because I had my elbows on the table.

He would be very forward sexually with me, trying to get me to submit. One time I was in tears, trying to get him to stop. You know what he told me, “I was testing you to see if you were a nice girl.”

He used to call me beautiful all the time.

My husband has never said anything like what you described above. That must have been awful. He gives me my freedom to continue my friendships and hobbies.

If I don’t want sex, he is ok with that. Part of me wants to be close to him even if it’s through sex.

 

[prolifewife]

Well shanny, then its equally sad when women yell and call their husbands names or verbally chastise and degrade their men too.

I’m not holding Serap’s previous posts against her. But based on some of her previous post, I don’t think she’s married to a total jerk. I think she’s smarter than that. I remember the “Does breastfeeding make you look fat” thread where she wrote this
Those aren’t the words of a total jerk, (even if he does act like a jerk at times.) He sounds like a man who truly loves her (and who probably does want to be emotionally connected even if he doesn’t always know how to best accomplish that.)

I also remember a few other things she wrote. And I notice that in general her posts are well written. She’s a lady skilled with words, and I’m guessing that she can use her words to cut her husband down in an argument without ever resorting to swearing or physical violence.

In case it’s not obvious, I want to make it clear that I’m *not *defending physical violence or name calling. Yet there are other forms of verbal “abuse” that is more typically dished out by women towards their husbands. I might be wrong, but I suspect that her husband’s anger might be a bad (and sinful) reaction to some poor behavior and verbal tirades on her part. And if that is the case, I sympathize with her as a fellow sinner. :hug1: I have also said mean things to my husband when irritable and tired and stressed by parenting with little family support.

I agree with this Gardens. There’s always two sides to every coin. Two persons in a marriage, and Serap admitted she hasn’t been perfect herself in this situation.

Also this husband wasn’t always like this according to Serap AND her priest.

This is what my priest friend wrote…he knows both of us very well…

Thanks for sharing all this with me, and of course I’m sorry to hear that you and xxxx are hitting a rough patch. The two of you have a good thing going and you have many reasons to fight for your marriage. I’m a firm believer that the worst of problems can be overcome with hard work and faith. If xxxx, doesn’t want to go for counselling, it would still be good for you to go by yourself if only to learn ways to cope with a difficult situation. I always send people to Catholic Family Services, since the counselors there believe in marriage and will do what they can to keep the two of you together. There are also movements (retreats) like Retrouvaille that have save many troubled marriages. If ever xxxx decides that he’s comfortable speaking with a priest about this you know I’m only a phone call away and will make the time for both of you. Be assured of my prayers for now.
fondly,
Fr. E.

I think you should listen to your priest. He has the right idea.

I asked you this once, but you might not have seen it (this thread is SO busy! )…Do you think your DH might be jealous of the baby? Lots of men get baby jealousy, especially with a high needs baby as you have. They miss all the time and attention that was once theirs. And you said this all started after the birth of your son. Just something to think about. It might be as simple as that.

And, yes, go to counseling even if he won’t come. It was worth it for me.

 

[catharina]

This is what my priest friend wrote…he knows both of us very well…

Thanks for sharing all this with me, and of course I’m sorry to hear that you and xxxx are hitting a rough patch. The two of you have a good thing going and you have many reasons to fight for your marriage. I’m a firm believer that the worst of problems can be overcome with hard work and faith. If xxxx, doesn’t want to go for counselling, it would still be good for you to go by yourself if only to learn ways to cope with a difficult situation. I always send people to Catholic Family Services, since the counselors there believe in marriage and will do what they can to keep the two of you together. There are also movements (retreats) like Retrouvaille that have save many troubled marriages. If ever xxxx decides that he’s comfortable speaking with a priest about this you know I’m only a phone call away and will make the time for both of you. Be assured of my prayers for now.
fondly,
Fr. E.

Serap, I saw this thread yesterday and I knew I would have to wait to respond to it.
While it’s a enormous blessing to have such a good priest in your life, it’s only a start.
I am so distressed by your report and your obvious need to minimize the abuse.

