Against final causality

  • Thread starter Thread starter DanAl
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
There are several studies that shows that our decision is made by subconsciousness and our consciousness become aware of decision afterwards. Please read: psychologytoday.com/blog/memory-medic/201010/free-will-is-not-illusion
This conclusion is flawed by the fact that our rational decisions are not made in time or space. Otherwise they would be made by the subconscious and we would not be responsible for any of our decisions or conclusions. Your “reasons” would be caused by what has happened to your body and completely worthless. Biological machines are not responsible in any way for their activity…
 
Bahman:
For all your references to psychologytoday.com, just because some scientists say something conceptually incoherent doesn’t make it true. Self-evidently, free decisions must be conscious.
👍 The conclusions of psychologists would be caused by their subconscious and would be irrational - motivated by their fears, desires, likes and dislikes, dreams, fantasies, misfortunes, inhibitions, temptations, lust for power and other weaknesses. No one would trust persons who cannot control themselves…
 
40.png
tonyrey:
This conclusion is flawed by the fact that our rational decisions are not made in time or space. Otherwise they would be made by the subconscious and we would not be responsible for any of our decisions or conclusions.
While I agree that biological machines aren’t responsible for their activity, I don’t see why a temporal decision has to be subconscious.
 
Why you deduced that my argument is an illusion.
Its an illusion based on your statement that only self is real.
  1. only self is real
  2. your argument is not self
Your argument is an illusion. QED
 
Its an illusion based on your statement that only self is real.
  1. only self is real
  2. your argument is not self
Your argument is an illusion. QED
My argument is made by self so it is real. You however receive it through illusion.
 
This conclusion is flawed by the fact that our rational decisions are not made in time or space. Otherwise they would be made by the subconscious and we would not be responsible for any of our decisions or conclusions. Your “reasons” would be caused by what has happened to your body and completely worthless. Biological machines are not responsible in any way for their activity…
Free will is not used for decisions completely made by conscious mind. Example, do you want a glass of wine or a glass of poison? Your conscious mind quickly decide about glass of wine as it conclude that glass of wine is better than poison.
 
Free will is not used for decisions completely made by conscious mind. Example, do you want a glass of wine or a glass of poison? Your conscious mind quickly decide about glass of wine as it conclude that glass of wine is better than poison.
Do you think your **only **choice is between wine or poison? :ehh:
 
This thread is just too insane for words. Why are people responding?

Linus2nd
 
It already starts with confusion. **Telos **is supposed to be the “end” point of causal chain, while “cause” is the antecedent or starting point. These are confused within the “teleological” argument…
Then you can “ponder” about the “aim” of a natural phenomenon, for example an avalanche. It has no “telos” or aim. The final result is simply a new natural equilibrium of the snow. If it happens to destroy a village, it simply “happened”, but it was not the “aim”. One cannot rationally speak of a rock falling down (or an Earthquake) to “aim” itself toward some “potential”. The whole teleological argument is meaningless, it attempts to impose some anthropomorphic feature onto the unthinking reality.
Physics speaks of ‘potential’ energy in relation to a rock that is falling. It has a potential energy equal to mass times distance times acceleration. Chemistry also speaks of spontaneous reactions and entropy. A rock in motion has a potential energy that leads it to move toward a resting state. Entropy says the same thing. The falling rock will stop. when it hits the floor. At that point its potential is zero. Entropy is basically the measure of energy in the system. It is always approaching zero. The system will eventual reach a state of equilibrium (when the rock is on the floor) when no more energy exists or work can be done without an outside source of energy. So teleology or final causality is part of basic scientific thought.
 
