Age gaps in dating/marriage - how far would you go/have gone?

[ToeInTheWater]

Thanks for all the replies! BTW, for those who did marry men who are 15-20 years older, I am not trying to question your relationships at all. Just that I think that a large age gap does present challenges to a relationship that might not be present with smaller age gaps. But of course smaller age gap relationships can have challenges as well.

Xantippe, just FYI re Emma, as I recall Mr. Knightley was actually pretty rich himself, I think he may actually have been richer than Emma. But he did consider his age to be a liability, and assumed Emma was in love with Frank Churchill, a man much closer to her age. As for Marianne and Col. Brandon, certainly Brandon’s age was brought up as a problem in-universe, in this case he really was old enough to be her father, as he actually has a “stepdaughter” around Marianne’s age.

Anyway, I think those examples show that even in a era in which age gaps of 10-20 years were more common and acceptable, people did see such an “old enough to be her father” age gap as a challenge even back then; perhaps not as much as people do now, but they weren’t considered “ho-hum, nothing to see here” either.

On the other hand, the age gaps between Elizabeth Bennett and Mr. Darcy (she is 20, he is 28), seems to be not at all an issue, I think Edmund and Fanny had a similar age gap, and it seems most of the other heroines wind up with men 5-6 years their senior. Which makes sense because most men weren’t considered “eligible” for marriage until at least after they reached the age of majority, and wouldn’t even be looking for a bride until then. I don’t think such age gaps would be considered problematic even in modern times.

I also suppose that in more “traditional” societies, large age gaps are less of a problem, but then again, in such societies, wives are often seen NOT as equal partners in a relationship, but as subordinate to the husband, indeed some rad-trad types even now seem to see the wife’s role as almost a quasi-child, unquestioningly obeying her husband, and therefore, not really needing life experience and maturity. Or, the marriages are more for convenience, or even totally arranged, and compatibility between the spouses isn’t seen as important as in more “modern” cultures.

Interestingly, two of my aunts married men much older than themselves who were certainly old enough to be their fathers, and both were quite happy in the marriages, though unfortunately one of them hasn’t done too well by herself after her husband died in terms of managing her finances, as actually been victimized by con artists more than once, though certainly this has also happened to older widows whose husbands were closer to their age.

On the other hand, another aunt of mine married a man about ten years younger, something that was considered quite scandalous back then, but that aunt also had her own business at the time, and was much more independent than most women of that generation.

 

[EasterJoy]

… I was 26 when we met and became involved. so there was also the benefit that I had finished my undergraduate education, traveled quite a bit, and had been working since I was 15.

Huge. Another good sign is when your intended already has many other friends in your age group, works with many respected colleagues in your age group, or both. It is especially common to see someone with a good marriage to someone older come from a background where he or she was generally more comfortable with people in that age group than people his or her own age. (The older person who is trying to “be young” and defy his or her age by hanging around only with far younger people, rather than simply being comfortable with people of all ages, not so much.)

 

[Xantippe]

Xantippe, just FYI re Emma, as I recall Mr. Knightley was actually pretty rich himself, I think he may actually have been richer than Emma.

**I think the deal was that while he had lots of land but was cash poor, but Emma had cash money, and lots of it. (If I had my copy handy, I could verify this.)

So, from the purely material perspective, it was a match made in heaven.**

But he did consider his age to be a liability, and assumed Emma was in love with Frank Churchill, a man much closer to her age. As for Marianne and Col. Brandon, certainly Brandon’s age was brought up as a problem in-universe, in this case he really was old enough to be her father, as he actually has a “stepdaughter” around Marianne’s age.

Anyway, I think those examples show that even in a era in which age gaps of 10-20 years were more common and acceptable, people did see such an “old enough to be her father” age gap as a challenge even back then; perhaps not as much as people do now, but they weren’t considered “ho-hum, nothing to see here” either.

**Yep. My feeling is that in Jane Austen’s oeuvre, the ideal match (all things being equal) tends to be between a young woman of age (17+) and a man in his later 20s. One gets the feeling that a 20-year-old woman is regarded as being the peer of a late 20-something man (example: Elizabeth Bennet and Mr. Darcy). The 17 and 18-year-old heroines aren’t quite on equal footing with their older love interests (example: Northanger Abbey).