Your husband has gone way beyond “hitting a rough patch.”
He has become violent and worst of all, he “justifies” it by blaming you.
This justification is THE classic sign of an abuser.
Also, lovey-dovey apologies after abusing - a second classic sign.

I feel terrible for you and for your children.
Your husband is on a downward spiral.
Raised by an abusive father, your husband is following that path.

You can’t change him.
He sees no need for changing himself.
That last is the scariest thing of all.

Find a Catholic counselor AT ONCE, through your priest if possible.
Get the children out of the house as often as possible.
The weather must be pleasant by now. Walk to a park or even around the block.
Staying inside the “four walls” is terrible for you and your babies.
Eat well and rest when the children are resting.

You are in a very dangerous situation. Wake up and smell the coffee.
Get counseling alone (bring the babies!) if your husband won’t join you.

You’re in my prayers.
Do NOT minimize your situation.
As for ABC, this man has shoved you!
Why are you allowing him to touch you?
Yes, it is THAT serious. Bless you.

 

[prolifewife]

How often has he shoved you. Once? Multiple times?

My husband may have yelled at me, and that hurt enough. But he never ever touched me in anything but a loving way. Even though I do agree with you that it is best to try to save this marriage, I also agree that he’s starting to cross inappropriate lines and only worse is yet to come if it’s not stopped N-O-W. :console:

Also, everytime my husband yelled at me, he later apologized for it. He knew deep down that yelling at me was not the right approach, he just didn’t know how to get his point across in a non angry way. Now he does and things are soooooo much better. He still gets angry and yelling from time to time, but I just remind him and he calms down and tries it again in a nicer way. My husband was really R-E-A-L-L-Y willing to work this out. Once we both started trying, things really improved But it will only work if both of you are trying. You might have to try first, but he will need to soon follow suit. If he doesn’t be sure to bring that up with your counselor or priest so they can advise you on the next steps to take.

I’m thinking of you in a most special way today. :hug3:

 

[catharina]

How often has he shoved you. Once? Multiple times?

My husband may have yelled at me, and that hurt enough. But he never ever touched me in anything but a loving way. Even though I do agree with you that it is best to try to save this marriage, I also agree that he’s starting to cross inappropriate lines and only worse is yet to come if it’s not stopped N-O-W. :console:

Also, everytime my husband yelled at me, he later apologized for it. He knew deep down that yelling at me was not the right approach, he just didn’t know how to get his point across in a non angry way. Now he does and things are soooooo much better. He still gets angry and yelling from time to time, but I just remind him and he calms down and tries it again in a nicer way. My husband was really R-E-A-L-L-Y willing to work this out. Once we both started trying, things really improved But it will only work if both of you are trying. You might have to try first, but he will need to soon follow suit. If he doesn’t be sure to bring that up with your counselor or priest so they can advise you on the next steps to take.

I’m thinking of you in a most special way today. :hug3:

re Bolded above.
You are so correct.
A line has been crossed.

 

[Serap]

I agree with this Gardens. There’s always two sides to every coin. Two persons in a marriage, and Serap admitted she hasn’t been perfect herself in this situation.

Also this husband wasn’t always like this according to Serap AND her priest.

I think you should listen to your priest. He has the right idea.

I asked you this once, but you might not have seen it (this thread is SO busy! )…Do you think your DH might be jealous of the baby? Lots of men get baby jealousy, especially with a high needs baby as you have. They miss all the time and attention that was once theirs. And you said this all started after the birth of your son. Just something to think about. It might be as simple as that.

And, yes, go to counseling even if he won’t come. It was worth it for me.

Perhaps it’s more that I just haven’t been my self since he was born. I have been preoccupied with my kids.

I do not feel that I am in “danger” as someone expressed. I feel that my marriage is in trouble and that I am willing to take the first major steps to fix it. I am willing to fight for my marriage right now. If that changes, I am not afraid of leaving and living somewhere else. It would take time to plan, but it’s very doable. I’m definitely not a victim in all of this…I am a survivor and will always come out on top as a survivor.