I’m not just saying that it’s mediated by perception. I’m saying that our perception is calculated by an algorithm (designed by God) that is very like the matrix. In which case, everything would be just the same as if physical stuff were real.
I don’t know what that is supposed to mean. But I find the claim that “our perception is calculated by an algorithm” fishy at best. This would make perception the result of a mathematical equation; and I would think that it certainly is not. I don’t see how an equation could actually produce an act of perception.
The inherent existence of an unconscious thing is empty.
“Inherent existence… is empty”. We wonder how something that has something “inherent” manages notwithstanding to be described as “empty”. This would seem to require believing that existence itself is ‘emptiness’ or ‘meaningless’, but this has not been established.
Consciousness essentially means to be able to perceive anything.
I would agree that essentially it is a capacity to perceive or become aware of things in some way.
And if physical things can’t do that, their existence is meaningless.
Non-sequitur.

You are assuming that existence is itself meaningless or that only consciously existing beings can be meaningful ones. But I could think of a few reasons to doubt that claim.

Consider artificial things: although physical and not conscious, obviously they still have a meaningful existence since by our use of them we make their existence meaningful (and we produce them for meaningful ends or purposes): mere noises become meaningful words and mere blotches and scratches on paper can come to mean Hamlet.

Again, something in a series that is intermediate between a starting-point and an end or goal to be achieved has meaning even if it is something only intermediary or ultimately for the sake of an end or goal. E.g., a kitten that is becoming a full-fledged adult cat or the seed that is sprouting and now on its way to becoming a plant or a tree. I mean even things that are produced for the sake of some other thing (as, e.g., tools) have a meaningful existence in relation to the purposeful activity that they are produced for.

Therefore, why should we assume that the course of nature - including even such grand and complex processes as evolution - is not the generation and production of various things that likewise all at least have some value even if only as an intermediary or a derivative one acquired by reference to something else? For nature both produces and generates things. Therefore it would at least seem nothing more than mere opinion to assert that all of this activity is necessarily meaningless.

Moreover I’m sure,* e.g.*, that a cat might think - that is if a cat could think - that small-talk, politeness, courtesies and the like were all meaningless wastes of time; after all, sleeping and eating are so much better ways of investing your time (presumably at least if you’re a cat); but - notwithstanding the apparent pointlessness of such things from the perspective of something that cannot understand the purpose of the activity - the activity is purposeful, meaningful.

Most obviously, however, is the case of a man who happens to be knocked unconscious. He does not become “meaningless” as a consequence; and again, a mother does not think her child is “meaningless” because the child is probably not yet “conscious” in her womb.
 
Do you think your **only **choice is between wine or poison? :ehh:
I meant, when conscious mind or in another word logical thinking cannot decide in a situation with at least two options then the decision is left to subconscious mind. We don’t know how a decision is made there. There could be many exchange of thoughts between two mind depending on complexity of situation but we can arrange experiments at which only subconsciousness plays the dominant role as it was explained in the experiment.
 
A basic philosophical position in the Aristetolian-Thomist tradition is the notion of immanent teleology. Things “aim to” or “point to” the fulfilling of their potentialities. It is not mere efficient or formal causes at work here; telos is something “in-built” in the nature of things. Of course, just because Aquinas, Aristotle or other important thinkers defended final causes does not necessarily mean they were correct. And in fact this notion has been challenged by people like Duns Scotus (who spoke of final causes as “a flight towards fantasy”), Cardinal Cajetan, Francisco Suarez and William of Ockham.

There are at least three reasons to doubt immanent telos:

1-Parsimony. Final causes do not add anything over and above what efficient causes can do. Efficient causes are enough to do the work of immanent telos. The latter is an extra assumption we can do without.

2-Only rational self-movers can have a purpose. What is necessary for rational beings to act for the sake of an end? Rationality, we can act for the sake of an end and order the means to achieve it. That we’re self-movers runs counter to another Thomist/Aristetolian belief, but I will not address this particular issue here. I’ll merely point out that nature lacks rationality and cannot will an end. Does lack of rationality disprove immanent teleology? Maybe not, but it suggests something else, namely, It suggests that assigning ends to non-rational nature is a category mistake: projecting our ability to conciously seeks some ends to non-concnious nature.