And one definitely feels that Lydia’s marriage at 15 is regarded with horror by Austen.
**

On the other hand, the age gaps between Elizabeth Bennett and Mr. Darcy (she is 20, he is 28), seems to be not at all an issue, I think Edmund and Fanny had a similar age gap, and it seems most of the other heroines wind up with men 5-6 years their senior. Which makes sense because most men weren’t considered “eligible” for marriage until at least after they reached the age of majority, and wouldn’t even be looking for a bride until then.

Right.

I don’t think such age gaps would be considered problematic even in modern times.

**I think college student/non-college student relationships do raise eyebrows, which is what the 20/28 relationship would be in our context.
**

I also suppose that in more “traditional” societies, large age gaps are less of a problem, but then again, in such societies, wives are often seen NOT as equal partners in a relationship, but as subordinate to the husband, indeed some rad-trad types even now seem to see the wife’s role as almost a quasi-child, unquestioningly obeying her husband, and therefore, not really needing life experience and maturity.

**I think that even in Pride and Prejudice, Lydia’s age is seen as a major liability.

Oh, and come to think of it, there are a couple of examples elsewhere in Jane Austen of young brides who seem discontented with their lot: Anne Eliot’s younger sister who is very immature (not unlike her husband) and unhappy with the burdens of young motherhood and Fanny Price’s mother. Fanny Price’s mother, especially, seems very ill-equipped for her life.

**

Or, the marriages are more for convenience, or even totally arranged, and compatibility between the spouses isn’t seen as important as in more “modern” cultures.

Interestingly, two of my aunts married men much older than themselves who were certainly old enough to be their fathers, and both were quite happy in the marriages, though unfortunately one of them hasn’t done too well by herself after her husband died in terms of managing her finances, as actually been victimized by con artists more than once, though certainly this has also happened to older widows whose husbands were closer to their age.

On the other hand, another aunt of mine married a man about ten years younger, something that was considered quite scandalous back then, but that aunt also had her own business at the time, and was much more independent than most women of that generation.

 

[mdleagedguy]

My wife is three years younger than me. We were married when I was 24 and she was 21. I once pondered the question of whether I would remarry if she passed away. I came to the conclusion it would be problematic. For a middle-aged person the pool of partners who are marriageable in the Catholic Church is much smaller than for a person in their twenties. A 45-50 year old widowed or single person could find plenty of divorced people of the same aged, but wouldn’t be able to marry them without an annulment. This would entail a lot of investment in time and emotion with uncertainty whether an annulment would be granted. There is a much larger pool of younger people who haven’t been married yet. And so the odds favor finding a person much younger with whom you are compatible. But this introduces the prospect of the younger partner dealing with health problems and a potential long widowhood. And so the ideal might be someone compatible near your age, but the reality is that the odds favor an outcome less than the ideal. This would mean lessening compatibility or a greater age gap. It seems it would be a trade off.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

My wife’s age and mine are less that three months different (both approaching 70), but her physical and mental health is equivalent to someone 15-20 years older, while mine is better than that of a lot of men 20 years younger. Chances are that she is going to predecease me. In the past, and here in rural Alabama, it wasn’t unusual for an older widower to marry a woman the same age as his own children; my own grandfather did that, as did one of his brothers.

I doubt that I would marry again if my wife were to predecease me, but if I were to seek marriage again, I would not be looking for a woman my own age; I would be looking for someone as healthy and active as I am, which means looking for someone in her 40s. There is an added benefit for a woman who would be married to me into my own old age; I have a federal pension, and when I die, whoever is married to me (provided we have been married for at least two years) would get 60% of my pension for the rest of her life

My own brother was in his mid-30s when he married for the first time, and he married a girl 15 years younger. They’re doing fine.

I’m experiencing the same thing. Though single, I’m just now old enough where I notice that nearly every woman within a few years of my age looks older than I do. Sometimes way older. Its seems only Asian women my age still look younger than they are. Dunno if that’s a function of the area I live in or what. Hence my target demographic for dating and marriage is several years younger though I don’t think I’d go for 15 or more years age difference.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Xantippe, that is a good point about Knightley being land-rich but cash-poor.