I’m not in denial or making excuses for him or me. I am aware of the entire situation and it needs to be fixes ASAP! If it takes me to do the leg work, then so be it.

If DH chooses not to change enough to make me and the kids happy, then I will have exhausted everything and a separation will be the next step.

I would only divorce if I have exhausted EVERYTHING. I’m a fighter by nature.

 

[Serap]

re Bolded above.
You are so correct.
A line has been crossed.

Yes it has and I’m fully aware of the possible consequences, but I have to at least try for the sake of my family.

 

[TamM]

I’m sorry your going through all this. You mentioned that this just started after DS was born?? Recent research has confirmed what I suspected…men also can suffer from PPD. I know my DH did (by my own diagnosis). If you have the same doctor maybe you could mention some of this to him/her? Praying for you Serap, and if he hits you, be sure you leave and call the police as well. Doesn’t mean he’ll rot in jail, and it doesn’t mean you’re gone for good. But leave.

P.S, HIS reactions are NOT your fault.

hugs.

 

[gardenswithkids]

For garden with kids.

When I was 21 i had a relationship with this real manipulative winner. …
He used to call me beautiful all the time.

Mary Gail, I wouldn’t have gone on the next date with the manipulative jerk after the first hint of the problems you described. Then again, I don’t come from a highly dysfunctional family. I’m more familiar with the moderately functional yet imperfect, with an odd ball here and there.

In my experience in my husband’s family, the women are more likely to be the instigators. I’ve heard one particularly difficult woman in his family yell things to her husband (and mine) that *nobody *should have to put up with. Yet no one touches her, and she seems to think it’s perfectly acceptable to say what she says. Or perhaps more likely, she doesn’t fully realize what she says to other people and how it hurts them.

Of course Serap’s husband should not physical push her during an argument–that should go without saying, but I’ll say it again anyway. He shouldn’t do it. We all know that.

What some of you may not fully realize and the point I’ve tried to make previously is this: sometimes women verbally push around men. Sometimes both the husband and wife say ugly and hurtful things to each other when they argue. Sometimes both behave badly. I believe there’s Catholic term for this. Sin. It’s not beautiful, and none of us are exempt from sinning. When there’s something going wrong in our marriages, we cannot change the other person, but we can change ourselves.

---

I know that Serap wants to make a change. I suspect that she was looking for change when she turned to a diaphram. I’m glad to see she also turned to a priest and received a response from him on counseling.

 

[Serap]

What some of you may not fully realize and the point I’ve tried to make previously is this: sometimes women verbally push around men. Sometimes both the husband and wife say ugly and hurtful things to each other when they argue. Sometimes both behave badly. I believe there’s Catholic term for this. Sin. It’s not beautiful, and none of us are exempt from sinning. When there’s something going wrong in our marriages, we cannot change the other person, but we can change ourselves.

NAIL ON THE HEAD!!

I have been verbally abusive; I have screamed terrible things at him; I have told him he’s a bad father; I have told him that I never should have married him…do I mean these things? No and it’s my problem that I say these things to him.

Does he mean the things he says? No and he shouldn’t say it to me either.

We are both wrong, abusive and sinning. I thought that maybe our behaviour would pass once DS’ colic was gone. He has been sleeping well for a month now and the behaviour is continuing.

This means one thing - nasty habits are forming. We don’t know how to bring it back to where it was before we began this habitual arguing. And yes, I believe it is habit forming when a couple escalates their passion over time…each new level becomes the new norm and a new acceptable habit has been formed and the couple becomes desensitized to it.

This cannot continue for us.

 

[Serap]

I’m sorry your going through all this. You mentioned that this just started after DS was born?? Recent research has confirmed what I suspected…men also can suffer from PPD. I know my DH did (by my own diagnosis). If you have the same doctor maybe you could mention some of this to him/her? Praying for you Serap, and if he hits you, be sure you leave and call the police as well. Doesn’t mean he’ll rot in jail, and it doesn’t mean you’re gone for good. But leave.