3- Sometimes it is said that final causes are needed explain the apparent purpossiveness of nature, but this is no true: God can will some ends and order the means to achieve it without need to appeal to immanent teleology.

Is teleology useless, then? No, teleological talk can be useful as explanations of how efficient causes operate, but not as an extra category that is intrinsic to nature.

Thoughts?
There is no reason to doubt either Thomas or Aristotle. If irrational beings and inanimate beings lack teleology how do you explain that they always or nearly always operate according to given patterns and as though they had the " intention " of acting for an end?

Not only this, how could you reconcile the lack of teleogy with the fact that God guides the universe toward its proper end. The only solution would be for God to be the immediate casual agent in every act that takes place. But this seems to disagree with what we observe in nature. It appears that everything has its own nautre and governs its own activies accordingly.

Perhaps when we are talking about systems like the movement of the heavenly bodies or forces such as gravity and weather systems, God takes a more direct hand. But I see no reason to doubt that teleological properties inherent in the nature of things.

Linus2nd
Linus2nd
 
With the exception of the post above, this thread seems to have woefully lost its course.
 
I meant, when conscious mind or in another word logical thinking cannot decide in a situation with at least two options then the decision is left to subconscious mind. We don’t know how a decision is made there.
This seems to be just a duplication of minds. In this system we would possess two different and distinct minds. Presumably “making a decision” requires intentionality and some power of deliberation; but I am not aware of my subconscious in your situation; it, however, would need in some way to be quite aware of me or at least my situation if it is going to proceed to make a decision for me. Again in this situation it would not really be me at all that does the choosing - that has implications for the law.
 
This seems to be just a duplication of minds. In this system we would possess two different and distinct minds. Presumably “making a decision” requires intentionality and some power of deliberation; but I am not aware of my subconscious in your situation; it, however, would need in some way to be quite aware of me or at least my situation if it is going to proceed to make a decision for me. Again in this situation it would not really be me at all that does the choosing - that has implications for the law.
There could be many exchange of thoughts depending on the situation between two minds, but apparently the final decision is made by subconscious mind even if the situation with two outcomes has an obvious choice from conscious mind view.
 
There could be many exchange of thoughts depending on the situation between two minds, but apparently the final decision is made by subconscious mind even if the situation with two outcomes has an obvious choice from conscious mind view.
Still all sounds rather strange to me.

Indeed, the whole idea of a subconscious decision sounds rather like an oxymoron: a decision not consciously made probably would not count as a “decision” at all for most people. Such a thing sounds rather more like the result of instinct or habit than “mind”; but presumably all mind needs in some sense to be conscious especially if it is going to be able to “make a decision”, which ordinarily involves a discrimination and a judgement. So the subconscious mind itself would need to be in some sense conscious to be aware of the possibilities to choose from and choose one such possibility that results in an action. But here we find still more problems, because who is to say at this point that the subconscious mind itself doesn’t have a subconscious mind? Certainly it cannot be excluded as a possibility at this point, seeing as any attempt to do so would threaten the original idea of a subconscious mind in the first place.

However, it should be obvious that actions must have some origin and the decision making process cannot proceed to infinity (otherwise no action would ever result). Still, we are wondering just how many minds a man can seriously be said to have.
 
There could be many exchange of thoughts depending on the situation between two minds, but apparently the final decision is made by subconscious mind even if the situation with two outcomes has an obvious choice from conscious mind view.
A person has only one mind! (Occam’s Razor.)
 
A person has only one mind! (Occam’s Razor.)
We all know that we have two conscious and subconscious minds. Logical thinking and wisdom are from consciousness mind and intuition and instinct are from subconsciousness to best of my understanding.
 
We all know that we have two conscious and subconscious minds. Logical thinking and wisdom are from consciousness mind and intuition and instinct are from subconsciousness to best of my understanding.
We all know that our mind is only aware of physical reality when we are awake. It does not cease to exist when we are asleep or unconscious.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top