Against Mary - "Totus tuus, Mary"

[rtconstant]

You are catholic and so this is what you have been told and believe. I do not hold these beliefs because there would be a clue to this in the scripture. I could go and say that the sky was purple all throughout that time but since there is no way to prove it I can just say that this has been passed on through the line and so that is why I believe it. I think that if the sky had been purple back then it would mention it SOMEWHERE in scripture or even hint to it.

Why would you assume that? I mean seriously that’s a rather large assertion. You have essentially said “if it is so then it would be mentioned in the Scripture” do you really believe that?

Without even bothering to note the natural problems with the above assertion. One would also have to wonder at the divine plan to trust the only flawless route to Truth to text that wouldn’t even be available to the average believer until over a thousand years latter. What’s more it seems strange that a text that essentially records the spoken writings of Christ preserved through His Apostles and their followers by word of mouth would be considered more accurate than the spoken words it is recording.

Very strange.

The Bible itself is an outgrowth of the teachings of Christ and His Church not vice versa.

 

[zemi]

What??? a 100% catholic didnt sound like it.
GraceAngel.

The objection posed didn’t come from me. It was made here for the sake of the discussion.

 

[zemi]

You are catholic and so this is what you have been told and believe. I do not hold these beliefs because there would be a clue to this in the scripture. I could go and say that the sky was purple all throughout that time but since there is no way to prove it I can just say that this has been passed on through the line and so that is why I believe it. I think that if the sky had been purple back then it would mention it SOMEWHERE in scripture or even hint to it.

Mary may not have called ‘mother’ by Christ directly in scripture BUT scripture itself calls her His mother. Scripture never calls her ‘Queen’ directly.

Singinbeauty,

a quick lesson from logic (once we use this word much in this discussion )

This is not an argument. You have to address the argument itself. I could say the same of you, couldn’t I? That you were not raised non-Catholic and so not to believe these things.

Technically this is called a circumstantial ad-hominem argument i.e. when you’re saying one believes something only because he has every inclination or is predisposed to hold that belief

Ad hominem circumstantial involves pointing out that someone is in circumstances such that he is disposed to take a particular position. Essentially, ad hominem circumstantial constitutes an attack on the bias of a person. The reason that this is fallacious is that pointing out that one’s opponent is disposed to make a certain argument does not make the argument, from a logical point of view, any less credible; this overlaps with the genetic fallacy (an argument that a claim is incorrect due to its source).

(definition from wikipedia)

 

[zemi]

Mary may not have called ‘mother’ by Christ directly in scripture BUT scripture itself calls her His mother. Scripture never calls her ‘Queen’ directly.

We have very good reasons to call her so. Just as we have a very good reason e.g. to call the Holy Spirit God (also not mentioned directly in the Bible). This was not established until 381.

If you are interested in it, read THIS Scott Hahn’s article - come especially to the part titled “Mary as Queen Mother”.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Hold up there, sister … You are being very judgmental about my beliefs. My beliefs come from studying Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, prayer, hope, and, yes, The One True Church that Christ Himself left us.

Where do your beliefs come from? I would say that you open the Bible and read whatever you want from it. Would this be the same Bible written and canonized by the Church that teaches me? I think so! So, you believe in the Bible, but you don’t believe in the people who brought it? After all, THEY were given the Keys to the Kingdom. They were given the power to forgive (and retain) sin. Christ told them that they had the power to Bind and Loosen, and that He would honor that in Heaven.

Don’t be so quick to think that I just take what the Church says without seeking to understand on my own - I have to do this for it to be truly my faith.

No I believe what I believe through study and what I have been told. I then take what I have been told and study it against scripture. I didn’t come to my belief lightly either…

 

[zemi]

No I believe what I believe through study and what I have been told. I then take what I have been told and study it against scripture. I didn’t come to my belief lightly either…

Singinbeauty,

hmm. Do you believe Mary was

1. Theotokos
2. Perpetual Virgin
3. Immaculatelly conceived
4. Assumed

?

What were you told and came up with your studying?

 

[Singinbeauty]

Singinbeauty,

hmm. Do you believe Mary was

1. Theotokos
2. Perpetual Virgin
3. Immaculatelly conceived
4. Assumed

?

What were you told and came up with your studying?

Theotokos - This is the ‘Mother of God’ thing right? Well, Mother of God? No. Mother of Christ? Yes.

Perpetual Virgin - Makes no nevermind to me because I believe it wouldn’t have made her dirty or blemished to do so. I would have to err on the side of probably not but I do not know.