Now, to clarify, when I stated “I don’t think such age gaps would be considered problematic even in modern times” I wasn’t really thinking about the 8 year age gaps, but more, say, the 4 year age gap between Elinor and Edward (19 and 23), or Anne and Wentworth (also 19 and 23 when they first met). Jane and Bingley were almost the same age (22 and 23). And all of them are a few (or more, for Anne/Wentworth) years older than those initial ages when they actually marry.

Also, Charlotte Lucas was actually older than Mr. Collins (27 and 25), though granted, Austen treats that marriage as more of a satire on the plight of unmarried “spinsters” of Charlotte’s social class – it’s like, “look, Charlotte was so desperate, she actually married a guy who was both an idiot AND gasp younger than she was!”

So, I don’t know if I’d quite agree that Austen considered the ideal match to be “a young woman of age (17+) and a man in his later 20s”. This model fits Darcy/Elizabeth and Edmund/Fanny, and I suppose also Catherine/Tilney (17 and 26), as all of those couples had 8 year age gaps. But while we could argue that Elinor/Edward and Jane/Bingley are meant to be reasonably happy, but not ideal marriages, I’m pretty sure Anne/Wentworth was, and that winds up being a marriage between a 27 year old and 31 year old, which is quite acceptable even in modern society.

I also find it quite interesting that P+P, S+S, and Emma all end with a younger sister in a marriage with a larger age gap than the older sister, though this may just be a weird co-incidence. (Also might be true for Persuasion, though I don’t think we ever find out Charles Musgrove’s exact age; I even tried looking it up on the 'net, but didn’t find anything.)

I also suspect that the idea of an older man at first serving as more of a mentor/older brother figure to a younger woman, then later coming to see her as a romantic prospect, would be considered problematic, even borderline predatory, to most modern audiences. This is the case for both Emma/Knightley and Fanny/Edmund, though rather more the case for Emma/Knightley because the age gap is wider. Also, where Fanny/Edmund is concerned, Edmund does go away to school for a number of years, and actually comes off as rather immature for his age; he is certainly not portrayed as anywhere near the ideal gentleman that Knightley is.

Indeed, I find many modern readers think Fanny really could have done a lot better (though realistically she might not have any realistic options OTHER than Edmund or Henry Crawford, and certainly Edmund comes off better than Henry C!)

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I’m experiencing the same thing. Though single, I’m just now old enough where I notice that nearly every woman within a few years of my age looks older than I do. Sometimes way older. Its seems only Asian women my age still look younger than they are. Dunno if that’s a function of the area I live in or what. Hence my target demographic for dating and marriage is several years younger though I don’t think I’d go for 15 or more years age difference.

Why are you so opposed to being paired with an older woman? Why does that strike you as so objectionable, to the point that you don’t want a woman who even LOOKS older? Unless you are concerned that you would not remain attracted to an older woman as she gets even older? But this also makes me wonder, what’s so great about you that would override the handicap of being older than the women you are pursuing?

You know, come to think of it, I’d also LOVE to hear from people in relationships where the wife is actually older than the husband, as such an age gap seems even more taboo than the opposite. But as I mentioned, one of my aunts married a man about ten years younger. I also know a couple where the woman was in her early 20s and the man 19, and also a couple where the woman is past 40 and the man around 35.

ETA: And come to mention it, DaveBJ, are you implying that you are the ONLY 70 year old in existence who is as healthy and active as a 40 year old? Why are you dismissing the idea that there might be women closer to you in age who are also healthy and active?

 

[Bonnie]

You know, come to think of it, I’d also LOVE to hear from people in relationships where the wife is actually older than the husband, as such an age gap seems even more taboo than the opposite.

It is unusual in our culture - I’ve known only a couple of couples where the wife was older. One couple, she was almost 10 years older. But he died young of ALS. I have no idea how old her 2nd husband is. Another couple I’ve met (don’t know them but know the extended family), she’s about 10 or 12 years older, but don’t remember for sure. He adores her and treats her like a queen! They’ve been married for over 20 years now and still going strong.

