Against Mary - "Totus tuus, Mary"

  • Thread starter Thread starter zemi
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
jabelltulsa said:
I know we are way past this, but I had to respond:

She willingly participated in the Incarnation of our Lord and Savior.

Through Mary, Christ came into this world. No one else has done more to bring Christ closer to us.
Click to expand...
Mary was used to bring Christ into the world but she was not the one who brings us closer to Christ. That honor goes to the writers of scripture. It is the scriptures that tell us about Christ and not Mary.
 
justasking4 said:
Mary was used to bring Christ into the world but she was not the one who brings us closer to Christ. That honor goes to the writers of scripture. It is the scriptures that tell us about Christ and not Mary.
Click to expand...
And where do you suppose that St Luke got his information about Jesus’ Incarnation, Birth and Childhood?
Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things which have been accomplished among us, [2] just as they were delivered to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word, [3] it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent The-oph’ilus, [4] that you may know the truth concerning the things of which you have been informed… . And he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart.
Click to expand...
 
justasking4 said:
The NT never implies nor state that she is the mother of the church.
Click to expand...
Matthew1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel,” which means “God is with us.”

Luke1:43 And how does this happen to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Luke1:35 And the angel said to her in reply, “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, Son of God.”
 
justasking4 said:
Mary was used to bring Christ into the world but she was not the one who brings us closer to Christ. That honor goes to the writers of scripture. It is the scriptures that tell us about Christ and not Mary.
Click to expand...
So, if I follow your logic full circle, then it is the Catholic Church that has brought you closer to Christ, since it canonized the Scripture, and preserved it through the years since.👍
 
justasking4 said:
Mary was used to bring Christ into the world but she was not the one who brings us closer to Christ. That honor goes to the writers of scripture. It is the scriptures that tell us about Christ and not Mary.
Click to expand...
Unfortunatelly, that was not even what Luther and other reformers thought and taught. But I surely accept that as your interpretation 😉

(for a proof look at this post HERE)
 
Originally Posted by justasking4
Mary was used to bring Christ into the world but she was not the one who brings us closer to Christ. That honor goes to the writers of scripture. It is the scriptures that tell us about Christ and not Mary.
Click to expand...
Good golly. The contortions of this are astonishing. Imagine, it’s not the woman who actually bore and raised the Christ, whose testimony and whose actions are recorded in Scripture whom we have to thank and whose witness we follow --instead, we can completely bypass her and go to ‘the writers of Scripture’. . .whom, I cannot fail to notice, you do not even give the courtesy of naming as “Saint” and whom, indeed, you take pains to castigate and denigrate (in the case of St. Peter, denying him the role Christ gave him).
 
justasking4 said:
All of these doctrines are well grounded in the scriptures. The marian doctrines are not.

There was some dispute on what this meant. Was this title saying something primarily about Mary or about Christ? I don’t dispute that God chose her to bring Christ into the world by making it possible for Christ to have a human body. What i do dispute are the teachings of the catholic that add on so much more to her that the scriptures never do.

We must do that. Even you have to pick and chose what you believe your church teaches and reject other teachings. Just take Mary’s supposed sinlessness. Some fathers thought she sinned. Others not. Which will you chose to believe?
Click to expand...
Could you please provide examples of these “fathers” who believed Mary was a sinner?
 
jabelltulsa said:
So, if I follow your logic full circle, then it is the Catholic Church that has brought you closer to Christ, since it canonized the Scripture, and preserved it through the years since.👍
Click to expand...
Not so. It is the scriptures that predate the church. It is the scriptures alone that are inspired-inerrant and not the church.
 
justasking4 said:
Not so. It is the scriptures that predate the church. It is the scriptures alone that are inspired-inerrant and not the church.
Click to expand...
The Church started at Pentecost. The first New Testament Scriptures were written a few decades later.
 
kdmay68 said:
Could you please provide examples of these “fathers” who believed Mary was a sinner?
Click to expand...
This is what i found–Origen, Chrysostom, Cyril of Alexandria, Basil. Even Anselm held Mary was born with original sin.
 
Joe_Kelley said:
The Church started at Pentecost. The first New Testament Scriptures were written a few decades later.
Click to expand...
That may be true of the written scripture but not the oral teachings of the apostles which became the written NT
 
zemi said:
Unfortunatelly, that was not even what Luther and other reformers thought and taught. But I surely accept that as your interpretation 😉

(for a proof look at this post HERE)
Click to expand...
I’m not concerned what Luter taught but what do the Scriptures say.
 
zemi;2574765]Thanks.
Click to expand...
I believe in the opposite as you do in every case. Because the Church says so? Well…that would be a very good argument itself, because my studies lead me to conclude that the RCC has the every right to interpret the Scripture and moreover, that it interprets it always infallibly. But without making this point I would argue that I’ve looked upon the evidence and counter-evidence for the “Catholic” claims and I must say that they are the most reasonable conclusions.
Click to expand...
Are you aware your church has never interpreted a single of verse of scripture?
You can call me biased (I’m not saying you are) but apart that that would make no point to your argument I at first didn’t understand a lot of RCC’s tachings. I just thought “The Church said so. Period.” But I did not know about “why” the Church teaches so. I remember how e.g. Richard Dawkins (most probably the most famous and popularized atheist nowadays) really stupidly and childishly argued in one of his videos that Pius XII just closed himself in a room, then came out and infallibly proclaimed that Mary was assumed and asked then (Dawkins) how reasonable this really is?! Well, without looking at the evidence… I would say it looks just like this…
Click to expand...
 
justasking4 said:
This is what i found–Origen, Chrysostom, Cyril of Alexandria, Basil. Even Anselm held Mary was born with original sin.
Click to expand...
Could you provide me with the works where it is? I am familiar with Crysostom but also with the fact that the Church Fathers didn’t follow this reasoning and viewed Mary all the time as the New Eve. That is something you have to admit. I’d like to see their quotes in context.

The point of the parallel among other things was:

first Eve sinned → first Adam also
Jesus the second Adam didn’t sin → Mary the second Eve did neither
 
justasking4 said:
Are you aware your church has never interpreted a single of verse of scripture?
Click to expand...
You’re right if your talking about a book issued by a Pope called “Interpretations of every verse in the Bible according to the Catholic Church”. There never was one. On the other hand, are you aware that every doctrine of the Catholic Church is stemmed and grounded in the Scriptures? (I know you refuse to accept that…)
 
justasking4 said:
Are you aware your church has never interpreted a single of verse of scripture?
Click to expand...
That is absolutely false. The Church has been interpreting Sacred Scripture for 2000 years. I would ask that you qualify what you just said.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top