Immaculately Conceived - No. I do not believe that Mary was spared from the original sin. It would taint, in my opinion, the reason that God chose to come to this earth in human form. He arrived like the rest of us. With an imperfect mother.

Assumed - No, I do not believe that Mary was assumed to Heaven body and soul. Where did this belief come from? Why isn’t it mentioned in the bible since all other cases were?

Again, what does this have to do with my relationship with Christ? Nothing. So why cry over it and argue?

 

[zemi]

Theotokos - This is the ‘Mother of God’ thing right? Well, Mother of God? No. Mother of Christ? Yes.

Perpetual Virgin - Makes no nevermind to me because I believe it wouldn’t have made her dirty or blemished to do so. I would have to err on the side of probably not but I do not know.

Immaculately Conceived - No. I do not believe that Mary was spared from the original sin. It would taint, in my opinion, the reason that God chose to come to this earth in human form. He arrived like the rest of us. With an imperfect mother.

Assumed - No, I do not believe that Mary was assumed to Heaven body and soul. Where did this belief come from? Why isn’t it mentioned in the bible since all other cases were?

Again, what does this have to do with my relationship with Christ? Nothing. So why cry over it and argue?

Thanks.

I believe in the opposite as you do in every case. Because the Church says so? Well…that would be a very good argument itself, because my studies lead me to conclude that the RCC has the every right to interpret the Scripture and moreover, that it interprets it always infallibly. But without making this point I would argue that I’ve looked upon the evidence and counter-evidence for the “Catholic” claims and I must say that they are the most reasonable conclusions.

You can call me biased (I’m not saying you are) but apart that that would make no point to your argument I at first didn’t understand a lot of RCC’s tachings. I just thought “The Church said so. Period.” But I did not know about “why” the Church teaches so. I remember how e.g. Richard Dawkins (most probably the most famous and popularized atheist nowadays) really stupidly and childishly argued in one of his videos that Pius XII just closed himself in a room, then came out and infallibly proclaimed that Mary was assumed and asked then (Dawkins) how reasonable this really is?! Well, without looking at the evidence… I would say it looks just like this…

 

[jpaul]

I just wonder what you would have to say I really heard it recently.

Peace and all-good!

The Blessed Virgin Mary will always lead us towards her son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

At the cross, our Lord Jesus Christ gave to us her beloved mother, to be our spiritual mother (see John 19: 27).

Study the lives of the saints along the ages, they have great devotions to the mother of God.

Ave Maria!

jpaul

 

[zemi]

Again, what does this have to do with my relationship with Christ? Nothing. So why cry over it and argue?

What if it was not true after all? What if Mary and all the Saints could bring you closer to Jesus? No Catholic is obliged to avail himself/herself of Mary. But the answer to “Why Mary? Why saints?” question is simple. The answer is “Jesus”. It’s all christological. Nothing centers on Mary (“Do whatever he tells you” in Cana). She’s just a means to the end. If you’ve heard otherwise, this is not the Catholic postition.

And so why trust it EVEN if it had nothing to do with Jesus? Well… I would say the best answer simply is that the reason is why we believe all the other things in our life - because it is true.

In Scripture we have all the *salvific *truth (necessary needed for salvation). However, the Catohlic position is that it does not contain all the *theological *truth. So why believe it? Because the truth sets us free and makes us Jesus’ disciples (Jn 8,31-32).

 

[reluctant_saint]

Theotokos - This is the ‘Mother of God’ thing right? Well, Mother of God? No. Mother of Christ? Yes.

Singinbeauty, this is exactly what Nestorius said back in the 5th century, but all the other Church Fathers, led by Cyril of Alexandria, condemned him. The Church said you cannot separate Jesus the Christ from Jesus the Second person of the Holy Trinity. The Divinity of Christ is perfect bonded with the humanity of Christ such that Jesus is only one person, and that person is divine. This is known as the Hypostatic Union. Look at it this way.

In God there are three persons, but yet there is only one God. So also in Jesus there are two natures, human and divine, but there is only one person. The person of Jesus is the same person as the second person of the Holy Trinity. Thus the Early Church Fathers asserted that one must never speak of Jesus as a human person. He had a human intellect, a human will, and a human body and mind, but these were all perfectly united to his divine intellect, mind and will, so that the real subject of action (a person being a subject of action) is divine.

This is actually the reason why the Church Fathers called Mary the Theotokos. If it is established that Mary is the Theotokos, then the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union becomes more ingrained in Christian doctrine. Thus the real purpose behind this Marian doctrine is not anything specific to Mary, but it was made to protect the doctrine of Christ’s incarnation and how that incarnation needs to be understood. Thus there is a real Christological, as opposed to Marian, purpose behind this doctrine.