In this country, women get called cougars if they have a relationship with a younger man. But it’s perfectly normal for the woman to be significantly younger than the man.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

Why are you so opposed to being paired with an older woman? Why does that strike you as so objectionable, to the point that you don’t want a woman who even LOOKS older? Unless you are concerned that you would not remain attracted to an older woman as she gets even older? But this also makes me wonder, what’s so great about you that would override the handicap of being older than the women you are pursuing?

You know, come to think of it, I’d also LOVE to hear from people in relationships where the wife is actually older than the husband, as such an age gap seems even more taboo than the opposite. But as I mentioned, one of my aunts married a man about ten years younger. I also know a couple where the woman was in her early 20s and the man 19, and also a couple where the woman is past 40 and the man around 35.

ETA: And come to mention it, DaveBJ, are you implying that you are the ONLY 70 year old in existence who is as healthy and active as a 40 year old? Why are you dismissing the idea that there might be women closer to you in age who are also healthy and active?

If men are successfully married to women older than themselves, that’s okay by me, I don’t have a problem with that if they don’t. I knew a guy who married someone 14 years older. Lost contact with them long ago so I don’t know how it’s working out for them now. My problem is that even if a woman my age or older is attractive, she almost invariably will not have my energy levels. I go social dancing a few times a month, that’s my fun hobby, it beats drinking in a bar and it keeps me out of trouble. Strictly anecdotal of course, but I’ve only met one woman my age and one woman older than me who could keep up, the woman my age is married so she’s off limits, the older woman is too close to my mother in age, she looks it and that is not attractive to me at all. Don’t get me wrong, I love my mother, but I’m not looking to date her friends and I will not apologize for that.

 

[Xantippe]

Also, Charlotte Lucas was actually older than Mr. Collins (27 and 25), though granted, Austen treats that marriage as more of a satire on the plight of unmarried “spinsters” of Charlotte’s social class – it’s like, “look, Charlotte was so desperate, she actually married a guy who was both an idiot AND gasp younger than she was!”

**But Mr. Collins acts WAY older than 25, doesn’t he?

He’s a very old 25.**

So, I don’t know if I’d quite agree that Austen considered the ideal match to be “a young woman of age (17+) and a man in his later 20s”. This model fits Darcy/Elizabeth and Edmund/Fanny, and I suppose also Catherine/Tilney (17 and 26), as all of those couples had 8 year age gaps.

**I meant 17 as the absolute rock bottom minimum for a woman in Jane Austen, rather than the ideal. I definitely get the vibe that she thinks that 20-22 is “prime time,” for a woman with 17 or 18 being acceptable, under the right circumstances. Fanny Price is an OLD 18–during the bulk of Mansfield Park, she’s actually much more mature than Edmund at least with regard to interpersonal savvy and insight into her fellow man. Come to think of it, Fanny/Edmund is sort of the reverse of Emma/Knightley. **

But while we could argue that Elinor/Edward and Jane/Bingley are meant to be reasonably happy, but not ideal marriages, I’m pretty sure Anne/Wentworth was, and that winds up being a marriage between a 27 year old and 31 year old, which is quite acceptable even in modern society.

I also find it quite interesting that P+P, S+S, and Emma all end with a younger sister in a marriage with a larger age gap than the older sister, though this may just be a weird co-incidence. (Also might be true for Persuasion, though I don’t think we ever find out Charles Musgrove’s exact age; I even tried looking it up on the 'net, but didn’t find anything.)

**Charles is the eldest son, right? He is pretty immature. **

I also suspect that the idea of an older man at first serving as more of a mentor/older brother figure to a younger woman, then later coming to see her as a romantic prospect, would be considered problematic, even borderline predatory, to most modern audiences. This is the case for both Emma/Knightley and Fanny/Edmund, though rather more the case for Emma/Knightley because the age gap is wider. Also, where Fanny/Edmund is concerned, Edmund does go away to school for a number of years, and actually comes off as rather immature for his age; he is certainly not portrayed as anywhere near the ideal gentleman that Knightley is.