P.S, HIS reactions are NOT your fault.

hugs.

Thanks. I think there may be some residual depression from the nightmare we endured with DS’s colic.

And no - pushing is never acceptable no matter what someone is feeling.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Mary Gail, I wouldn’t have gone on the next date with the manipulative jerk after the first hint of the problems you described. Then again, I don’t come from a highly dysfunctional family. I’m more familiar with the moderately functional yet imperfect, with an odd ball here and there.

In my experience in my husband’s family, the women are more likely to be the instigators. I’ve heard one particularly difficult woman in his family yell things to her husband (and mine) that *nobody *should have to put up with. Yet no one touches her, and she seems to think it’s perfectly acceptable to say what she says. Or perhaps more likely, she doesn’t fully realize what she says to other people and how it hurts them.

Of course Serap’s husband should not physical push her during an argument–that should go without saying, but I’ll say it again anyway. He shouldn’t do it. We all know that.

What some of you may not fully realize and the point I’ve tried to make previously is this: sometimes women verbally push around men. Sometimes both the husband and wife say ugly and hurtful things to each other when they argue. Sometimes both behave badly. I believe there’s Catholic term for this. Sin. It’s not beautiful, and none of us are exempt from sinning. When there’s something going wrong in our marriages, we cannot change the other person, but we can change ourselves.

---

I know that Serap wants to make a change. I suspect that she was looking for change when she turned to a diaphram. I’m glad to see she also turned to a priest and received a response from him on counseling.

This isn’t for Serap…it’s in general.

If you haven’t been in an abusive relationship…it’s really simple to say that you wouldn’t date him after the first time they are manipulative.

Abusive guys don’t beat you up on the first date…and the abused girl doesn’t stay with him because she is stupid. (btw…I said my extended family was :hypno: not my own family unit. My Dad was a great Dad)

Abusive guys start off larger than life, extra romantic, extra emotional. They are sweet talkers. They are master manipulators. They are expert liars who seem very sincere when they say, “I’m sorry…I love you…I won’t do it again.”

Before they ever hit, they subtly erode away at any self esteem their girlfriend might have. It’s subtle…

I don’t mean at all that this is Serap’s scenario.

I mean if a guy tells someone they are beautiful, it might not preclude abuse.

 

[Serap]

This isn’t for Serap…it’s in general.

If you haven’t been in an abusive relationship…it’s really simple to say that you wouldn’t date him after the first time they are manipulative.

Abusive guys don’t beat you up on the first date…and the abused girl doesn’t stay with him because she is stupid. (btw…I said my extended family was :hypno: not my own family unit. My Dad was a great Dad)

Abusive guys start off larger than life, extra romantic, extra emotional. They are sweet talkers. They are master manipulators. They are expert liars who seem very sincere when they say, “I’m sorry…I love you…I won’t do it again.”

Before they ever hit, they subtly erode away at any self esteem their girlfriend might have. It’s subtle…

I don’t mean at all that this is Serap’s scenario.

I mean if a guy tells someone they are beautiful, it might not preclude abuse.

This is just not my husband. He doesn’t fit this bill at all. He is super non-manipulative. He was never a sweet-talker. I think we just hit a very bad patch is all.

I know you mentioned this doesn’t apply to me, but it still made me think about how it may apply to me and it doesn’t…thanks be to God.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

This is just not my husband. He doesn’t fit this bill at all. He is super non-manipulative. He was never a sweet-talker. I think we just hit a very bad patch is all.

I know you mentioned this doesn’t apply to me, but it still made me think about how it may apply to me and it doesn’t…thanks be to God.

Well, that’s a very good thing to know.

My DH is a good man…and we have had fights. Sometimes the fights, come from external temptations. Keep that in mind, too. I don’t know if your DH is a practicing Catholic…but maybe go to confession together.

Don’t discount God’s grace.