Having said that, we must remember that the word Theotokos is more accurately translated as “bearer of God” rather than “mother of God.” It in no way implies that she is in someway equal to or greater than God.

The Catholic Church has a more holistic view of Christ, and from this concept of the oneness of Christ, which Protestant theologies tend to implicity deny, our beliefs about Mary arise.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Having said that, we must remember that the word Theotokos is more accurately translated as “bearer of God” rather than “mother of God.” It in no way implies that she is in someway equal to or greater than God.

This I agree with. Thank you for clearing that up.

 

[Singinbeauty]

What if it was not true after all? What if Mary and all the Saints could bring you closer to Jesus? No Catholic is obliged to avail himself/herself of Mary. But the answer to “Why Mary? Why saints?” question is simple. The answer is “Jesus”. It’s all christological. Nothing centers on Mary (“Do whatever he tells you” in Cana). She’s just a means to the end. If you’ve heard otherwise, this is not the Catholic postition.

But you see, I can go STRAIGHT to Christ. I do not need His earthly mother or any other mere humans to do so. You focus a lot on the wedding but is there any other time that she tells Jesus to do anything? Not that I know of. There is no time that I can see where she led the disciples either or that they put her in a higher position.

I appreciate Mary. I really do. She is beautiful woman who laid down her life so that we may have Christ. She did what God asked her with humbleness and faithfulness. She was blessed beyond what any of us will ever experience. I mean, the chance to bear God here on earth and watch Him grow to be a man is incredible. The moment she saw Him die must have made her want to die inside also. I can’t imagine what it is like to watch your child die, especially such a violent death.

But you see, in THAT way she gave Christ to all of us the moment He died for ALL of us. And (catholics, are you ready for this? ) I have Mary to thank. For everytime I do pray to God and thank Him for the gift bestowed upon me at the moment of Christ’s death I have to remember the sacrifice that she made to get Him on earth.

I think of Mary as a woman, just like me. Who had no choice but to follow God because every fiber in her being told her to. You see, to me, the virgin birth means so much because she WAS just like me. A mere human, born of original sin who knew the God was using her for something great. To imagine that God could use ME for something to bring His Word to this world is nothing less than awesome. I just hope that I can be as willing as she when He comes a-callin’.

 

[Singinbeauty]

zemi:

And so why trust it EVEN if it had nothing to do with Jesus? Well… I would say the best answer simply is that the reason is why we believe all the other things in our life - because it is true.

In Scripture we have all the *salvific *truth (necessary needed for salvation). However, the Catohlic position is that it does not contain all the *theological *truth. So why believe it? Because the truth sets us free and makes us Jesus’ disciples (Jn 8,31-32).

But the scripture also tells us to test EVERYTHING. If all you have is humans telling you to believe it and there is nothing in scripture to back it up how in the world are you supposed to test it?

 

[LilyM]

But you see, I can go STRAIGHT to Christ. I do not need His earthly mother or any other mere humans to do so. You focus a lot on the wedding but is there any other time that she tells Jesus to do anything? Not that I know of. There is no time that I can see where she led the disciples either or that they put her in a higher position.

I appreciate Mary. I really do. She is beautiful woman who laid down her life so that we may have Christ. She did what God asked her with humbleness and faithfulness. She was blessed beyond what any of us will ever experience. I mean, the chance to bear God here on earth and watch Him grow to be a man is incredible. The moment she saw Him die must have made her want to die inside also. I can’t imagine what it is like to watch your child die, especially such a violent death.

But you see, in THAT way she gave Christ to all of us the moment He died for ALL of us. And (catholics, are you ready for this? ) I have Mary to thank. For everytime I do pray to God and thank Him for the gift bestowed upon me at the moment of Christ’s death I have to remember the sacrifice that she made to get Him on earth.

I think of Mary as a woman, just like me. Who had no choice but to follow God because every fiber in her being told her to. You see, to me, the virgin birth means so much because she WAS just like me. A mere human, born of original sin who knew the God was using her for something great. To imagine that God could use ME for something to bring His Word to this world is nothing less than awesome. I just hope that I can be as willing as she when He comes a-callin’.

So Mary gave you Christ and it’s never occurred to you to thank HER for bringing you that gift as well as thanking the Father??? How incredibly rude! If you can dare to call her a woman like yourself then you appreciate nothing of the magnitude of what she did.

How would you like it if you slaved away all year alongside your husband to earn money for a present for your child and the child knows it’s from both of you but just says ‘thanks, Dad’?!?