**Edmund is very earnest, but not always wise. So he’s actually almost on the same spectrum as Mr. Collins, but kinder and with more polish. **

Indeed, I find many modern readers think Fanny really could have done a lot better (though realistically she might not have any realistic options OTHER than Edmund or Henry Crawford, and certainly Edmund comes off better than Henry C!)

Yes.

She was very lucky to have two good options.

 

[pianistclare]

I’m experiencing the same thing. Though single, I’m just now old enough where I notice that nearly every woman within a few years of my age looks older than I do. Sometimes way older. Its seems only Asian women my age still look younger than they are. Dunno if that’s a function of the area I live in or what. Hence my target demographic for dating and marriage is several years younger though I don’t think I’d go for 15 or more years age difference.

How old do you think you look? Just curious.

 

[Xantippe]

How old do you think you look? Just curious.

Allowing for ethnic origin, parental status, drug and alcohol use, outdoor lifestyle, and tanning habits, I do find that people are more or less the age I expect them to be.

(I think a person might have difficulty figuring out whether my sister or I was older, but one of us has spent a lot of time outdoors and the other is religious about sun hats, and it’s only a 3.5 year gap in any case.)

 

[ToeInTheWater]

If men are successfully married to women older than themselves, that’s okay by me, I don’t have a problem with that if they don’t. I knew a guy who married someone 14 years older. Lost contact with them long ago so I don’t know how it’s working out for them now. My problem is that even if a woman my age or older is attractive, she almost invariably will not have my energy levels. I go social dancing a few times a month, that’s my fun hobby, it beats drinking in a bar and it keeps me out of trouble. Strictly anecdotal of course, but I’ve only met one woman my age and one woman older than me who could keep up, the woman my age is married so she’s off limits, the older woman is too close to my mother in age, she looks it and that is not attractive to me at all. Don’t get me wrong, I love my mother, but I’m not looking to date her friends and I will not apologize for that.

I wasn’t suggesting that you should apologize for not wanting to date women old enough to be your mother. I don’t think most women are comfortable dating men old enough to be their fathers, either.

However, your first post about this seemed to imply that (1) you are extremely turned off by the idea of dating women who are older than you at all, not just those old enough to be your mother, and (2) that this preference was based primarily on looks, since you stated that you don’t even want to date women who LOOK older than you, regardless of whether they actually are. You didn’t mention anything about women being able to “keep up” with your lifestyle in your original post, just looks.

And yes, I do realize that physical attraction is important in relationships to some extent. But some of your comments remind me of men who prefer younger women so much, that they will actually “trade in” their wives for younger models once she gets too old to be attractive to them, something which strikes me as not that far from actual pedophilia.

ETA: NOT saying you are like that personally. Just that SOME men who prefer younger women are.

 

[runwaymodel]

I always date men 15-20 years older and I’m in my 20s. However, that’s because I’m already very accomplished and well traveled on my own and I feel like I’m on a different level intellectually and financially than my peers who are just coming out of college or still live with roommates. I need a man who is stable, secure, mature, confident, established and ready to settle down. Most people my age are not.

 

[Xantippe]

I wasn’t suggesting that you should apologize for not wanting to date women old enough to be your mother. I don’t think most women are comfortable dating men old enough to be their fathers, either.

However, your first post about this seemed to imply that (1) you are extremely turned off by the idea of dating women who are older than you at all, not just those old enough to be your mother, and (2) that this preference was based primarily on looks, since you stated that you don’t even want to date women who LOOK older than you, regardless of whether they actually are. You didn’t mention anything about women being able to “keep up” with your lifestyle in your original post, just looks.

And yes, I do realize that physical attraction is important in relationships to some extent. But some of your comments remind me of men who prefer younger women so much, that they will actually “trade in” their wives for younger models once she gets too old to be attractive to them, something which strikes me as not that far from actual pedophilia.

ETA: NOT saying you are like that personally. Just that SOME men who prefer younger women are.

There can also be some denial with regard to one’s own actual appearance to others and perhaps denial of one’s age, the mechanics of the aging process, and perhaps a big heaping helping of fear of mortality. Everybody else is getting older, but we are as youthful as ever. Yeah, right.