And if you think you’re ever in a million years going to be called upon to bear and raise God the Son, the Saviour of Mankind - have Him choose to be totally dependent upon you for every last thing for months and years. Have God Himself take His flesh and His entire human nature entirely from you as He did from Mary - you’ve got another think coming.

You’ll never be Mary, nor half of Mary. Neither will I. THAT is how important her task was.

 

[Singinbeauty]

So Mary gave you Christ and it’s never occurred to you to thank HER for bringing you that gift as well as thanking the Father??? How incredibly rude! If you can dare to call her a woman like yourself then you appreciate nothing of the magnitude of what she did.

Since I don’t believe she can hear me, no, it has never occured to me to thank her in this life. I thank God FOR her but not her. I will do that in Heaven!

How would you like it if you slaved away all year alongside your husband to earn money for a present for your child and the child knows it’s from both of you but just says ‘thanks, Dad’?!?

But I am human hun… I am imperfect. Now that Mary is in Heaven I highly doubt she cares what attention is paid to her. Only to her son.

And if you think you’re ever in a million years going to be called upon to bear and raise God the Son, the Saviour of Mankind - have Him choose to be totally dependent upon you for every last thing for months and years. Have God Himself take His flesh and His entire human nature entirely from you as He did from Mary - you’ve got another think coming.

Whoa! Slow down the angry horse woman! Geez… So you know me so well to think that God could never use me for something great in His perfect plan eh? What’s that about not judging??? I am so glad you aren’t God because the hate in your writing towards me gives me chills. God can and does use anyone He chooses to bring around His perfect plan. He used a poor virgin girl to bring Himself to earth. I may not get that part (because of course it is already taken) but it doesn’t mean that He doesn’t have something great in store for me. I think that it means MORE that Mary was a human girl like you and me. Because even though she had all the same imperfections she still put it all aside for God. That’s all I am saying.

You’ll never be Mary, nor half of Mary. Neither will I. THAT is how important her task was.

No, I won’t be Mary. I can’t be because God created me who I am. But it doesn’t mean that God can’t use me too…

 

[zemi]

But you see, I can go STRAIGHT to Christ. I do not need His earthly mother or any other mere humans to do so. You focus a lot on the wedding but is there any other time that she tells Jesus to do anything? Not that I know of. There is no time that I can see where she led the disciples either or that they put her in a higher position.

I do understand you with that “I can go straight to Christ” thing. I knew this one very well.

Praying straight to God****

Another common argument against prayers to saints is the objection, “Why pray to the saints when you can go straight to God?”

Protestants argue that verses such as these imply we should go only to God for our needs: “Through [Jesus] we both have access in one Spirit to the Father” (Eph. 2:18); “Let us confidently approach the throne of grace to receive mercy and to find grace for timely help” (Heb. 4:16); “We have one who speaks to the Father in our defense, Jesus Christ, the righteous one” (1 John 2:1). They feel that asking the saints for prayer is superfluous since, through Jesus, we now have a direct line to God. No “helpers” are necessary.

Sometimes this argument takes the form of an analogy: “If you had complete, unrestricted access to the President of the United States and could see him whenever you had a complaint or needed a favor, why waste your time going to see the Secretary of State or the Chief of Staff when you could go directly into the Oval Office and get what you want from the man who makes the decisions?”

In other words, why ask the saints to pester God for you (as though they can convince him to do things and you can’t), when God loves you and wants to give you good things if you just ask him?

This is an incredibly obtuse line of reasoning. Of course God wants us to ask him for things directly - and we do - but he also wants us to ask each other for prayers (1 Tim. 2:1-3). What Protestant, when asked for prayer by a fellow Christian, would whirl on his heel and snarl, “How unbiblical! Why ask me to pray for you when you can go directly to God and ask him yourself?” Protestants realize that sharing in Christ’s mediatorship on earth by intercessory prayer is no more “unbiblical” than sharing in Christ’s priesthood or kingship or judgeship.

Many Protestants delight in being asked for intercessory prayer,(Isn’t it reasonable to imagine the saints are just as delighted when asked for their prayers?) and they actively encourage it in others, especially in those they consider “prayer warriors,” righteous Christians renowned for the efficacy of their prayers. (“The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful” [James 5:16]). Christians in heaven are perfected in righteousness. Should their prayers be discounted? To ignore their role as “prayer warriors” makes no scriptural sense.

From This Rock 1992/09

If you know if the Catholic stance on this is really completely scriptural, I’m sure you will read the whole article. I haven’t seen a better one about praying to Mary+saints than this one. Read it all if you have time…

I would say - feel free to reject the Catholic teaching on this. But read this article first. People usually only see “what” the RCC teaches, not “why”. I would very much plead you to know the “whys” and then reject it.

 

[LilyM]

Since I don’t believe she can hear me, no, it has never occured to me to thank her in this life. I thank God FOR her but not her. I will do that in Heaven!

God is God of the LIVING, not of the dead. Christ said so. Those who die bodily in God are every bit as alive as you or I, hence Moses and Elijah being able to appear to Jesus and talk about the events that were about to happen to Him on earth! They weren’t just existing in a haze of myopic ‘me n God’ bliss.

Mary is as alive as you or I. You can and should thank her, right now!

But I am human hun… I am imperfect. Now that Mary is in Heaven I highly doubt she cares what attention is paid to her. Only to her son.

YOU are part of the body of Christ as she is - part of Him. You and she are still connected through the Head, Christ. She cares for and can communicate with all members of the Body, as you should too.

No, I won’t be Mary. I can’t be because God created me who I am. But it doesn’t mean that God can’t use me too…

It’s nothing close to hate, it’s perspective. Of course God can and does use you, me and everyone. It’s a question of what we can be used for.

There was only one Incarnation hun, that ain’t gonna happen again. Christ becoming man in order to redeem the world was, is and will be the greatest and most significant event in human history. Don’t you believe so???

You and I weren’t part of it and are never going to be part of something that important, let’s face it. Whereas Mary was. Though of course we will have our own important God-given plans to fulfil and our own salvation to work out.

 

[DebChris]

I noticed the signoff of a poster on one of the other threads.
“If you want to find Jesus, follow his mother. You will find them together Mother and Child.”
Mary was with her son throughout much of his ministry. It is she who mentioned the shortage of wine at Cana where he worked his first miracle. She was at the Last Supper and on the Via Delorosa.
The main dispute seems to be, where do we find truth if not strictly from the Bible as written? A question along those same lines is, where does the Bible, as opposed to another book, draw its authority? Who determined which books should or should not be included?
Paul tells Timothy that all scripture is good for instruction and to"…remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, and that from infancy you have known the sacred scriptures"(2Tim3:14-15).
When the Church speaks about Tradition, it differentiates between that which has been handed to us from the Apostles and the various traditions that may develop over time in various regions. St. Paul writes that we are to “…stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught.”(2Thessalonians3:15)
It may be that you will not find a specific reference to the Assumption, for instance, in Scripture. Nevertheless even the earliest Church fathers discussed this mystery. It is held not only by Roman Catholics but by members of the Eastern Orthodox Churches as well. We hold that individually all will be transformed, body and soul, into the new life won for us by the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ. What is there to keep us from believing that God would raise Mary after “she completed the course of her earthly life (PiusXII)”?
I see comments that the Mary whom Catholics honor is not the Mary of the Bible. If not, then who is she? Mary, untouched by man, conceived of the Holy Spirit. Jesus, as her son, was obedient to her. If we dishonor a man’s mother, do we not also dishonor the man? If we dishonor Mary, are we not also dishonoring God who chose Mary as the Vessel to carry the Saviour of us all?
The Magisterium “teaches only what has been handed on to it…with the help of the Holy Spirit.”(CCC86)
“…you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.”(1Tim3:15)

 

[zemi]

But the scripture also tells us to test EVERYTHING. If all you have is humans telling you to believe it and there is nothing in scripture to back it up how in the world are you supposed to test it?

I have tested it and I am still learning more every day. It all makes perfect sense.

There is a lot of scripural ground for this - for every Marian doctrine. We can say that everything has been being tested since the very early Church. All the Church Fathers and big thinkers during the history…

You would have problems if we had to test EVERYTHING against the Scripture. For instance, how would you test the biblical canon according to the Scripture (that question would just made no sense as before the end of the 4th century there was no canon)? According to this reasoning, God doesn’t want us to know the canon of the Bible (not in the Bible at all), doesn’t want us to know the Holy Spirit is God (not explicitly in the Bible) etc. and wants us to concentrate only on Jesus. But how would we know anything about Jesus if there weren’t for the canon that is not in the Bible? (I know of J. Flavius and Pliny the Younger etc but with these guys you would just know that Jesus existed)

The only reasonable conclusion is that there are certain things that a certain authority (the Church) can decide on that are not explicitly in the Bible (canon isn’t at all). And that is very much scriptural. You would came across some difficulties if you were claiming the opposite which yo ucan see also from the biblical canon example.

I’m very confident to say every Catholic teaching, including the Marian doctrines, make absolutelly perfect sense.