 

[Bonnie]

There can also be some denial with regard to one’s own actual appearance to others and perhaps denial of one’s age, the mechanics of the aging process, and perhaps a big heaping helping of fear of mortality. Everybody else is getting older, but we are as youthful as ever. Yeah, right.

Does THAT ever hit home! Husband & I were in deep denial until recently. We suddenly realized how old we are & how difficult running a small hobby farm with an unfinished house was becoming. So we’re selling out & moving to what we’ve taken to calling our “old-age” home. Haven’t quite found it yet, but we’re getting close.

Anyone want to buy a hobby farm with an unfinished house?

 

[AnneTeresa]

My husband is ten years older, nearly eleven. Although we are in many ways compatible, health has become more of an issue as we are getting older. You don’t go through the same life stages at the same time with this large an age gap, which is sometimes hard in terms of understanding each other. In some ways I feel we are on the verge of being in different generations-- I realize you can’t have children at age 10/11 so it’s not really a different generation-- but that ten years can make a big difference if your life experiences have been quite different (he went to war, I went to college).

I don’t think an age difference is a moral issue, more an issue of long-term compatibility. But there’s no saying you couldn’t be compatible with a large age difference at first and then not be so compatible decades later when you have both changed. But that’s all part of marriage, you just don’t know what will happen down the road.

All this related to American culture, I know it is quite different in countries with arranged marriages where a large age gap is common.

 

[DaveBj]

snip

ETA: And come to mention it, DaveBJ, 1) are you implying that you are the ONLY 70 year old in existence who is as healthy and active as a 40 year old? 2) Why are you dismissing the idea that there might be women closer to you in age who are also healthy and active?

1. By no means. But I can go out on a 21-mile bicycle ride on hilly Alabama roads and bring it home in less than an hour and a half. There are people my age who can do that, but they are few and far between. The percentage of 40-year-olds who can keep up with me is certainly higher, but I’d be surprised if it was out of single digits. Why do I beat myself up like this? Because as my wife’s health (COPD and diabetes) deteriorates, I’ll need to be increasingly fit to do the physical work that will be necessary to take care of her.
2. I’m not dismissing that idea, but in rural Alabama women who my age who can keep up with me are extremely rare. Eligible Catholic women my age who can keep up with me? Kidding, right?

I would point out that this is all extremely hypothetical. My wife is still very much alive. Also, I did say that I would probably not remarry. Overall, marriage has not been a fun gig for me, and it’s not one that I would look forward to repeating.

Oh, and all the Austen references? Let’s bear in mind that these are fictional depictions, which, even if they are a faithful representation of societal reality, deal with the aristocracy, not real people.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

It is indeed interesting that many of the men who have expressed a preference for younger women have described themselves as young for their age. Of course, they only retain the GOOD aspects of youth, physical vigor and vitality, and have long passed by the less positive aspects of immaturity, inexperience, selfishness, etc. Or have they?

Let’s just say that this discussion hasn’t made me that much more eager to consider older men who strongly prefer younger women. As opposed to a man who just happens to be older, and other than that is compatible in terms of personality, values, etc. I’d certainly consider such a relationship. But one in which I’m basically being used to satisfy a fetish? No thanks.

Also, please note that I’m not holding to a double standard here. I don’t think all women who marry younger men are “cougars” driven primarily by what’s essentially a sexual fetish, certainly I wouldn’t call the actual women I know who did marry younger men to be “cougars”.

While I don’t tend to be attracted to younger men, I certainly wouldn’t rule out dating a younger man, depending on his maturity level. But I actually do know a number of younger men in their twenties through family friends, many of those I’ve known since they were kids, and even if I didn’t see them as quasi-nephews meaning dating them would feel almost incestuous, they certainly strike as way too immature for me to date.

 

[MJJean]

You know, come to think of it, I’d also LOVE to hear from people in relationships where the wife is actually older than the husband, as such an age gap seems even more taboo than the opposite.

My mother was 7 years and a few months older than my step-dad. They met when he was 21 and she just about to turn 29. They were together for 18 years (they never married, but were “engaged” the whole time ) when Mom passed. Mom looked young for her age and she preferred to be friends with people who were much younger than she was, so I don’t think many folks even realized there was an age gap.